Would a 996/7 GT3 live with the 991 GT3 on track?
Discussion
Didn't know you asked... 2.42 with PAX and 2.40 single... It was a rental with a 125k Euros excess 
Steel brakes that have seen better day and same goes for tires. I think with fresh brakes and tires, it wont be diff doing 2.38 single.
I would ave liked susp a little stiffer, but I think they keep them semi soft as extra safety margin.
Not into modern automated cars, but was very impressed and surprised that I enjoyed the car.
Now looking forward to get the RS.
Steel brakes that have seen better day and same goes for tires. I think with fresh brakes and tires, it wont be diff doing 2.38 single. I would ave liked susp a little stiffer, but I think they keep them semi soft as extra safety margin.
Not into modern automated cars, but was very impressed and surprised that I enjoyed the car.
Now looking forward to get the RS.
keep it lit said:
not really setting hair on fire there mate, was expecting a lot quicker the way you were talking! I know lots of lads who can get well into the 2:40's in 6/7 GT2/3's and M3's. I'll be over again soon in my RS & 3.9CS and report back, hopefully you'll be around in your RS too
Wasn't mine, only a rental, curious since I have the RS coming and doubted I would like all the electronics etc. Jumped in it and was out of the box quick on the day, nothing else could stay with it, maybe I was just lucky. All the others (on 2 days) and there were a lot of GT3/RS, they just faded away. Off course many gets well into 2.40's in their GT3/RS's, but think about jumping into a rental with no insurance and do 2.40 single out of the box. And it was easy, thats the point, the car is that good. With fresh brakes it will be high 2.30's I am guessing and it is with standard suspension and standard steel brakes. Completely standard car. GT3's doing well sub 2.50 are not standard. If you add stiffer suspension and stronger brakes to the 991 GT3 like most of you have, it will help build bigger gap.Not saying 991 are more fun, they are just awesome cars. If I could only have one track car, I would stick with something more manual. You don't have to fly round everyone to have fun IMO.
From what i've read on Rennlist from other owners, the 991 is considerably quicker. Watching a video against a 997 GT3, the 991 walks away in a straight-line. Also didn't a guy on here say he was at Silverstone and tried really hard (in his 997) and just couldn't keep up with a 991? Hopefully he will show his face...
Owning both cars, even on the road a few minutes in the 991 makes you realise how much the game has moved on. I can't see this not translating to the same outcome on track. I'll find out on the 6th!
Owning both cars, even on the road a few minutes in the 991 makes you realise how much the game has moved on. I can't see this not translating to the same outcome on track. I'll find out on the 6th!
hondansx said:
From what i've read on Rennlist from other owners, the 991 is considerably quicker. Watching a video against a 997 GT3, the 991 walks away in a straight-line. Also didn't a guy on here say he was at Silverstone and tried really hard (in his 997) and just couldn't keep up with a 991? Hopefully he will show his face...
Owning both cars, even on the road a few minutes in the 991 makes you realise how much the game has moved on. I can't see this not translating to the same outcome on track. I'll find out on the 6th!
A mate of mine who can pedal on Spa was with me in his fairly standard 997... We tried both to do bat out of hell to see who big the diff is, 1 lap and I was pretty much out of sight, out of sight on Kemmel. 991 standard is a big step up from standard 997. Most surprising to me was how lively and engaging the 991 feels, much more fun than I expected. But damn its quick, nearly too quick for a regular track day. Owning both cars, even on the road a few minutes in the 991 makes you realise how much the game has moved on. I can't see this not translating to the same outcome on track. I'll find out on the 6th!
sidicks said:
Interesting, thanks. The video says 4 tenths of a second faster, but it is much closer to 3 tenths (0.32s)!
I think this is the same guy I've seen before - his car is VERY special, and he has driven hundreds (thousands?) of laps at that circuit. No idea what experience the 'pro' driver had with the 991 GT3 or on that circuit.
Regardless, this is still very impressive though.
It is Jack Olsen and his car. Sure it has had a lot of work done but he still drives it on the street, it has an interior and the comforts of the day. It is not an out and out track car make no mistake. I think this is the same guy I've seen before - his car is VERY special, and he has driven hundreds (thousands?) of laps at that circuit. No idea what experience the 'pro' driver had with the 991 GT3 or on that circuit.
Regardless, this is still very impressive though.
There would be much more for that car to give if he were to abandon his requirement to drive it around on the street and dedicate it to track use only. But like the GT3 this is not its point as far as I can tell. Its meant to be fun and useable.
It is also worth remembering the starting point of that car when understanding what that interesting video shows. A long hood 911 is far behind the curve in terms of advanced engineering and materials relative to more modern cars. The chassis is no where near as stiff, it generates proper levels of lift, its not smuggling huge amounts of power and the suspension design was at the starting point of the 911 journey not the end.
