997 engine failure
Discussion
Very inconvenient.
Shot in the dark diagnosis based on the OP's description in post 1.
Engine sounds like one that has run low on lubricant or did not have sufficient in it in the first place. Known of two instances of the latter after pro engine work.
At any stage before the engine problems, did you check the fluid levels?
I took delivery of a new car and before driving away checked the levels. The cooling system had been over filled leaving no room for coolant expansion as engine warms up. Asking for trouble. Who checks things on a new car? I do now. Some years before, drove away new car on day one and had hardly gone five miles when lots of steam from bonnet. A coolant hose had not been fastened properly. Nasty and very inconvenient at the time.
Acquaintance paid £800 to have the gearbox repaired. Showed me the Invoice. Car drove well for two months when several gears lost drive. They actually lost teeth as the box had next to no lubricant in it. The first long run the box over heated ~ lots of blue components from excessive heat!
Shot in the dark diagnosis based on the OP's description in post 1.
Engine sounds like one that has run low on lubricant or did not have sufficient in it in the first place. Known of two instances of the latter after pro engine work.
At any stage before the engine problems, did you check the fluid levels?
I took delivery of a new car and before driving away checked the levels. The cooling system had been over filled leaving no room for coolant expansion as engine warms up. Asking for trouble. Who checks things on a new car? I do now. Some years before, drove away new car on day one and had hardly gone five miles when lots of steam from bonnet. A coolant hose had not been fastened properly. Nasty and very inconvenient at the time.
Acquaintance paid £800 to have the gearbox repaired. Showed me the Invoice. Car drove well for two months when several gears lost drive. They actually lost teeth as the box had next to no lubricant in it. The first long run the box over heated ~ lots of blue components from excessive heat!
The Mayonnaise like residue you describe is coolant mixed with oil, based on that and your description you are likely to find that one of the oil coolers has failed internally, causing a mixture of coolant and oil. This is quite a common Porsche issue affecting both sports cars and older Cayennes, we see a few of them in the workshop each year. Most of them arrive with symptoms of overheating and can be fixed before significant engine damage occurs.
Yours unfortunately sounds like the engine was run for too long with contaminated oil and has seized, most probably due to the crank bearings not having sufficient lubrication, which can only take a few miles of driving before damage occurs. We had a 996 in the workshop last month with exactly this issue and the first bearing to seize was one of the big end bearings and when the crank made its final spin it snapped the con rod and put it through the block, the unfortunate owner ended up putting a used replacement engine in the car as the most cost effective solution.
One interesting part of your storey would be the previous work on the head gaskets, why was it carried out? i.e. what was the reported fault? if it was also oil/ coolant mix, which could also occur with a head gasket failure, then it could be construed that the fault existed at the time you bought the car, making the dealer/ previous repairer liable for your current situation. Likewise the symptoms could come from a mistake in the previous repair.
I would talk to the supplying dealer and if you can get their commitment to repair then let them carry on, otherwise I would get the car looked at by an independent workshop to the supplying dealer to make sure you get an unbiased opinion on what has occurred and why.
Best of luck, these failure are unfortunately expensive if you have to pay the bill yourself.
Yours unfortunately sounds like the engine was run for too long with contaminated oil and has seized, most probably due to the crank bearings not having sufficient lubrication, which can only take a few miles of driving before damage occurs. We had a 996 in the workshop last month with exactly this issue and the first bearing to seize was one of the big end bearings and when the crank made its final spin it snapped the con rod and put it through the block, the unfortunate owner ended up putting a used replacement engine in the car as the most cost effective solution.
One interesting part of your storey would be the previous work on the head gaskets, why was it carried out? i.e. what was the reported fault? if it was also oil/ coolant mix, which could also occur with a head gasket failure, then it could be construed that the fault existed at the time you bought the car, making the dealer/ previous repairer liable for your current situation. Likewise the symptoms could come from a mistake in the previous repair.
I would talk to the supplying dealer and if you can get their commitment to repair then let them carry on, otherwise I would get the car looked at by an independent workshop to the supplying dealer to make sure you get an unbiased opinion on what has occurred and why.
Best of luck, these failure are unfortunately expensive if you have to pay the bill yourself.
Thanks for all the advice. In response to the last two replies, I had not driven the car for 3 weeks prior so before I left I checked the levels and added 1/4 litre of oil, there was no residue in the filler neck at this time and the levels were spot on when we left ( acheiving about 40mls) .
