Condition of PCCB
Discussion
depends on how hard you use them.
I go through 2 sets of PF discs and 3 sets of rs29 on the front of my AP equipped CSL on 2500 track miles. Granted I don't wear them to the backing plates and switch out pads at 1/3 life.
given the mixed use, Chris has done well out of his PCCBs. Brakes are consumables and I think folks who only track 3-4 times a year (<500 track miles) should really not fear trying them if it is what they want.
I go through 2 sets of PF discs and 3 sets of rs29 on the front of my AP equipped CSL on 2500 track miles. Granted I don't wear them to the backing plates and switch out pads at 1/3 life.
given the mixed use, Chris has done well out of his PCCBs. Brakes are consumables and I think folks who only track 3-4 times a year (<500 track miles) should really not fear trying them if it is what they want.
Generally speaking I'll do around 150 miles on a track day.
I always replace pads when half worn, to minimise heat transfer.
PCCB's are at their best in extremis, so you could argue only that I'm making real use of my investment, and they are consumables.
Except that now four refurbished discs can be fixed for the price of one new one ... and arguably at less cost than the equivalent consumption would have been in sets of steel discs ....
So all the advantages of PCCB ... with what if any disadvantages ??
And on that bomb-shell
I always replace pads when half worn, to minimise heat transfer.
PCCB's are at their best in extremis, so you could argue only that I'm making real use of my investment, and they are consumables.
Except that now four refurbished discs can be fixed for the price of one new one ... and arguably at less cost than the equivalent consumption would have been in sets of steel discs ....
So all the advantages of PCCB ... with what if any disadvantages ??
And on that bomb-shell
so if you forfeit the deposit to SICOM, total cost would be £4500. i.e. price for a standalone set of reformed discs?
how many track days did you do for the 34,000 miles would u approximate?
Thanks Chris. You are indeed making arguments in a compelling manner.
I suppose once you go down this road, the opc warranty can also go out the window. The above works if you already have a PCCB equipped car and I guess money saved is money saved, especially if the refurb discs perform just as well as oem.
Surface Transform discs cost about £2k +vat a disc brand new which is half the cost of the oem ones. How does SICOM new discs compare?
how many track days did you do for the 34,000 miles would u approximate?
Thanks Chris. You are indeed making arguments in a compelling manner.
I suppose once you go down this road, the opc warranty can also go out the window. The above works if you already have a PCCB equipped car and I guess money saved is money saved, especially if the refurb discs perform just as well as oem.
Surface Transform discs cost about £2k +vat a disc brand new which is half the cost of the oem ones. How does SICOM new discs compare?
Edited by HokumPokum on Sunday 16th August 08:03
Edited by HokumPokum on Sunday 16th August 08:08
It was Euro 5,400 plus tax just for the discs with the assumption that Euro 2000 would be returned for the old discs.
The refurbs obviously look like OEM discs.
There is also the option of new discs to size ... but the ones I saw were not perforated ...
I guess if people order refurbs without returning the originals, there would be a shortage of the original pattern discs for refurb ??
The refurbs obviously look like OEM discs.
There is also the option of new discs to size ... but the ones I saw were not perforated ...
I guess if people order refurbs without returning the originals, there would be a shortage of the original pattern discs for refurb ??
HokumPokum said:
so like re-furbing dampers, you could be waiting for a bit if the factory is busy..........
Yes....maximum waiting time is upto 6 weeks primarily due to the back log. We are doing between 30 to 50 refurbs a month from Europe alone. The UK is bringing this number up slowly also amongst the Porsche and Ferrari crowd.However if discs are on the shelf then turn around is much quicker, naturally.
ChrisW. said:
Once the reputation of SICOM builds, I'm not sure that the refurb concept has any value ...
What if SICOM are better than Porsche OEM ?
It's enough to know that the promise of the new price of PCCB is a sustainable option ...
Chris, I would love to show you comparison data but we are confident where we know how our discs stand against Brembo and SGL on the track. Purely from a product point of view we are VERY confident.What if SICOM are better than Porsche OEM ?
It's enough to know that the promise of the new price of PCCB is a sustainable option ...
Edited by Schermerhorn on Monday 17th August 05:54
How many track days is a bit of a toughie --- 25 ?? So 4000 miles ?
I raced in the P C championship for a couple of years and it changes completely the way you drive on track.
The brakes become as consumable as the tyres ... in fact, you have to change the brake pads to control heat soak into the brake fluid and avoid boiling and terminal fade ...
But isn't this why Porsche is such a fabulous car manufacturer ?
They are holding an extended warranty on my car --- even it does get serviced to death !
I raced in the P C championship for a couple of years and it changes completely the way you drive on track.
The brakes become as consumable as the tyres ... in fact, you have to change the brake pads to control heat soak into the brake fluid and avoid boiling and terminal fade ...
But isn't this why Porsche is such a fabulous car manufacturer ?
They are holding an extended warranty on my car --- even it does get serviced to death !
we need comparison data between OEM/SICOM/Surface Transform and any other makers, SGL/Brembo
chipped fibres , DBM, continuous fibres..... all that tech is good
but life, life after refurb, cost, pad choice, performance on track. All these need evaluation and analysis. But through no fault of SICOM, we don't have anyone doing that kind of testing. My view is this market is opening up but needs more concrete testing to weed out the weaker products.
All we compare is price and we all know that is just 1 facet to value.
Hopefully EVO or someone else will do this testing soon as CCBs are standard on ferraris/Macs and R8s...and appearing as options on many marques. Enough to warrant independent testing. Exciting stuff.
If some independent tester has already done this, please point me to the research.
For now, until I know: Steels please.
You can always convert to CCB....
chipped fibres , DBM, continuous fibres..... all that tech is good
but life, life after refurb, cost, pad choice, performance on track. All these need evaluation and analysis. But through no fault of SICOM, we don't have anyone doing that kind of testing. My view is this market is opening up but needs more concrete testing to weed out the weaker products.
All we compare is price and we all know that is just 1 facet to value.
Hopefully EVO or someone else will do this testing soon as CCBs are standard on ferraris/Macs and R8s...and appearing as options on many marques. Enough to warrant independent testing. Exciting stuff.
If some independent tester has already done this, please point me to the research.
For now, until I know: Steels please.
You can always convert to CCB....
I agree. Unfortunately, these tests are approached like clinical medical trials by big manufacturers who want to protect their investments and intellectual property rights.
The reason why many manufacturers do not publish cross comparison data is due to many variables that can influence or skew the data. Variables such as weather, asphalt surface type, warm up, warm down, driver experience, type of track, etc etc etc all influence end results that is becomes virtually impossible to extrapolate one test result data to a wider spectrum.
Furthermore you have to be able to repeat that through dozens, if not hundreds of tests to get a consistent data spread and THEN be able to confidently say "Product A is better than Product B" without any repercussions from your competitors legal department. Instead, we'll leave it to magazines etc to draw their own conclusions and publicise the results through single or a handful of tests. That way any product manufacturer can say "It's not US saying our product is brilliant, it's THIS magazine or THIS TV channel that is saying it".
The tests we conducted were few in number but consistently in SICOM's favour. However, based on those findings we cannot publish and say what we would love to say about the competition.
Guys don't forget that SICOM has extensive experience in supplying carbon ceramic brake discs to superbikes in America and also supplies the AF Corse racing team with ceramic discs for their Ferrari 458 Italia GT2 car. If Ferrari trust us to supply racing cars driven by the likes of Giancarlo Fisichella and win with them, I believe that is high endorsment from the biggest motorsport team in the world.
Unfortunately, you can have a less than stellar product but a large market share, and everyone will think you're defacto number 1 based on merits of quality alone.
The reason why many manufacturers do not publish cross comparison data is due to many variables that can influence or skew the data. Variables such as weather, asphalt surface type, warm up, warm down, driver experience, type of track, etc etc etc all influence end results that is becomes virtually impossible to extrapolate one test result data to a wider spectrum.
