991 carrera - good time to buy used?

[wilkos]

ORD said:

I find the 997 and 987 (of which I have more experience) to convey just enough steering feel to be taken seriously as sports cars. An ounce less is too little. And the brakes are about spot on for me; the additional assistance in the 991 and 981 is horrid.

(p.s. I have very powerful thighs.)

I always found the 987 steering to be less communicative than the 997, and the brakes to have more assistance. Not as much as a 991, but I never found my thighs and calves getting stiff after a long spirited drive. Don't get me wrong, I loved my 997, but on the few occasions I had to do 700miles in a single sitting, I didn't look forward to it, where as on Monday I have to drive 600 miles by lunchtime, and I'm looking forwards to it.

[ORD]

wilkos said:

I always found the 987 steering to be less communicative than the 997, and the brakes to have more assistance. Not as much as a 991, but I never found my thighs and calves getting stiff after a long spirited drive. Don't get me wrong, I loved my 997, but on the few occasions I had to do 700miles in a single sitting, I didn't look forward to it, where as on Monday I have to drive 600 miles by lunchtime, and I'm looking forwards to it.

Not sure I want a sports car that is that comfortable, though - Porsches are generally towards the GT end of the market anyway, and being able to do 600 miles without noticing it makes me think of 2000kg Merc rather than a sports car.

Different strokes for, though

Not sure the 987 brakes have more assistance - probably just that its lighter and has the engine in the right place.

[pilchardthecat]

ORD said:

I find the 997 and 987 (of which I have more experience) to convey just enough steering feel to be taken seriously as sports cars. An ounce less is too little. And the brakes are about spot on for me; the additional assistance in the 991 and 981 is horrid.

(p.s. I have very powerful thighs.)

Havent driven the 991 but the brakes on the new Boxster/Cayman are horribly over assisted, and whilst the steering is nice and pointy on a test drive, if you spend a little time with it it's not good on the limit at all.
After being initially impressed I was happy to get my 997.2S back from the OPC.
When the time comes it'll be Cayman GT4 versus 997.2 GTS versus 991

[wilkos]

We all have our different levels of compromise. I can't realistically drive mine anywhere near the limits on the public road. Had a hair on fire drive up the fosse yesterday and found myself carrying insane (go to jail) speed, and I doubt I was at 7/10s
Mine has to function as a daily which means school run, cross continental road trips (500m door to door from mine to the ring) and give me fun when I need it. The 991 is better at this compromise than my 997 was.
I have a dedicated track car, so it'll get tracked rarely, and to be honest if you want an out and out sports car, buy a cater field, or an Elise, gt3 etc, but I'd want to trailer any of them to the track as I'd hate them on the road.
I've driven caterfields, atoms etc on track and they're awesome. Would I drive to sainsburies in one? No! I'd rather walk and punch myself in the testicles at the same time.

To the OP. Try both, decide what's works for you and enjoy your purchase.

[Ernesto]

I recently bought a manual 991 GTS.

I have owned many Porsches and reckon the 991 GTS is the best all-round Porsche I have owned. Of course it is a compromise, like all Porsches, but in overall terms it is hard to fault.

Compared to the 997 I would say:

1) It looks better
2) Sounds better
3) Has a better manual gear change (the nicest I have had in a Porsche)
4) The interior is an order of magnitude better
5) It is faster
6) Has more grip
7) It has more room (especially rear seats)

I could go on. The steering is fine and the brakes excellent (ceramics).

I really cannot fault it.

£40k better than a 997 GTS. Depends on your budget

[Al's 991]

I had a 996, 997 and now have a 991 all s models. the 991 was my first PDK box. I have loved all the cars. I have been lucky enough to be able to get on to the next model as they came out and each one has been a step change for the better. I have to say my 991 is just fantastic. It's v fast makes a lovely sound ( sports + is something else ). I can cruise all the way from Norfolk to Cornwall without stopping and feel ok at the finish.

[ORD]

Ernesto said:

I recently bought a manual 991 GTS.

I have owned many Porsches and reckon the 991 GTS is the best all-round Porsche I have owned. Of course it is a compromise, like all Porsches, but in overall terms it is hard to fault.