On the other point when I first looked to buy the car there was some straining from coolant present in the engine bay, when I queried this the dealer was open and honest that the car had overheated and pressurised when they had driven it and therefore went to porsche main agent for head gasket repairs, I saw the invoice for 3k but not in detail, I was told the bores were checked and given the all clear, so this was seen as a positive that the engine should be good.
The fateful day was the only time the car has done any significant distance and also on a fairly warm day, I can't imagine there was not some underlying fault from the previous repair or overheating problems, surely it's not too much to expect to be able to drive your 911 without the engine failing?
Whilst there is no further news yet, the supplying dealer is in contact and I hope some sort of resolution can be found !
On the other point when I first looked to buy the car there was some straining from coolant present in the engine bay, when I queried this the dealer was open and honest that the car had overheated and pressurised when they had driven it and therefore went to porsche main agent for head gasket repairs, I saw the invoice for 3k but not in detail, I was told the bores were checked and given the all clear, so this was seen as a positive that the engine should be good.
The fateful day was the only time the car has done any significant distance and also on a fairly warm day, I can't imagine there was not some underlying fault from the previous repair or overheating problems, surely it's not too much to expect to be able to drive your 911 without the engine failing?
Whilst there is no further news yet, the supplying dealer is in contact and I hope some sort of resolution can be found !
chocolatemonk said:
The fateful day was the only time the car has done any significant distance and also on a fairly warm day, I can't imagine there was not some underlying fault from the previous repair or overheating problems, surely it's not too much to expect to be able to drive your 911 without the engine failing?
So effectively the first real "shakedown" test since extensive engine repairs.I spend most of my time on Rover and MG enthusiasts sites. Time and again folks complain about those so called "failures" of the "They all do that" K-Series Cylinder Head Gaskets (CHG). Then go on to explain "But John, the car had been serviced only last week and the coolant renewed" ... The car then over heated on the first longish run after the repair.
Unless the cooling system is bled properly to exclude air where it should not be, then it's a matter of time before .... "failures". Sometimes the repair has not been completed correctly and things like Water Pumps not renewed at the same time. Worn Water pumps are a major root cause of CHG damage. They allow coolant to escape which on a longer run soon reaches critical level leading to overheating and guess what is the first thing damaged when the engine overheats.
Of course all the above may not apply to Porsche engines but, such coincidences happen all too frequently for them all to be simple coincidence, bad luck or "They all do that".
MGJohn said:
So effectively the first real "shakedown" test since extensive engine repairs.
.................................I spend most of my time on Rover and MG enthusiasts sites. Time and again folks complain about those so called "failures" of the "They all do that" K-Series Cylinder Head Gaskets (CHG). ....................
Sorry I cant let you get away with that comparison - it was exactly because of that crap K series engine that Rover and Land Rover went into liquidation following class action in the US..................................I spend most of my time on Rover and MG enthusiasts sites. Time and again folks complain about those so called "failures" of the "They all do that" K-Series Cylinder Head Gaskets (CHG). ....................
Yes, a vast majority of those K series engines did distort so much that they leaked and overheated. NOT and accurate comparison with the woes of the Porsche water cooled engine.
Pugley said:
MGJohn said:
So effectively the first real "shakedown" test since extensive engine repairs.
.................................I spend most of my time on Rover and MG enthusiasts sites. Time and again folks complain about those so called "failures" of the "They all do that" K-Series Cylinder Head Gaskets (CHG). ....................
Sorry I cant let you get away with that comparison - it was exactly because of that crap K series engine that Rover and Land Rover went into liquidation following class action in the US..................................I spend most of my time on Rover and MG enthusiasts sites. Time and again folks complain about those so called "failures" of the "They all do that" K-Series Cylinder Head Gaskets (CHG). ....................
Yes, a vast majority of those K series engines did distort so much that they leaked and overheated. NOT and accurate comparison with the woes of the Porsche water cooled engine.
Land Rover and Jaguar was sold by owners BMW to Ford for £1billion more than they paid for the whole of Rover Group! No liquidation involved. It was the much asset stripped by BMW remnants of the former Rover Group latterly known as MG-Rover which had the liquidators called in ten years ago in April 2005. The then Labour Government then saw fit not to help the then Private Company known as MG-Rover whereas it had previously been in the Government's interest to provide support previously.
