Discussion
sidicks said:
IMIA said:
Sidicks you are so arrogant and defensive about your own choice of steed its beyond comprehension.
What is arrogant about expecting people to base their opinions on genuine experience?IMIA said:
why is Ronins point of view not based on genuine experience? The guys the real deal petrolhead and his opinions seem perfectly valid and based on his own experiences. You'd get in an argument with yourself if left in a room on your own sir.
1) I'd suggest that a few hours of driving is hardly sufficient to make a credible judgement2) Comments like this suggest a severe lack of understanding about how to drive a GT3:
"I also know there is no GT3 that can even come close in the canyons where midrange torque is needed on corner exit. The GT3 has none."
"and I really like my 991 Turbo S with it's 553 ft tq at 2,100rpm...vs...325 ft tq at 6,250rpm of the GT3"
Given his obvious understanding of engineering in his Lotus, the above quote is hard to understand.
He has also claimed:
"I said the 991 GT3 sucks in the canyons and in general as a road car..."
and
"I know guys that pay big bucks for crap will never admit they are wrong and so they smile on the outside all the while frowning on the inside..
It appears that he didn't understand what a GT3 is about, hence the apparent surprise that the car is not a relaxed daily driver...
Clearly if you want a high torque, low revving engine then the Turbo S is a better choice than the GT3 - I'm not sure you would need to drive the cars to understand that!
Edited by sidicks on Sunday 29th March 13:10
sidicks said:
No naivety required.
If someone is posting drivel purely to try and wind someone else up, then that just destroys the forum for everyone and really is school playground stuff.
Much more useful for those who have experience of different cars to post their views and interesting comparisons (I'd be really interested to the views of people who own 991 GT3s and who have previously owned earlier versions - in particular their opinions of where the new car is better and worse than earlier versions - rather than the constant nonsense from people who haven't driven the new car about how it drives itself etc).
But I guess that's tpo much to ask.
The old car's are better. If someone is posting drivel purely to try and wind someone else up, then that just destroys the forum for everyone and really is school playground stuff.
Much more useful for those who have experience of different cars to post their views and interesting comparisons (I'd be really interested to the views of people who own 991 GT3s and who have previously owned earlier versions - in particular their opinions of where the new car is better and worse than earlier versions - rather than the constant nonsense from people who haven't driven the new car about how it drives itself etc).
But I guess that's tpo much to ask.
Alpinestars said:
sidicks said:
No naivety required.
If someone is posting drivel purely to try and wind someone else up, then that just destroys the forum for everyone and really is school playground stuff.
Much more useful for those who have experience of different cars to post their views and interesting comparisons (I'd be really interested to the views of people who own 991 GT3s and who have previously owned earlier versions - in particular their opinions of where the new car is better and worse than earlier versions - rather than the constant nonsense from people who haven't driven the new car about how it drives itself etc).
But I guess that's too much to ask.
The old car's are better. If someone is posting drivel purely to try and wind someone else up, then that just destroys the forum for everyone and really is school playground stuff.
Much more useful for those who have experience of different cars to post their views and interesting comparisons (I'd be really interested to the views of people who own 991 GT3s and who have previously owned earlier versions - in particular their opinions of where the new car is better and worse than earlier versions - rather than the constant nonsense from people who haven't driven the new car about how it drives itself etc).
But I guess that's too much to ask.
The bit in bold was sort of important!
sidicks said:
The bit in bold was sort of important!
In which areas do you think the cars differ?
Alpinestars said:
The new car is quicker, the old cars are far far more engaging. It's difficult to put engagement into words and particularly objective words but the old cars have better steering, better engine noise, feel more special, more raw. Only some of that is down to the manual box. No doubt the new car "performs" better, and I appreciate for some people that is the barometer. If you have to turn the wick up to 9 for a car to feel special, that's not special in my view. A special car is one that engages from the get go, and continues to engage all the way to 10.
Thanks - the steering has been commented on by many people and although the 991 has (apparently) very good steering feel for an electronic system it is universally acknowledged that the older system was better.I think that opinions on engine noise are more mixed.
:beer;
sidicks said:
The bit in bold was sort of important!
APOLO1 said:
Sid, this is so subjective, it almost impossible to answer, I agree that something has been lost with the new car over that old, but the new tech over the old, far outweighs this.......well that's my views after 6 RS40s, and well over 30 track days in 991Gt3s....oh, and over 30 years of driving 911s
Of course it will be subjective - that's what I'm interested in, why people have the opinions they do?!Clearly if the new car does some things better (and some things worse) than the old car then some people will naturally have a reference for one over the other.
APOLO1 said:
Sid, this is so subjective, it almost impossible to answer, I agree that something has been lost with the new car over that old, but the new tech over the old, far outweighs this.......well that's my views after 6 RS40s, and well over 30 track days in 991Gt3s....oh, and over 30 years of driving 911s
Of course you can compare. You can compare any 2 cars, by definition. Preferences are entirely different. sidicks said:
Thanks - the steering has been commented on by many people and although the 991 has (apparently) very good steering feel for an electronic system it is universally acknowledged that the older system was better.
