Discussion
GregorFuk said:
Unfortunately yes. He's been banned, un-banned, and re-banned from various Lotus forums over the years. Don't let him bend you out of shape.
As explained previously, I'm not going to be concerned by what 'a man on then intenet' said about me.Shame really, as understanding peoples' opinions on the Turbo v GT3 debate is interesting (until I drove a GT3, I'd always envisaged moving up from the 4S to a turbo rather than a GT3) and his extreme Lotus is worthy of further discussion.
I really don't understand the posturing and point scoring that goes on in forums.
Forums should be like a virtual pub, somewhere you can sit down and relax and have a pint talking to strangers about a common shared interest.
A point we would all do well to remember is this - Would you say, what you are about to say, face to face to the bloke in the pub?
If the answer is no then don't post!
Forums should be like a virtual pub, somewhere you can sit down and relax and have a pint talking to strangers about a common shared interest.
A point we would all do well to remember is this - Would you say, what you are about to say, face to face to the bloke in the pub?
If the answer is no then don't post!
sidicks said:
Isn't the power to weight ratio very close (and surely that's what is relevant on a track, not torque?) and the (10%+ ??) lighter weight will be beneficial under braking.
4wd and torque will make the turbo s a lot quicker on corner exit one assumes. the turbo s also brakes extraordinarily well for a 1700kg car from what I remember. It is quite interesting that both cars have ended up very similar in performance but perhaps it shouldn't have been such a surprise if one thinks about it. Both cars are 2 sides of the same coin - Porsche's attempt to out-GTR the GTR and just approach the same objective differently. Very impressive in it's own way all the electronic calibration has delivered the performance so differently in the 2 cars as well.
isaldiri said:
4wd and torque will make the turbo s a lot quicker on corner exit one assumes. the turbo s also brakes extraordinarily well for a 1700kg car from what I remember.
In the wet, yes, but in the dry I doubt the GT3 struggles for grip.But surely it's power (to weight) that's relevant, not torque, else the Pannamera Diesel would be up there too!
isaldri said:
It is quite interesting that both cars have ended up very similar in performance but perhaps it shouldn't have been such a surprise if one thinks about it. Both cars are 2 sides of the same coin - Porsche's attempt to out-GTR the GTR and just approach the same objective differently. Very impressive in it's own way all the electronic calibration has delivered the performance so differently in the 2 cars as well.
The Turbo does have more extremes rear wheel steer which might help. I certainly think that most people would be quicker in the Turbo than the GT3, but you are right that they are closely matched (in good conditions) yet have very a different philosophy behind them!sidicks said:
In the wet, yes, but in the dry I doubt the GT3 struggles for grip.
But surely it's power (to weight) that's relevant, not torque, else the Pannamera Diesel would be up there too!
Obviously power to weight is relevant but given the 2 cars are pretty close, the one with (rather a lot) more torque should have the advantage, at least on corner exit. But surely it's power (to weight) that's relevant, not torque, else the Pannamera Diesel would be up there too!
Incidentially just had a look at the sportauto supertests and it's somewhat extraordinary that on braking, the turbo s was more or less the same as the gt3 100-0 and outperformed on 200-0. The dunlop tyre probably is a stickier one than the cup2 though I would have to assume...
isaldiri said:
Obviously power to weight is relevant but given the 2 cars are pretty close, the one with (rather a lot) more torque should have the advantage, at least on corner exit.
Can you explain this? Surely acceleration is primarily driven by power - as long as the GT3 is in the right gear (which might be 1 or 2 lower than the GT3) then it is power to weight that is important.Isn't the superior 0-60mph of the Turbo primarily due to 4WD rather than torque?
isaldri said:
Incidentially just had a look at the sportauto supertests and it's somewhat extraordinary that on braking, the turbo s was more or less the same as the gt3 100-0 and outperformed on 200-0. The dunlop tyre probably is a stickier one than the cup2 though I would have to assume...
I remember that test - the Turbo S performance was phenomenal!sidicks said:
But surely it's power (to weight) that's relevant, not torque, else the Pannamera Diesel would be up there too!