K-Series: You see a chicken where I and many others see the egg. What came first, overheating leading to engine damage or engine damage leading to overheating.
Obviously it suits some to litigate and easy to make any "They all do that" statistic fit the bill.
Several K-Series engined cars bought new in my own, friends and family's cars have proved very reliable. None are guilty of your most "They all do that". These include the stretched 1.8 Litre Version of the engine which when it first appeared in 1.1 and 1.4 form was very reliable provided like all cars, they were maintained properly.
OK, accuse me and those others of being lucky if you like. I have specialised in the much maligned K-Series for well over ten years now. Actually longer as the first one I bought new was in 1993. That engine is still fine as is the last new one I bought, a 2003 MG ZS. That ZS which, twelve years on is my wife's daily driver and is one of the most reliable ordinary cars you could buy.
About a dozen cars I personally know where the previous owners were professionally advised to expensively repair or get rid because they had the well known "They all do that" so called HGF. They had nothing of the sort. With some of those cars the coolant loss was due simply to a worn Water Pump allowing engine to overheat. Their owners wisely stopped using them and sought professional advice. New pump fitted ( twenty quid ) and those cars still running faultlessly. Others the coolant loss was due to poor diagnosis by failing to identify the cause or worst still pure incompetence of pro-repairs. Badly skimmed cylinder heads making them worse than prior to skim.
Then there are the pure careless pro oversights. Such as not reassembling the the repaired cylinder head with the all important locating dowel nearest the timing side of the K-Series engine. That dowel does rather more than locate the the head-block interface. It is the main oil supply conduit to the double overhead camshafts. That was a Ford factory trained repair. No dowel and net result within a few miles of driving away, oil pumped at high pressure directly into and all around the coolant passageways in the engine!! Even a simple repair or renewal like replacing the Exhaust Manifold Gasket incorrectly can lead to so called they all do that HGF. Yes, I identified that one. On that occasion another "Can you have a look at my car John" request soon showed traces and stains of coolant loss from around and below the Coolant Elbow on the K-Series cylinder head. The Ex-Manifold gasket had been professionally fitted the wrong way round so that the Elbow would never fit flush bolted on its cylinder head location. The other end of the gasket has a cut out to allow the elbow to fit flush. Once the engine warmed up, coolant escaped at pressure from the small gap left by the poor fitting of the elbow.
I bought five MGs and Rovers in the past decade where the owners had been advised their cars had the "They all do that" so called HGF. I paid a price to allow for a replacement Cylinder Head Gasket. None did. All had wearing or worn water Pumps. And get this, two of those Rovers were 620ti which has Rover's T-Series engines!
Every time I read a post like yours makes me realise just how convenient it must have been to use that get out clause, the all embracing excuse for all manner of things Rover and MG related ...
They all do that mate... well known fact been on watchdog and TV so must be kosher.
I could describe my other findings but, I know you will only come back and deny everyone of my experiences as fiction. Even though I made and still have copious digital images on my computer of my findings and the work I did to identify and remedy these poor often unfairly maligned cars. All of which went on to give many years service and most still do to this day.
.... not only that, things like the following make my blood boil.
"It's a British Rover John so must be crap. Been on TV and everything"
"The reason my Rover is so powerful and reliable is because of its Honda Engine."
That despite the five letters over the T and K-Series engine's spark plug cover written bold and large:.... R O V E R
This was a widespread myth and for years I would contact every ebay description and other car sales advert pointing out their errors and erroneous misleading description. Gave up after the first fifty or so there were that many. Some folks got really nasty when that was pointed out. Others also contacted vendors yet they still believed their Rover engined cars had Honda engines...
One incorrectly described Rover Turbo I told the vendor on the phone when arranging to come and view that if his Rover had a Honda engine in it, no way would I be buying it. I bought it.
Yeah, Soichiro Honda would be spinning in his grave if he knew someone allowed another manufacturers' name to be on one of his Honda engines.
Only in the land of the increasingly self-inflicted ...
Yuuz cudnee mek eet up!
Now cheer me up and tell me I made all this up ... yeah ... right.
Oh yes, remember, only Rovers and MGs have cylinder head gaskets which fail ... no others do that. All Rovers do. Another widely and well known fact.
So there...