Compared to the 997 I would say:

1) It looks better
2) Sounds better
3) Has a better manual gear change (the nicest I have had in a Porsche)
4) The interior is an order of magnitude better
5) It is faster
6) Has more grip
7) It has more room (especially rear seats)

I could go on. The steering is fine and the brakes excellent (ceramics).

I really cannot fault it.

£40k better than a 997 GTS. Depends on your budget

Shows you how many things are subjective. I can't stand the 991 interior- it looks very Audi to me!

Interesting re back seats. I am always amazed how tiny they are and hadnt noticed the 997 being any smaller.

[david hockney]

Ernesto said:

I recently bought a manual 991 GTS.

I have owned many Porsches and reckon the 991 GTS is the best all-round Porsche I have owned. Of course it is a compromise, like all Porsches, but in overall terms it is hard to fault.

Compared to the 997 I would say:

1) It looks better
2) Sounds better
3) Has a better manual gear change (the nicest I have had in a Porsche)
4) The interior is an order of magnitude better
5) It is faster
6) Has more grip
7) It has more room (especially rear seats)

I could go on. The steering is fine and the brakes excellent (ceramics).

I really cannot fault it.

£40k better than a 997 GTS. Depends on your budget

+1

All my previous cars feel very mundane compared to the 991 GTS-,
I can only guess that many folk who criticise the 991 have never actually owned
or driven one.

[Ernesto]

The rear seats have Isofix attachments which means you can actually fit a child seat. I struggled to get any child seat in the back of a 997.

And regarding the 'Audi-like' interior.....Audi is much better!

[wilkos]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I understand exactly what you are complaining about, I just don't agree with you. The bit you miss though is that the people who buy new Porsches are different to those that buy older ones. They are often older and have different priorities. Porsche completely understand the market for their new cars, and make what the majority want.
I remember a friend of mine taking me out in his old turbo4. It was worth a fortune, but old, outdated, and not very fast. The gearbox sounded awful and he daren't drive it hard in awe it killed him. I found no joy in it at all.

He old no boxster was a great car but having done 11k miles in 6 years in one, I eventually found it pointless as for most drives I chose to take my 330d as most miles driven 99% are a chore, and the 1% didn't outweighs the 99% enough for me to use the boxster.
The 997 just about manger to do the 99% but could still be a chore. The 991 is used every day and I never think of running a luxo barge next to it. That's why for me it's just better

Edited by wilkos on Friday 8th May 14:09

[wilkos]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

So did you miss the bit where I said I found the 997 overly communicative and wearing on longer journeys, or that I found the brake pedal too hard.
The 991 steering is good enough that I can place the car accurately and I can tell exactly what the front tyres are doing. The brakes are less thigh busting to push but still accurate enough in their feel that you can hold them at the point of lock up without abs intervening.

I suggest you use one for an extended mileage and get to know one well before you rule against them.

I

[DMC2]

david hockney said:

Ernesto said:

I recently bought a manual 991 GTS.

I have owned many Porsches and reckon the 991 GTS is the best all-round Porsche I have owned. Of course it is a compromise, like all Porsches, but in overall terms it is hard to fault.

Compared to the 997 I would say:

1) It looks better
2) Sounds better
3) Has a better manual gear change (the nicest I have had in a Porsche)
4) The interior is an order of magnitude better
5) It is faster
6) Has more grip
7) It has more room (especially rear seats)

I could go on. The steering is fine and the brakes excellent (ceramics).

I really cannot fault it.

£40k better than a 997 GTS. Depends on your budget

+1

All my previous cars feel very mundane compared to the 991 GTS-,
I can only guess that many folk who criticise the 991 have never actually owned
or driven one.

+2

I'm loving my 991 GTS. What an amazing all round car. I ran out and bought one when I realised it could be the last NA 911 ever built with rear seats....

[charliedb2]

Thanks all for your input - I test drove a 991 carrera today with PDK, PASM and Sports plus.