The power curve is just a mathematical interpretation of the torque curve so it is the torque curve of the 991 turbo S from 5500 to 7200rpm which shapes the power curve over these 1700rpm and on the turbo S this means over 510PS between 5500 and 7200rpm. In contrast the nat aspirated GT3 makes over 450hp between 7500 and 8500rpm.People get confused with peak power numbers and it's one reason people say Porsche underquote their power figures, they don't under quote the peaks (by much) but they have bigger areas under the curves which make for better performance (than rival brands)
Track times for the Turbo S and GT3 are very similar despite the different approaches. I suspect the average driver (like me) would probably go quicker in the Turbo than a GT3, especially if you add wet weather into the mix. I've never driven a 991TS, but having had a 997 GT2, I found it nowhere near as satisfying to drive as a GT3, whereas others swear by a GT2. I guess, like PDK, it depends on the type of driving you do and driving style.
TB993tt said:
The power curve is just a mathematical interpretation of the torque curve so it is the torque curve of the 991 turbo S from 5500 to 7200rpm which shapes the power curve over these 1700rpm and on the turbo S this means over 510PS between 5500 and 7200rpm. In contrast the nat aspirated GT3 makes over 450hp between 7500 and 8500rpm.
People get confused with peak power numbers and it's one reason people say Porsche underquote their power figures, they don't under quote the peaks (by much) but they have bigger areas under the curves which make for better performance (than rival brands)
Thanks for that.People get confused with peak power numbers and it's one reason people say Porsche underquote their power figures, they don't under quote the peaks (by much) but they have bigger areas under the curves which make for better performance (than rival brands)
But if the GT3 is circa 10% lighter with 10% less power doesn't that suggest that, in the right rev range, they will accelerate similarly quickly?!
Obviously I accept that if you left both cars in (say) 3rd gear, the Turbo would annihilate the GT3!
Edited by sidicks on Monday 30th March 11:30
A lot depends on how the tts driven, it will learn driving style and allow a higher boost...the restricting part on the TTS is the Pzero when on track, not good....very hard to keep the pressures down, if you are not careful they just fall apart.
Massive torque on the TTS, despite onl6 6 pot, more than the turbo V8 on the P1, kers aside
TTS on MPSCs, very very fast on track, in dry that is
Massive torque on the TTS, despite onl6 6 pot, more than the turbo V8 on the P1, kers aside
TTS on MPSCs, very very fast on track, in dry that is
I seem to recall Walter doing a video with a German mag a few years back, in a GT3 vs Turbo comparison and his conclusion was (for him) GT3 for the track, Turbo for the road. Now those were 7.2's, but the engine 'characteristics' and delivery differences won't be hugely different between the two 7.2's and the two 991's, but that comparison is no doubt further complicated by the PDK (S, yes I know! 
) in the 991?
For me, both cars are a bit irrelevant as other than on track, airfield or unlimited Autobahn, you can't get anywhere near their performance potential and would probably get around as quickly and with as much fun in a base Boxster (so why did I go for a CS)? That said, nice 'problem' to have, if you own either of the cars in question!
) in the 991?For me, both cars are a bit irrelevant as other than on track, airfield or unlimited Autobahn, you can't get anywhere near their performance potential and would probably get around as quickly and with as much fun in a base Boxster (so why did I go for a CS)? That said, nice 'problem' to have, if you own either of the cars in question!
V8KSN said:
Forums should be like a virtual pub, somewhere you can sit down and relax and have a pint talking to strangers about a common shared interest.
A point we would all do well to remember is this - Would you say, what you are about to say, face to face to the bloke in the pub?
If the answer is no then don't post!
A point we would all do well to remember is this - Would you say, what you are about to say, face to face to the bloke in the pub?
If the answer is no then don't post!
APOLO1 said:
A lot depends on how the tts driven, it will learn driving style and allow a higher boost...the restricting part on the TTS is the Pzero when on track, not good....very hard to keep the pressures down, if you are not careful they just fall apart.
Massive torque on the TTS, despite onl6 6 pot, more than the turbo V8 on the P1, kers aside
TTS on MPSCs, very very fast on track, in dry that is
Yes tyres are a very big factor. Both cars on Sport Cups, you would expect the turbo S to be quicker in most situations.Massive torque on the TTS, despite onl6 6 pot, more than the turbo V8 on the P1, kers aside
TTS on MPSCs, very very fast on track, in dry that is
V8KSN said:
I really don't understand the posturing and point scoring that goes on in forums.
Forums should be like a virtual pub, somewhere you can sit down and relax and have a pint talking to strangers about a common shared interest.