My Porsche driving friend and neighbour along with two others attended a Quiz night a few months back. We went in my MG ZT 1.8t. ( Yes, the 1.8 K-Series ) For many years Porsche driver has castigated me for my choice of cars...always in the best possible taste ...
S0d's Law enters the scenario. On the way home that freezing night, lots of steam form under the bonnet of the ZT as we approached Porsche friend's home. You can borrow my car John and look at yours in the daylight tomorrow. I declined the kind offer and drove the short way home after topping up and carrying six pints of water for further top ups. Got home safely. This short coolant hose to the turbocharger had split. That's all it takes sometimes to get a engine overheated and guess what is the first engine component damaged when that happens...give you three guesses although only one should suffice ... 
Car is fine now as we caught it in time before any harm done.
By the way, when he had serious trouble with his Porsche's engine it cost more to repair than I paid for my MG ZS on the road new!
Apologies to the OP for both the OTT length of this post and going OT.
I am passionate about cars and that shows sometimes ... Funny old game Folks and their cars..
Adam B said:
Very good John. I thought the main reason BMW bought Rover was to get tech access to the much admired K series engine, shame they went all old school when they designed the 75 rather than make a true 5 series competitor
Possibly but their X-Series SUVs came on a bundle once BMW owned Land and Range Rover.Had Rover-BMW spent a few extra quid on the basic K-Series design when they stretched it well beyond the original lightweight 1.1 and 1.4 up to 1.8, like the Chinese owners of MG have done now with the same basic design, the story could have been a lot different. However by the time the 75 was launched the decision to asset strip and run had already long been taken behind closed doors. Cannot blame BMW for those harsher commercial decisions. You can blame them for their negativity at the launch of the 75. That was a shock to the system. Was that merely coincidence? Not long after that launch, BMW completely severed any connection with the asset stripped remnants known afterwards as MG-Rover.
The real blame lays with previous UK Governments for allowing so many UK assets etc to be widely acquired cheaply here by alien interests. Interests which in both the short and longer terms is far from the best policy for this Nation as a whole with the longer term in mind.
Old school you say. Some truth in that but no denying the elegance of the design. I admire elegance in car designs unlike so many ugly duckling designs in the years since which now infest our roads. Ugly, fat-gut and bulky appears to be the new black. No appeal for me at all, but appear to sell like hot cakes. Unlike most car consumers, I'm a car enthusiast first, consumer second. So what do I know.
I have not driven a Rover 75 of any specification but have driven and own/owned MG ZTs which are the sportier versions of the Rover 75s. Considering the basic car first appeared in the late 1990s, even by today's standards they are a decent drive and nice place to be.
Both the 75 and ZT can be had in rear wheel drive V8 form. Nice cars too. Not many made before the liquidators were called in. That was a shame. Even though so few made, less than 1000 if I recall correctly, two work colleagues had V8 ZTs, one the Estate version known as the ZT-T tourer.
All very sad ten years ago this month. I was particularly very disappointed to read on the various car web sites back then so many of my fellow countrymen delighted to dance on the grave of Longbridge.
Typical of a nation excelling at getting far too many things quite simply wrong! Yes, all very sad.
There are numerous K-Series cars in my family, with relatives and circle of friends. All our collective experiences have been very positive. I bought the first K-Series new twenty two years ago and another new one ten years later. Those and numerous used K-Series cars have yet to suffer "They all do that". Yeah, I know, we've all been lucky.
Well I know a lot more about Rover's now
Not a much to update though, have spoken to the supplying dealer, who are having a meeting about what to do tommorrow (about my car, not just about what to do) but they have not indicated their position on things either way.
In the interim I have taken legal advice just in case and the solicitor was very confident that due to the relatively high purchase price of the vehicle and that it only managed to cover 1400mls before retiring,gives
a very strong case under the SOGA regulations for the dealer to cover the costs of repair/replacement of the failed engine.
It feels like a game of high stakes poker, where everyone is afraid of making the wrong move and ending up with a rather big invoice on their lap, although its not my daily drive I am also concerned about the timeframe and dont want a battle whereas the car ends up sitting in a workshop for months on end as the money side of things is disputed either way....
Not a much to update though, have spoken to the supplying dealer, who are having a meeting about what to do tommorrow (about my car, not just about what to do) but they have not indicated their position on things either way.