I think that opinions on engine noise are more mixed.
:beer;
The thing with the noise is that in the new car it only comes alive at higher revs. It's a very ordinary sounding engine in the midrange. The old engine has much more character throughout. I appreciate that on full chat both are fantastic. I think that opinions on engine noise are more mixed.
:beer;
Alpinestars said:
Of course you can compare. You can compare any 2 cars, by definition. Preferences are entirely different.
I guess the point is that I asked for areas where one car is 'better' or 'worse' than the other, but this always going to be subjective - it is clear that in many cases the cars will simply be different and what is better or worse will be down to personal opinion or preference rather than objective fact.Alpinestars said:
The thing with the noise is that in the new car it only comes alive at higher revs. It's a very ordinary sounding engine in the midrange. The old engine has much more character throughout. I appreciate that on full chat both are fantastic.
The new car chatters and chunters at low revs too!Alpinestars said:
Serious question, what's your experience of the older cars and what would you highlight as the differences?
I've only driven the older cars at PEC Silverstone (997 GT3 and RS) and the older 911 models as part of the "911 through the ages" experience (or whatever it was called).That's why I don't claim to be able (and don't try) to make valid comparisons between the old and new cars (and why I challenge those who state opinions about the 991 GT3 where they haven't driven it properly).
And that's why I'm genuinely interested in comparisons from those who do have that experience - Macca's posts have been particularly informative in this regard.
Edited by sidicks on Sunday 29th March 14:34
Callughan said:
When I drove the new turbo S I was naturally in awe and taken back, first turbo that I had driven that made feel that way, the previous versions to me were lifeless. I also liked the GT3 but didn't make the first impression the turbo S had.
Everyone has different trigger points.
I wasn't going to post on this thread, but Callughan has taken the words out of my mouth . Everyone has different trigger points.
For past 7 yrs I've had either a 996 Clubsport . 997 Clubsport , Cayman R or 991 Clubsport in the garage . Sold the 991 after 1600miles with a feeling it was a bit over hyped . Great car , no doubt about it but I expected more .
Never been impressed with turbos , then I test drove a Turbo S a few weeks later and was blown away . If I could face the depreciation there'd be one in the garage , but I cant . But that doesn't mean it's not a great car and for the 1st time in several years my pick over a GT3 putting ownership costs to one side .
Lack of torque and incorrect gear selection ( generally to aggressive ) were my issues . Neither A problem if going flat out at a track day , but a pain for fast road use . All just my opinion of course ........
Edit : lack of torque as always been a point with GT cars so I'm not sure why I found it more noticeable on the 991 ?
Edited by GT3cs on Sunday 29th March 14:37
GT3cs said:
I wasn't going to post on this thread, but Callughan has taken the words out of my mouth .
For past 7 yrs I've had either a 996 Clubsport . 997 Clubsport , Cayman R or 991 Clubsport in the garage . Sold the 991 after 1600miles with a feeling it was a bit over hyped . Great car , no doubt about it but I expected more .
Never been impressed with turbos , then I test drove a Turbo S a few weeks later and was blown away . If I could face the depreciation there'd be one in the garage , but I cant . But that doesn't mean it's not a great car and for the 1st time in several years my pick over a GT3 putting ownership costs to one side .
Lack of torque and incorrect gear selection ( generally to aggressive ) were my issues . Neither A problem if going flat out at a track day , but a pain for fast road use . All just my opioion of course ........
The former is surely just a function of being in the right gear at the right time, isn't it? Or do you just mean that you have to drive the GT3 aggressively to get the most out of it? How is that different to the previous generations - surely they had similar torque and needed to be revved to perform?For past 7 yrs I've had either a 996 Clubsport . 997 Clubsport , Cayman R or 991 Clubsport in the garage . Sold the 991 after 1600miles with a feeling it was a bit over hyped . Great car , no doubt about it but I expected more .
Never been impressed with turbos , then I test drove a Turbo S a few weeks later and was blown away . If I could face the depreciation there'd be one in the garage , but I cant . But that doesn't mean it's not a great car and for the 1st time in several years my pick over a GT3 putting ownership costs to one side .
Lack of torque and incorrect gear selection ( generally to aggressive ) were my issues . Neither A problem if going flat out at a track day , but a pain for fast road use . All just my opioion of course ........
edited to add, I've just seen your edit!
Similarly, in terms of gear selection was it the manual mode or auto mode you didn't like with the PDK?
To emphasis the point, I'm not challenging your opinions, just trying to understand them...!!
PS - As an all round car, I'd find it hard to fault the Turbo S.
Edited by sidicks on Sunday 29th March 14:46
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