A point we would all do well to remember is this - Would you say, what you are about to say, face to face to the bloke in the pub?
If the answer is no then don't post!
how big the bloke? and does he have any friends with him? Forums should be like a virtual pub, somewhere you can sit down and relax and have a pint talking to strangers about a common shared interest.
A point we would all do well to remember is this - Would you say, what you are about to say, face to face to the bloke in the pub?
If the answer is no then don't post!
MollyGT3 said:
V8KSN said:
Forums should be like a virtual pub, somewhere you can sit down and relax and have a pint talking to strangers about a common shared interest.
A point we would all do well to remember is this - Would you say, what you are about to say, face to face to the bloke in the pub?
If the answer is no then don't post!
A point we would all do well to remember is this - Would you say, what you are about to say, face to face to the bloke in the pub?
If the answer is no then don't post!
Being banned on forums yeah so what... It's like this, imagine you're the new kid in school and the school bully tries to take your lunch money, so you break his nose and they suspend you for not taking crap from bullies....
Now enough of this..
It's the torque that makes all the difference in my driving world. You can't run the canyons at 7,000rpm with a limited torque curve all day as you would on a track in a GT3 and that's why the car failed my expectations of being the car to have...
The S has the perfect torque curve for the canyons add massive grip to use it, that's what makes it the perfect car...
Don't cry if I talk about Lotus performance vs Porsche since I have both and speak from experience...
I played with the suspension and shifting settings while running with a few R1s in the twisties and found it hard to beat the Sport and Auto shifting of the S.
Every time I was about to make a shift up or down the Auto box was right there anticipating my next move.
It's torque that pulls you out of a tight corner, it's horse power the gets you there...
The Turbo does both better than the GT3 in the real world...just sayin
Edited by the ronin on Monday 30th March 16:16
the ronin said:
Right on the money...
Being banned on forums yeah so what... It's like this, imagine you're the new kid in school and the school bully tries to take your lunch money, so you break his nose and they suspend you for not taking crap from bullies....
Now enough of this..
It's the torque that makes all the difference in my driving world. You can't run the canyons at 7,000rpm with a limited torque curve all day as you would on a track in a GT3 and that's why the car failed my expectations of being the car to have...
The S has the perfect torque curve for the canyons add massive grip to use it, that's what makes it the perfect car...
Don't cry if I talk about Lotus performance vs Porsche since I have both and speak from experience...
I played with the suspension and shifting settings while running with a few R1s in the twisties and found it hard to beat the Sport and Auto shifting of the S.
Every time I was about to make a shift up or down the Auto box was right there anticipating my next move.
It's torque that pulls you out of a tight corner, it's horse power the gets you there...
The Turbo does both better than the GT3 in the real world...just sayin
having done well over 30 track days in GT3s, and about 7 or more over 20k miles in TTS I agree with you..........But the GT3 is much more rewarding to drive on track...Being banned on forums yeah so what... It's like this, imagine you're the new kid in school and the school bully tries to take your lunch money, so you break his nose and they suspend you for not taking crap from bullies....
Now enough of this..
It's the torque that makes all the difference in my driving world. You can't run the canyons at 7,000rpm with a limited torque curve all day as you would on a track in a GT3 and that's why the car failed my expectations of being the car to have...
The S has the perfect torque curve for the canyons add massive grip to use it, that's what makes it the perfect car...
Don't cry if I talk about Lotus performance vs Porsche since I have both and speak from experience...
I played with the suspension and shifting settings while running with a few R1s in the twisties and found it hard to beat the Sport and Auto shifting of the S.
Every time I was about to make a shift up or down the Auto box was right there anticipating my next move.
It's torque that pulls you out of a tight corner, it's horse power the gets you there...
The Turbo does both better than the GT3 in the real world...just sayin
Edited by the ronin on Monday 30th March 16:16
if you get the chance try and have drive or px in a 918, it moves in a whole new performance range, 1400nms of torque.....
APOLO1 said:
having done well over 30 track days in GT3s, and about 7 or more over 20k miles in TTS I agree with you..........But the GT3 is much more rewarding to drive on track...
if you get the chance try and have drive or px in a 918, it moves in a whole new performance range, 1400nms of torque.....
Dream garage - 991 GT3, 991 TTS & the 918. if you get the chance try and have drive or px in a 918, it moves in a whole new performance range, 1400nms of torque.....
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