In the interim I have taken legal advice just in case and the solicitor was very confident that due to the relatively high purchase price of the vehicle and that it only managed to cover 1400mls before retiring,gives
a very strong case under the SOGA regulations for the dealer to cover the costs of repair/replacement of the failed engine.
It feels like a game of high stakes poker, where everyone is afraid of making the wrong move and ending up with a rather big invoice on their lap, although its not my daily drive I am also concerned about the timeframe and dont want a battle whereas the car ends up sitting in a workshop for months on end as the money side of things is disputed either way....
chocolatemonk said:
Well I know a lot more about Rover's now
Not a much to update though, have spoken to the supplying dealer, who are having a meeting about what to do tommorrow (about my car, not just about what to do) but they have not indicated their position on things either way.
In the interim I have taken legal advice just in case and the solicitor was very confident that due to the relatively high purchase price of the vehicle and that it only managed to cover 1400mls before retiring,gives
a very strong case under the SOGA regulations for the dealer to cover the costs of repair/replacement of the failed engine.
It feels like a game of high stakes poker, where everyone is afraid of making the wrong move and ending up with a rather big invoice on their lap, although its not my daily drive I am also concerned about the timeframe and dont want a battle whereas the car ends up sitting in a workshop for months on end as the money side of things is disputed either way....
believe it or not I had a similar situation on a 997 turbo which I've owned from new and which had been under OPC warranty through Porsche GB for seven continuous years since purchasing her. A few months before my cylinder liner melted at circa 170mph I'd lost a coolant hose and my car had dumped all her coolant and I had to drive a few miles to find a safe place to stop. Fast forward to engine letting go it took 5 months to sort out. When it looked like they were going to refuse to honour the warranty and I was going to send her to an Indy instead Porsche Hatfield wouldn't release the car without me covering the strip down costs lol. For a car under OPC warranty!!!!! They caved in after being reported to FCA by my lawyers as their warranty is essentially a financial product. Horrible situation to be in and make sure you stick to your guns. Best of luckNot a much to update though, have spoken to the supplying dealer, who are having a meeting about what to do tommorrow (about my car, not just about what to do) but they have not indicated their position on things either way.
In the interim I have taken legal advice just in case and the solicitor was very confident that due to the relatively high purchase price of the vehicle and that it only managed to cover 1400mls before retiring,gives
a very strong case under the SOGA regulations for the dealer to cover the costs of repair/replacement of the failed engine.
It feels like a game of high stakes poker, where everyone is afraid of making the wrong move and ending up with a rather big invoice on their lap, although its not my daily drive I am also concerned about the timeframe and dont want a battle whereas the car ends up sitting in a workshop for months on end as the money side of things is disputed either way....
Cobnapint said:
Honda bought the K-series for use in Jenson Button's 2015 F1 car.
Honest...!
In the immortal words of the late, great Peter Sellers allegedly quoting Michael Caine...Honest...!
Sellers/Caine said:
.
Not a lot of people know that.
.
Enjoy.. Not a lot of people know that.
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY85a15n5QY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX0F3kY3uxU
...
Edited by MGJohn on Tuesday 14th April 23:23
If the dealers took on the job it wouldn't be seen as unreasonable to replace the engine with a used one. If I were you I'd prefer to agree an equivalent contribution towards getting Hartech to rebuild it. It might cost you £5000 but you'll have a much better car afterwards.
That aside, the dealers may want to take the issue up with the garage that did the work. That's reasonable but will take up a bit of time unfortunately.
That aside, the dealers may want to take the issue up with the garage that did the work. That's reasonable but will take up a bit of time unfortunately.
Rather than having an unknown quantity secondhand replacement engine or a rebuild done that suits the supplying dealer rather than a proper Hartech work over with all the future proofing work I would be looking at a full refund.
The OP has owned a premium and expensive car for all of two minutes and it's gone bang. A cynical man may suggest that the damage has been done well before point of sale , from the overheating incident leading to head work etc.
Hope that the OP gets this resolved quickly and to his satisfaction.
The OP has owned a premium and expensive car for all of two minutes and it's gone bang. A cynical man may suggest that the damage has been done well before point of sale , from the overheating incident leading to head work etc.
Hope that the OP gets this resolved quickly and to his satisfaction.
Edited by bigfella70 on Sunday 3rd May 09:59
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