Furthermore you have to be able to repeat that through dozens, if not hundreds of tests to get a consistent data spread and THEN be able to confidently say "Product A is better than Product B" without any repercussions from your competitors legal department. Instead, we'll leave it to magazines etc to draw their own conclusions and publicise the results through single or a handful of tests. That way any product manufacturer can say "It's not US saying our product is brilliant, it's THIS magazine or THIS TV channel that is saying it".
The tests we conducted were few in number but consistently in SICOM's favour. However, based on those findings we cannot publish and say what we would love to say about the competition.
Guys don't forget that SICOM has extensive experience in supplying carbon ceramic brake discs to superbikes in America and also supplies the AF Corse racing team with ceramic discs for their Ferrari 458 Italia GT2 car. If Ferrari trust us to supply racing cars driven by the likes of Giancarlo Fisichella and win with them, I believe that is high endorsment from the biggest motorsport team in the world.
Unfortunately, you can have a less than stellar product but a large market share, and everyone will think you're defacto number 1 based on merits of quality alone.
Edited by Schermerhorn on Tuesday 18th August 12:56
Schermerhorn said:
I agree. Unfortunately, these tests are approached like clinical medical trials by big manufacturers who want to protect their investments and intellectual property rights.
The reason why many manufacturers do not publish cross comparison data is due to many variables that can influence or skew the data. Variables such as weather, asphalt surface type, warm up, warm down, driver experience, type of track, etc etc etc all influence end results that is becomes virtually impossible to extrapolate one test result data to a wider spectrum.
Furthermore you have to be able to repeat that through dozens, if not hundreds of tests to get a consistent data spread and THEN be able to confidently say "Product A is better than Product B" without any repercussions from your competitors legal department. Instead, we'll leave it to magazines etc to draw their own conclusions and publicise the results through single or a handful of tests. That way any product manufacturer can say "It's not US saying our product is brilliant, it's THIS magazine or THIS TV channel that is saying it".
The tests we conducted were few in number but consistently in SICOM's favour. However, based on those findings we cannot publish and say what we would love to say about the competition.
Guys don't forget that SICOM has extensive experience in supplying carbon ceramic brake discs to superbikes in America and also supplies the AF Corse racing team with ceramic discs for their Ferrari 458 Italia GT2 car. If Ferrari trust us to supply racing cars driven by the likes of Giancarlo Fisichella and win with them, I believe that is high endorsment from the biggest motorsport team in the world.
Unfortunately, you can have a less than stellar product but a large market share, and everyone will think you're defacto number 1 based on merits of quality alone.
Of your experience, what would you say the latest gen3 pccb by Porsche are like? Have they come on a long way?The reason why many manufacturers do not publish cross comparison data is due to many variables that can influence or skew the data. Variables such as weather, asphalt surface type, warm up, warm down, driver experience, type of track, etc etc etc all influence end results that is becomes virtually impossible to extrapolate one test result data to a wider spectrum.
Furthermore you have to be able to repeat that through dozens, if not hundreds of tests to get a consistent data spread and THEN be able to confidently say "Product A is better than Product B" without any repercussions from your competitors legal department. Instead, we'll leave it to magazines etc to draw their own conclusions and publicise the results through single or a handful of tests. That way any product manufacturer can say "It's not US saying our product is brilliant, it's THIS magazine or THIS TV channel that is saying it".
The tests we conducted were few in number but consistently in SICOM's favour. However, based on those findings we cannot publish and say what we would love to say about the competition.
Guys don't forget that SICOM has extensive experience in supplying carbon ceramic brake discs to superbikes in America and also supplies the AF Corse racing team with ceramic discs for their Ferrari 458 Italia GT2 car. If Ferrari trust us to supply racing cars driven by the likes of Giancarlo Fisichella and win with them, I believe that is high endorsment from the biggest motorsport team in the world.
Unfortunately, you can have a less than stellar product but a large market share, and everyone will think you're defacto number 1 based on merits of quality alone.
Edited by Schermerhorn on Tuesday 18th August 12:56
A big step up from the Gen1 PCCBs from circa 2003.
If I recall correctly, those were prone to hotspotting and cracking before Porsche finally rectified the issue after numerous complaints. Dont think the Carrera GT had the same issues, maybe there were not driven regularly enough for the problems to manifest.
If I recall correctly, those were prone to hotspotting and cracking before Porsche finally rectified the issue after numerous complaints. Dont think the Carrera GT had the same issues, maybe there were not driven regularly enough for the problems to manifest.
Schermerhorn said:
You're right, it could. Just realised how it sounded when read out loud so I've re-worded it. Thanks for the heads up. The last thing I want to say is that Ferrari are endorsing us over their Brembo equipped team 
How are your SICOM discs? I forget if you got the refurbs or the full kit for your Porsche?
Posting here cos I don't think the OP on the other thread would thank us for clogging up his excellent contribution.How are your SICOM discs? I forget if you got the refurbs or the full kit for your Porsche?
The new refurbed discs seem good, I'm running them with new Endless Pace street pads which I don't think Wolfgang had any experience of. I'm getting a tiny bit of squealing after crawling round traffic for a while but not serious and I think "they all do that" to a certain extent.
The initial bite is not as fierce as it was but I was using a more aggressive Endless W008 pad on the PCCBs. I have yet to do the 210mph to 50mph stamp on vmax test but so far they are ticking all boxes and I'm very satisfied.
TB993tt said:
Schermerhorn said:
You're right, it could. Just realised how it sounded when read out loud so I've re-worded it. Thanks for the heads up. The last thing I want to say is that Ferrari are endorsing us over their Brembo equipped team
How are your SICOM discs? I forget if you got the refurbs or the full kit for your Porsche?
Posting here cos I don't think the OP on the other thread would thank us for clogging up his excellent contribution.How are your SICOM discs? I forget if you got the refurbs or the full kit for your Porsche?
The new refurbed discs seem good, I'm running them with new Endless Pace street pads which I don't think Wolfgang had any experience of. I'm getting a tiny bit of squealing after crawling round traffic for a while but not serious and I think "they all do that" to a certain extent.
The initial bite is not as fierce as it was but I was using a more aggressive Endless W008 pad on the PCCBs. I have yet to do the 210mph to 50mph stamp on vmax test but so far they are ticking all boxes and I'm very satisfied.
Not heard of Endless Pace either tbh, are they made by the same company or repackaged by someone like Lumag etc? Going to have to check them out...
Schermerhorn said:
Not heard of Endless Pace either tbh, are they made by the same company or repackaged by someone like Lumag etc? Going to have to check them out...
For the price I hope they are made on their Formula 1 production line. They seem to be the ultimate pad brand IMO used by Manthey and many other serious Porsche racing teams.Fl0pp3r said:
Thanks clarifying Schermerhorn! Was a bit confused about the scenario :-)
Only other question I have now is: can a standard OEM Porsche PCCB pad be used in conjunction with a refurbished SICOM disc?
Many thanks once again, and welcome for the edit tip, the Ad looks great.
Many thanks again for your input on the design of the advertisement, Flopper. Phone has been ringing all day today and text messages galore, even from as far as California! I think I need a lie down and a cuppa!Only other question I have now is: can a standard OEM Porsche PCCB pad be used in conjunction with a refurbished SICOM disc?
Many thanks once again, and welcome for the edit tip, the Ad looks great.
PS: Fancy a job?
Someone sent me this picture off his Ferrari with refurbished discs.
He cleaned his car after a few months and several thousand kilometers of standard road use and this was the result when he cleaned his wheels
Virtually no brake dust whatsoever.
Got to say, it has exceeded my expectations.
He cleaned his car after a few months and several thousand kilometers of standard road use and this was the result when he cleaned his wheels
Virtually no brake dust whatsoever.
Got to say, it has exceeded my expectations.
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