Overall I was very impressed with the performance (feels much more than 350hp) and the handling. The interior was nice although a couple of noticeable rattles from air vents on the dash which porsche tell me they would sort before handover of the car. You could also tell that the previous owner had been putting something in the back (probably golf clubs) and that had left some marks in the back which made me think it had been given a tough first 3 years of life (27,000 miles). However i will be doing the same so maybe I should not be so precious.

It definitely lived up to expectations though, I am in two minds whether I try a 997 C2S for comparison. I had another quick look on Porsche approved and there were no gen 2's with less than 30k miles on for less than £50k! I don't see that as good value really. I could go independent but I do really want to stick to Porsche approved as I value the 2 year warranty rather than go independent.

It looks like a 991 may fit the bill.

Edited by charliedb2 on Friday 8th May 15:17

[hygt2]

wilkos said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

So did you miss the bit where I said I found the 997 overly communicative and wearing on longer journeys, or that I found the brake pedal too hard.

Funny that I actually find the 997 not communicative enough. I have chosen the 996 Turbo manual as my daily driver in central London as I find the automatic not raw enough. And as for the 997 C2S or Turbo, forget it as I find them even less raw. Having said that, my brakes need 38kg of pedal pressure to stop properly. Is that too much pedal pressure for you?

Don't get me wrong, I love driving my W220 S-Class also but I expect a sports car to be raw and challenging, like being able to do a perfect double de-clutch heel and toe down change on my way to work every day. (I use my S-Class as a daily driver also on the days I need to carry more than me and 1 passenger).

[hygt2]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I can do it so why not practice more often? It is satisfying and I find the gears slot in more easily (in fact I am very quick on the clutch where I sometimes think the clutch action is redundant)

I learned double de-clutch when my first car in 98 was a Sierra with a Pinto engine and a gearbox with very worn synchromesh. I still coach advanced driving and I sometimes force the students to double de-clutch if they are rushing a gear change, especially on response type courses where they are trying to make maximum progress.

[hygt2]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Other than minimising wear on the synchromesh, very little benefit between a single de-clutch and a double de-clutch rev matching or heel and toe gear change. I often see students forcing the gear stick in rather than slow down the gear change and give the synchromesh a bit more time to sync the shafts speed. That's when I would suggest a double rather than a single de-clutch to slow down their gear change.

I love driving and having done the IAM and HPC courses and now coaches advance driving in my spare time, I have been asked to demonstrate driving in a pre-72 911, 60s Spitfire and 50s Bristol and I am expected to drive them to an advanced standard. I keep these skills in my "tool bag" and practice regularly so I'm sharp all the time.

It is a bit like tennis when you know you will win the point, you can put some excitement in by spinning a drop shot. Unnecessary but satisfying nevertheless.

One skill I am not perfect at is overtaking on single carriageways (country lanes) as it is hard to find NSL near central London I can go and practice on. My last drive with a non-Met police instructor a few months ago, I could only achieve c.75% of all the overtaking opportunities we both spotted in our BMW 330d - mainly because I engage too late and not in position. Lack of practice is the culprit and applies to a lot of Met or District Cat 1 drivers working in inner cities.

Edited by hygt2 on Friday 8th May 19:25

[ORD]

hygt2 said:

Other than minimising wear on the synchromesh, very little benefit between a single de-clutch and a double de-clutch rev matching or heel and toe gear change. I often see students forcing the gear stick in rather than slow down the gear change and give the synchromesh a bit more time to sync the shafts speed. That's when I would suggest a double rather than a single de-clutch to slow down their gear change.

I love driving and having done the IAM and HPC courses and now coaches advance driving in my spare time, I have been asked to demonstrate driving in a pre-72 911, 60s Spitfire and 50s Bristol and I am expected to drive them to an advanced standard. I keep these skills in my "tool bag" and practice regularly so I'm sharp all the time.

It is a bit like tennis when you know you will win the point, you can put some excitement in by spinning a drop shot. Unnecessary but satisfying nevertheless.

One skill I am not perfect at is overtaking on single carriageways (country lanes) as it is hard to find NSL near central London I can go and practice on. My last drive with a non-Met police instructor a few months ago, I could only achieve c.75% of all the overtaking opportunities we both spotted in our BMW 330d - mainly because I engage too late and not in position. Lack of practice is the culprit and applies to a lot of Met or District Cat 1 drivers working in inner cities.