The incremental improvements undertaken over the years by Jack and Tyson seek to maximise what is there, eek out more and overcome hurdles inherent with this starting position. The rear wing for example works to offset the massive lift the body generates, it is not generating downforce as far as I know.
The car has been on its own journey thats for sure but make no mistake, this car is not a 991 RSR hidden under a long hood body that will tear everything up and the video cannot be cast aside behind that banner - not that I am suggesting you were; its a general comment.
The 991 GT3 is driven in that video by Randy Pobst. A fantastic race car driver, multiple daytona 24 class winner, Porsche and Audi factory driver etc. He is experienced at that track and is a pro driver. I imagine Jack has more laps there that is for sure, but Randy Pobst is no rookie.
Jack's car runs Nitto NT01 in the video, the 991 GT3 runs MPSC2. Some slight tire advantage to the michelins but its not going to be huge.
So why is the video interesting? Well for me it is not about the lap times, or because it shows up the 991GT3 for having no trousers (for the record I don't hold this view). It is interesting because it shows:
i) Weight hurts you if you want to go round corners and ii) All the advancements and technologies being thrown at cars don't move anything on when it really comes down to it from a performance perspective.
Despite all that has moved on with cars; Power still makes you accelerate quickly and weight sucks when you want to go round a corner. It has always been thus.
Meanwhile all the stuff that they throw at todays cars in spades. PCCB, e-diff, PASM, PSM, torque vectoring, PDK, pre-emptive ABS/braking, shell construction improvements, aero design etc all just help to hide the penalty of the weight the same cars carry while allowing the upper levels of performance to be more readily attained.
The 991 GT3 is not a poorer car than Jack's car. I don't see anything like that when I watch that video. Different track and the result could/would have been different. What I see is two very different approaches to doing the same thing - and each is free to choose which speaks more to them - and an end result that I am sure caught many out even though it perhaps shouldn't have.
As for the OPs question. Well on the same rubber there isn't anything really between the various GT3's with the 3.6L Mezger engines. The 3.8L cars move on a bit ahead. The answer why can be found above. The 991 GT3 should be faster over them all (answer why still above) but given the above video contents, it should be clear that it is certainly possible that many 996/997 GT3s out there could live with the 991 GT3 providing one measured over the entire lap rather than just assumed from the straights, and of course depending on where that lap was run.
As in the video, different approaches to the same thing in the end. Each can choose as they will and should be happy they get to be so indulgent whatever they select.
fioran0 said:
It is Jack Olsen and his car. Sure it has had a lot of work done but he still drives it on the street, it has an interior and the comforts of the day. It is not an out and out track car make no mistake.
There would be much more for that car to give if he were to abandon his requirement to drive it around on the street and dedicate it to track use only. But like the GT3 this is not its point as far as I can tell. Its meant to be fun and useable.
It is also worth remembering the starting point of that car when understanding what that interesting video shows. A long hood 911 is far behind the curve in terms of advanced engineering and materials relative to more modern cars. The chassis is no where near as stiff, it generates proper levels of lift, its not smuggling huge amounts of power and the suspension design was at the starting point of the 911 journey not the end.
The incremental improvements undertaken over the years by Jack and Tyson seek to maximise what is there, eek out more and overcome hurdles inherent with this starting position. The rear wing for example works to offset the massive lift the body generates, it is not generating downforce as far as I know.
The car has been on its own journey thats for sure but make no mistake, this car is not a 991 RSR hidden under a long hood body that will tear everything up and the video cannot be cast aside behind that banner - not that I am suggesting you were; its a general comment.
The 991 GT3 is driven in that video by Randy Pobst. A fantastic race car driver, multiple daytona 24 class winner, Porsche and Audi factory driver etc. He is experienced at that track and is a pro driver. I imagine Jack has more laps there that is for sure, but Randy Pobst is no rookie.
Jack's car runs Nitto NT01 in the video, the 991 GT3 runs MPSC2. Some slight tire advantage to the michelins but its not going to be huge.
So why is the video interesting? Well for me it is not about the lap times, or because it shows up the 991GT3 for having no trousers (for the record I don't hold this view). It is interesting because it shows:
i) Weight hurts you if you want to go round corners and ii) All the advancements and technologies being thrown at cars don't move anything on when it really comes down to it from a performance perspective.
Despite all that has moved on with cars; Power still makes you accelerate quickly and weight sucks when you want to go round a corner. It has always been thus.
Meanwhile all the stuff that they throw at todays cars in spades. PCCB, e-diff, PASM, PSM, torque vectoring, PDK, pre-emptive ABS/braking, shell construction improvements, aero design etc all just help to hide the penalty of the weight the same cars carry while allowing the upper levels of performance to be more readily attained.
