The GT 2/3 thread... But it's not!
Discussion
Ok, hear me out here....
Everyone is raving about prices at the moment, and everyone is probably thoroughly bored of hearing about how much this car is worth today blah blah blah...
For those of us who would actually just want to drive them, rarther than use them as an investment vehicle ( I thankyou
, it must be at the point now where you could buy a base model C2 (or turbo for the GT2) 996 or 997, and build your own GT car?
Let's face it, with a bit of mild tuning the C2 engine could produce very similar power to the GT3, and apart from that everything else is pretty much interchangeable! The 996 GT3 kit was fitted to plenty of base model cars, so a bit of work with the spanners to strip the interior, upgrade the brakes & suspension & you have a GT3 in all but logbook!
Turbos to GT2 is even easier as you already have the engine, just a few body mods & a bit of stripping out & you are there!
Both cases would see you with a near identical car for half the cash imho....
Flame suit on
Everyone is raving about prices at the moment, and everyone is probably thoroughly bored of hearing about how much this car is worth today blah blah blah...
For those of us who would actually just want to drive them, rarther than use them as an investment vehicle ( I thankyou
, it must be at the point now where you could buy a base model C2 (or turbo for the GT2) 996 or 997, and build your own GT car? Let's face it, with a bit of mild tuning the C2 engine could produce very similar power to the GT3, and apart from that everything else is pretty much interchangeable! The 996 GT3 kit was fitted to plenty of base model cars, so a bit of work with the spanners to strip the interior, upgrade the brakes & suspension & you have a GT3 in all but logbook!
Turbos to GT2 is even easier as you already have the engine, just a few body mods & a bit of stripping out & you are there!
Both cases would see you with a near identical car for half the cash imho....
Flame suit on
RWD cossie wil said:
The 996 GT3 kit was fitted to plenty of base model cars, so a bit of work with the spanners to strip the interior, upgrade the brakes & suspension & you have a GT3 in all but logbook!
The 996 GT3 Kit?to what are you refering? The aero kit?
I cant see any way of creating a GT3 in all but log book for a lot more money than buying a genuine gt3.
It's doable...
What you're essentially looking to do is have a road going version of Pete Morris's PCGB championship winning car? EMC. Strasse and the other usual suspects will be able to do that for you. The Aerokit is the least of the problems.
With the price of the base cars tumbling I can't why you wouldn't be able to do it.
Even 997's are down to the price where a suitable amount of modifying is acceptable with only a modicum of man maths.
I'm off to the classifieds....
What you're essentially looking to do is have a road going version of Pete Morris's PCGB championship winning car? EMC. Strasse and the other usual suspects will be able to do that for you. The Aerokit is the least of the problems.
With the price of the base cars tumbling I can't why you wouldn't be able to do it.
Even 997's are down to the price where a suitable amount of modifying is acceptable with only a modicum of man maths.
I'm off to the classifieds....
Nurburgsingh said:
It's doable...
What you're essentially looking to do is have a road going version of Pete Morris's PCGB championship winning car? EMC. Strasse and the other usual suspects will be able to do that for you. The Aerokit is the least of the problems.
With the price of the base cars tumbling I can't why you wouldn't be able to do it.
Even 997's are down to the price where a suitable amount of modifying is acceptable with only a modicum of man maths.
I'm off to the classifieds....
and wheres the gt3 engine coming from to go in it?What you're essentially looking to do is have a road going version of Pete Morris's PCGB championship winning car? EMC. Strasse and the other usual suspects will be able to do that for you. The Aerokit is the least of the problems.
With the price of the base cars tumbling I can't why you wouldn't be able to do it.
Even 997's are down to the price where a suitable amount of modifying is acceptable with only a modicum of man maths.
I'm off to the classifieds....
EMC will do you an uprated 996 engine... Granted it won't be a GT3 engine but that's not what the OP was talking about.. He wants a modified 996. All of the driving fun of a gt3 but without the expense of buying a real one.
It's no different to all of these 'no expense spared' 964RS clones that still have sunroofs! None of them have an RS engine.. Doesn't detract from what they are aiming to achieve. A stripped out 911 that's got a bit more grunt than standard and has some choice suspension and brake upgrades to make it handle better. GT3 coffin arms and some KW's etc..
It's no different to all of these 'no expense spared' 964RS clones that still have sunroofs! None of them have an RS engine.. Doesn't detract from what they are aiming to achieve. A stripped out 911 that's got a bit more grunt than standard and has some choice suspension and brake upgrades to make it handle better. GT3 coffin arms and some KW's etc..
Alrhough a 996 platform would be affordable, if you were looking to upgrade it to give GT3 performance IT would be a very expensive build and even then, without the M engine it would be a long way from the GT3 experience.
As said earlier, it is relatively easy and inexpensive to upgrade a 993 or 964 C2 to RS spec ( I'm building a 964 now) because the base car shares the majority of the major components. It's different with the GT3 as it is a very different car by comparison to the cooking 996.
On saying that, if you lower your expectations, a nice track car could be built - again as said earlier - along the lines of the Porsche club 996 cars. To give this some perspective, a relatively stock 996 GT3 wearing the same rubber as a 996 prepped for the Porsche championship would be as quick if not quicker. The times that we did with the 996RS on JRZ and Pirelli slicks would have confortably put it on pole at a Porsche Club event.
Its a shame that 993 and 964 C2's are so difficult to get cheaply these days, they would be a better bet for a base car
As said earlier, it is relatively easy and inexpensive to upgrade a 993 or 964 C2 to RS spec ( I'm building a 964 now) because the base car shares the majority of the major components. It's different with the GT3 as it is a very different car by comparison to the cooking 996.
On saying that, if you lower your expectations, a nice track car could be built - again as said earlier - along the lines of the Porsche club 996 cars. To give this some perspective, a relatively stock 996 GT3 wearing the same rubber as a 996 prepped for the Porsche championship would be as quick if not quicker. The times that we did with the 996RS on JRZ and Pirelli slicks would have confortably put it on pole at a Porsche Club event.
Its a shame that 993 and 964 C2's are so difficult to get cheaply these days, they would be a better bet for a base car
Some are already doing it. Not a GT3 replica as such. More a 996 fettled for the track. PHer Sifly has done one:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
As Steve says cheap 964C2s are no longer available so I think we'll see more 996 transformations as time goes on.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
As Steve says cheap 964C2s are no longer available so I think we'll see more 996 transformations as time goes on.
Steve Rance said:
The times that we did with the 996RS on JRZ and Pirelli slicks would have confortably put it on pole at a Porsche Club event.
I get your point and haven't checked the lap times but bear in mind that the race cars are limited to standard bhp, whereas without that restriction another, what 20-30bhp? is possible for not much money and would narrow the gap somewhat.I haven't driven either extensively but between driving Mike from Sports and Classic's modified GT3 round Silverstone GP in August and the Hartech 911 Club racer (which when fighting fit was the quickest Club 911) in October, the race car felt more exciting, and left me with a bigger smile on my face, perhaps because it also felt like getting used to it and fully up to speed would take a little time, whereas with that GT3 it felt easier to get more out of it straight off (although it was hampered by a little understeer, apparently a virtue of the Cup 2 tyres which can be dialled out). I wouldn't want to drive the race car to Spa though....
If you're doing the work yourself I guess you could have a good 996 track car with rebuilt engine for £20-25k, an ex-race car may start from a similar price, with more mods but less fresh. On a bang for your buck scale compared to other 911's that's not a lot of money these days.
I agree in a lot of ways Wil but I think it would only ever be 90% as good as the original, as it will be all the little parts that add to the complete package.
The worry would be the same as what we both found out with Escort Cosworths you can spend 30K on a car making it faster/handle but a good standard car will be worth more and easier to sell on in the future.
My own car looks like a GT2, has more power than a standard GT2 and arguably has better suspension and brakes as well (Motons and 380mm 6 pots all round ), but I know that a real GT2 would feel more special to own and drive . On the other hand it cost than half of what a similar GT2 would cost
The worry would be the same as what we both found out with Escort Cosworths you can spend 30K on a car making it faster/handle but a good standard car will be worth more and easier to sell on in the future.
My own car looks like a GT2, has more power than a standard GT2 and arguably has better suspension and brakes as well (Motons and 380mm 6 pots all round ), but I know that a real GT2 would feel more special to own and drive . On the other hand it cost than half of what a similar GT2 would cost
This thread overlaps with a discussion we had in JP's thread over his Cayman mods.
In there I discussed an M9X engine I built out to near enough 4L in proper race spec as an exercise to see just what it could be capable of. It featured many custom parts, lightened everything and had its robustness addressed at the same time. There was no compromise given in selecting parts, everything was given over to performance and it gave nearly 400HP when run in. Engine build cost was as much as a full Mezger rebuild - miles into the 5 figure territory.
Heres the dyno plot from the other thread too. These are raw dyno numbers.
Two points were of interest from driving this engine once it was completed. The engine character was more like a turbo diesel than what I would call a sports car engine despite the engine being built to be as nimble as could be; and despite the engine being massively faster than other M9X engines it still couldn't out punch a mezger engine even with the latter having less power.
From my experience (including the above engine exercise), I would argue that the best approach to fun in the C2 type range is to be had by dropping weight, improving the sense of occasion from the drivers seat and enhancing what is there to begin with. There are a bunch of swappable parts from the Cups and GT3 range that can be carried across allowing one to bring out more of the car without reducing quality or forcing one to make hard design choices.
There is a huge amount of potential in these cars and massive amounts of scope to take it in any direction you choose applying the same thinking and approach used in the air cooled scene.
For my money though, doing stuff with the engine is not the way to go despite the attractions it offers when looking at it from ones sofa. If you absolutely must have more power then you should be thinking about going a different route altogether.
In there I discussed an M9X engine I built out to near enough 4L in proper race spec as an exercise to see just what it could be capable of. It featured many custom parts, lightened everything and had its robustness addressed at the same time. There was no compromise given in selecting parts, everything was given over to performance and it gave nearly 400HP when run in. Engine build cost was as much as a full Mezger rebuild - miles into the 5 figure territory.
Heres the dyno plot from the other thread too. These are raw dyno numbers.
Two points were of interest from driving this engine once it was completed. The engine character was more like a turbo diesel than what I would call a sports car engine despite the engine being built to be as nimble as could be; and despite the engine being massively faster than other M9X engines it still couldn't out punch a mezger engine even with the latter having less power.
From my experience (including the above engine exercise), I would argue that the best approach to fun in the C2 type range is to be had by dropping weight, improving the sense of occasion from the drivers seat and enhancing what is there to begin with. There are a bunch of swappable parts from the Cups and GT3 range that can be carried across allowing one to bring out more of the car without reducing quality or forcing one to make hard design choices.
There is a huge amount of potential in these cars and massive amounts of scope to take it in any direction you choose applying the same thinking and approach used in the air cooled scene.
For my money though, doing stuff with the engine is not the way to go despite the attractions it offers when looking at it from ones sofa. If you absolutely must have more power then you should be thinking about going a different route altogether.
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