Edited by hygt2 on Friday 8th May 19:25

Or maybe you are just suitably cautious! I see a lot of very poor overtaking by police cars (and others). I had to brake to a standstill recently when a police car (not with lights and siren) overtake a lorry coming the other way on an NSL stretch. Awful awful driving, especially as there wasn't a single car behind me and there would have been plenty of time to pass after I cleared him.
I think people forget that it's not a missed overtake if it only becomes clear it would have been safe once the time to commit has passed. That's not a missed overtake, as it was never on given what you could see at the appropriate time. That's proper technique and care.

[nigestar]

Ernesto said:

I recently bought a manual 991 GTS.

I have owned many Porsches and reckon the 991 GTS is the best all-round Porsche I have owned. Of course it is a compromise, like all Porsches, but in overall terms it is hard to fault.

Compared to the 997 I would say:

1) It looks better
2) Sounds better
3) Has a better manual gear change (the nicest I have had in a Porsche)
4) The interior is an order of magnitude better
5) It is faster
6) Has more grip
7) It has more room (especially rear seats)

I could go on. The steering is fine and the brakes excellent (ceramics).

I really cannot fault it.

£40k better than a 997 GTS. Depends on your budget

All true. But for a 60k budget a 997 GTS is still great car. There is a great review of 991 v 997 GTS in Total 911 lat month

[hygt2]

ORD said:

Or maybe you are just suitably cautious! I see a lot of very poor overtaking by police cars (and others). I had to brake to a standstill recently when a police car (not with lights and siren) overtake a lorry coming the other way on an NSL stretch. Awful awful driving, especially as there wasn't a single car behind me and there would have been plenty of time to pass after I cleared him.
I think people forget that it's not a missed overtake if it only becomes clear it would have been safe once the time to commit has passed. That's not a missed overtake, as it was never on given what you could see at the appropriate time. That's proper technique and care.

Agree - I would only commit when in position and can complete the overtake in half of the distance where I can stop in the distance I can see. Essentially changing the attitude from driving on single carriageway (being able to stop in the distance I can see) to driving on single track. I know some officers would go up to two-thirds or even 3/4 of the straight but if they come across an oncoming car (who might also be "making progress"), the situation you described will materialised.

But I digress.

I think both 997.2 and 991 are fantastic cars but they drive quite differently. Only you can decide which car and model and spec you personally prefer.

Depreciation-wise, 997.2 GTS manual should hold its value better because the supply and demand and clientele are different between a new Porsche and an old Porsche. Given enthusiasts buying used is more likely to buy 3-pedal and that over 90% of new 911s are ordered with PDK, I expect manual will be a better bet. Also, monotone colours (white, black and all the silver/grey in between) may be a safe choice and inoffensive when new or to second/third owners at 2-5 years old, but the situation changes as they get older and more vibrant colours (yellow, red, etc.) become more desirable, again supply and demand again will push those prices up. See how much more speed yellow 996 or 997.1 are worth than the monotone colours.

If you want a 991, I expect a 991 in speed yellow with the duck tail rear lid, sport seats, PSE, X51 and some tasty interior options will also hold its value above other 991s I see in the city of London once 5-6 years old.

[hygt2]

charliedb2 said:

I have to say the turbo idea makes sense in many ways, Amari have a nice looking one for £60k. However I am going to be doing around 14k miles a year so not sure if a turbo is going fit the bill as running costs may be too high.

Funny you mention about the mileage, my 996T does 10-12k a year as my winter daily heck (because of its 4WD and winter tyres). I am just tucking my car away now until mid-autumn. I would not say servicing costs would be substantially higher than other Turbos which do half the mileage. Obviously fuel costs will be higher and wear and tear items will need more frequent replacement on a time basis but not on a mileage basis.

Part prices for Turbo will definitely be higher than a C2 but as you are buying from OPC with warranty, you should be fine. My car had extended warranty for all 10 years so the costs are consistent.