The 991 GT3 is not a poorer car than Jack's car. I don't see anything like that when I watch that video. Different track and the result could/would have been different. What I see is two very different approaches to doing the same thing - and each is free to choose which speaks more to them - and an end result that I am sure caught many out even though it perhaps shouldn't have.
As for the OPs question. Well on the same rubber there isn't anything really between the various GT3's with the 3.6L Mezger engines. The 3.8L cars move on a bit ahead. The answer why can be found above. The 991 GT3 should be faster over them all (answer why still above) but given the above video contents, it should be clear that it is certainly possible that many 996/997 GT3s out there could live with the 991 GT3 providing one measured over the entire lap rather than just assumed from the straights, and of course depending on where that lap was run.
As in the video, different approaches to the same thing in the end. Each can choose as they will and should be happy they get to be so indulgent whatever they select.
There would be much more for that car to give if he were to abandon his requirement to drive it around on the street and dedicate it to track use only. But like the GT3 this is not its point as far as I can tell. Its meant to be fun and useable.
It is also worth remembering the starting point of that car when understanding what that interesting video shows. A long hood 911 is far behind the curve in terms of advanced engineering and materials relative to more modern cars. The chassis is no where near as stiff, it generates proper levels of lift, its not smuggling huge amounts of power and the suspension design was at the starting point of the 911 journey not the end.
The incremental improvements undertaken over the years by Jack and Tyson seek to maximise what is there, eek out more and overcome hurdles inherent with this starting position. The rear wing for example works to offset the massive lift the body generates, it is not generating downforce as far as I know.
The car has been on its own journey thats for sure but make no mistake, this car is not a 991 RSR hidden under a long hood body that will tear everything up and the video cannot be cast aside behind that banner - not that I am suggesting you were; its a general comment.
The 991 GT3 is driven in that video by Randy Pobst. A fantastic race car driver, multiple daytona 24 class winner, Porsche and Audi factory driver etc. He is experienced at that track and is a pro driver. I imagine Jack has more laps there that is for sure, but Randy Pobst is no rookie.
Jack's car runs Nitto NT01 in the video, the 991 GT3 runs MPSC2. Some slight tire advantage to the michelins but its not going to be huge.
So why is the video interesting? Well for me it is not about the lap times, or because it shows up the 991GT3 for having no trousers (for the record I don't hold this view). It is interesting because it shows:
i) Weight hurts you if you want to go round corners and ii) All the advancements and technologies being thrown at cars don't move anything on when it really comes down to it from a performance perspective.
Despite all that has moved on with cars; Power still makes you accelerate quickly and weight sucks when you want to go round a corner. It has always been thus.
Meanwhile all the stuff that they throw at todays cars in spades. PCCB, e-diff, PASM, PSM, torque vectoring, PDK, pre-emptive ABS/braking, shell construction improvements, aero design etc all just help to hide the penalty of the weight the same cars carry while allowing the upper levels of performance to be more readily attained.
The 991 GT3 is not a poorer car than Jack's car. I don't see anything like that when I watch that video. Different track and the result could/would have been different. What I see is two very different approaches to doing the same thing - and each is free to choose which speaks more to them - and an end result that I am sure caught many out even though it perhaps shouldn't have.
As for the OPs question. Well on the same rubber there isn't anything really between the various GT3's with the 3.6L Mezger engines. The 3.8L cars move on a bit ahead. The answer why can be found above. The 991 GT3 should be faster over them all (answer why still above) but given the above video contents, it should be clear that it is certainly possible that many 996/997 GT3s out there could live with the 991 GT3 providing one measured over the entire lap rather than just assumed from the straights, and of course depending on where that lap was run.
As in the video, different approaches to the same thing in the end. Each can choose as they will and should be happy they get to be so indulgent whatever they select.
Jack Olsen said:
Well said.
One way to look at it is that Porsche's steady improvements in chassis and suspension design (as well as the power increases) have largely offset the penalty that's come with simultaneously increasing the car's mass.
A worthwhile question would be why Porsche has continued to make the car larger and heavier. I suspect its customer demographic drives this decision. Most 911 buyers (even most GT3 buyers) would not have lap times at the top of their priority list when shopping for a luxury sport car. 'How great it looks when the valet brings it around' is probably much higher on that list.
Isn't this partly due to changing safety / emissions regulations (as well as buyer preference for more equipment)?One way to look at it is that Porsche's steady improvements in chassis and suspension design (as well as the power increases) have largely offset the penalty that's come with simultaneously increasing the car's mass.
A worthwhile question would be why Porsche has continued to make the car larger and heavier. I suspect its customer demographic drives this decision. Most 911 buyers (even most GT3 buyers) would not have lap times at the top of their priority list when shopping for a luxury sport car. 'How great it looks when the valet brings it around' is probably much higher on that list.
Jack Olsen said:
It's also worth pointing out that the increased horsepower in the GT3 would give it an advantage at many race circuits. Willow Springs is a great reference track because it is basically unchanged since 1954, with the last repave in 1985. But it is also an unusual track in that there are no 5th-to-2nd-gear corners. Sustained high speeds, and especially sustained high cornering speeds, are essential at this particular track. The average speed in a lap for my car is over 161 kph. And my car never drops below 97 kph in even the tightest corners on the track. This isn't the case at a lot of tracks, where the higher-horsepower car would be able to 'dig itself out of the hole' much more effectively than my low-hp car in a 2nd-gear corner.
Thanks Jack, very interesting and informative.Well said.
One way to look at it is that Porsche's steady improvements in chassis and suspension design (as well as the power increases) have largely offset the penalty that's come with simultaneously increasing the car's mass.
A worthwhile question would be why Porsche has continued to make the car larger and heavier. I suspect its customer demographic drives this decision. Most 911 buyers (even most GT3 buyers) would not have lap times at the top of their priority list when shopping for a luxury sport car. 'How great it looks when the valet brings it around' is probably much higher on that list.
It's also worth pointing out that the increased horsepower in the GT3 would give it an advantage at many race circuits. Willow Springs is a great reference track because it is basically unchanged since 1954, with the last repave in 1985. But it is also an unusual track in that there are no 5th-to-2nd-gear corners. Sustained high speeds, and especially sustained high cornering speeds, are essential at this particular track. The average speed in a lap for my car is over 161 kph. And my car never drops below 97 kph in even the tightest corners on the track. This isn't the case at a lot of tracks, where the higher-horsepower car would be able to 'dig itself out of the hole' much more effectively than my low-hp car in a 2nd-gear corner.
Still, that old 911 still goes pretty good. The semi-trailing-arm suspension was already 7-8 years into its development in 1972. And some of what's been done with my suspension comes out of the development of the 935.
One way to look at it is that Porsche's steady improvements in chassis and suspension design (as well as the power increases) have largely offset the penalty that's come with simultaneously increasing the car's mass.
A worthwhile question would be why Porsche has continued to make the car larger and heavier. I suspect its customer demographic drives this decision. Most 911 buyers (even most GT3 buyers) would not have lap times at the top of their priority list when shopping for a luxury sport car. 'How great it looks when the valet brings it around' is probably much higher on that list.
It's also worth pointing out that the increased horsepower in the GT3 would give it an advantage at many race circuits. Willow Springs is a great reference track because it is basically unchanged since 1954, with the last repave in 1985. But it is also an unusual track in that there are no 5th-to-2nd-gear corners. Sustained high speeds, and especially sustained high cornering speeds, are essential at this particular track. The average speed in a lap for my car is over 161 kph. And my car never drops below 97 kph in even the tightest corners on the track. This isn't the case at a lot of tracks, where the higher-horsepower car would be able to 'dig itself out of the hole' much more effectively than my low-hp car in a 2nd-gear corner.
Still, that old 911 still goes pretty good. The semi-trailing-arm suspension was already 7-8 years into its development in 1972. And some of what's been done with my suspension comes out of the development of the 935.
I know it's all relative and the 'chase' driver in this TF vid has undoubtedy got a LOT of laps under his belt, but it's still nice to see a pair of 991's being kept honest by some old pork
http://youtu.be/Xn1CLllOnrI
http://youtu.be/Xn1CLllOnrI
Nurburgsingh said:
I know it's all relative and the 'chase' driver in this TF vid has undoubtedy got a LOT of laps under his belt, but it's still nice to see a pair of 991's being kept honest by some old pork
http://youtu.be/Xn1CLllOnrI
love it!http://youtu.be/Xn1CLllOnrI
Assuming the same (equally competent) driver and tyres, would be really quite interested to see outside of transmission how much of an improvement the 991 really is over the older cars especially given the 991 cup not being very much quicker if at all over the 997. Some of the 997 RS converted with a sequential manual I suspect might give the 991s a bit of a surprise for 991 drivers expecting to be out of sight after a few corners.
keep it lit said:
I'll ask again... what were your 'real world 991' times around Spa?
Sorry to gatecrash but I can give you real world times for 991GT3 around Silverstone GP circuit. I can do a relatively relaxed 2;15 in the 991GT3 best time I ever got In my 997.2GT3RS was 2;22. Again from experience a well driven 991GT3 would be out of sight from a well driven 997 GT3 within 2 laps. The game has just moved on. In fact my 991 Turbo S is also as quick (well for 3 laps before tyres overheat) as 991GT3 and again substantially quicker than 997GT3's on track. Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff