interestingly priced 964
Discussion
I know Tom well and have had a bare metal repaint done by him on my own 964. He is a stand up guy and was incredibly patient and helpful during my work which included several last minute changes in spec from me. Rubystone is a marmite colour but for someone who likes it this car is a no brainer .. This car is sorted and wanting for nothing. I would not be confident in saying the same thing of the other cars for sale quoted in this thread. I know my 964s, have seen many and in almost every case cars that looked great in adverts still needed thousands spending on them in the near future.
Comments about what these cars used to be worth are totally pointless, the market has moved on. Whether we're in a bubble or not is a different matter.
Comments about what these cars used to be worth are totally pointless, the market has moved on. Whether we're in a bubble or not is a different matter.
g7jhp said:
An original colour, totally standard 964 (even Guards/cream) is not £55k it's circa £35k (asking price).
See two examples below:
Guards Red 1992 964 C4 with 98k miles at LMP for £35k
Guards Red 1989 964 C4 with 85k miles at 4 Star Classics for £36k
I agree if you modify a 964 you will narrow the market. Many of these projects cost a fortune and then when the 'project builder' comes to sell they don't get their money back. Simply adding up all the parts bills and labour time gives you a build cost, but isn't a guide to market value. Lately due to the big hikes in aircooled prices some of these cars have been fetching good prices.
I deliberately used the term 'market price'.
And yes, it's very rare indeed to get back to cost of modifications, although recently I bid more then I should have on a car because it had a twin plug engine. The rest of the car was not completely to my taste, but could be rectified. The engine was what attracted me to it.
As a comparison to the Rubystone Red 964 C4 with 130k miles at LeMass for £55k, the Diamond Blue 1990 964 C4 with 3.8 Engine Conversion at RPM with warranty for £55k is a interesting alternative. The colour is stunning but subtle, it has a 3.8 litre engine rebuild and a warranty.
If these cars were 964 C2's they'd have a lot more interest.
The LeMass car is a lovely and the attention to detail has to be applauded, although it does look like it was built as a 'promotional vehicle' for the business with LeMass logos on the brake calipers,interior rear shelf carpet and speedo.
I still think it requires buckets to finish the car (which is seemed to have had at one stage).
The value is probably circa £42-48k to the right person who wants a rubystone red 964 C4.
See two examples below:
Guards Red 1992 964 C4 with 98k miles at LMP for £35k
Guards Red 1989 964 C4 with 85k miles at 4 Star Classics for £36k
I agree if you modify a 964 you will narrow the market. Many of these projects cost a fortune and then when the 'project builder' comes to sell they don't get their money back. Simply adding up all the parts bills and labour time gives you a build cost, but isn't a guide to market value. Lately due to the big hikes in aircooled prices some of these cars have been fetching good prices.
I deliberately used the term 'market price'.
And yes, it's very rare indeed to get back to cost of modifications, although recently I bid more then I should have on a car because it had a twin plug engine. The rest of the car was not completely to my taste, but could be rectified. The engine was what attracted me to it.
As a comparison to the Rubystone Red 964 C4 with 130k miles at LeMass for £55k, the Diamond Blue 1990 964 C4 with 3.8 Engine Conversion at RPM with warranty for £55k is a interesting alternative. The colour is stunning but subtle, it has a 3.8 litre engine rebuild and a warranty.
If these cars were 964 C2's they'd have a lot more interest.
The LeMass car is a lovely and the attention to detail has to be applauded, although it does look like it was built as a 'promotional vehicle' for the business with LeMass logos on the brake calipers,interior rear shelf carpet and speedo.
I still think it requires buckets to finish the car (which is seemed to have had at one stage).
The value is probably circa £42-48k to the right person who wants a rubystone red 964 C4.
Rubystone is my favourite 964 colour, I absolutely love it - more than even Maritime!
This is a stunning car, no doubt. I do feel that the price reflects (too literally, in my opinion) the money which has been spent on it.
I think that's a problem with modified cars. One could buy a £20k car and spend another £20k on it. That doesn't necessarily mean it's worth £40k if an identical condition car can be had for £30k.
But the as always, a car is only worth what someone will pay for it so good luck to the seller. I'm sure it won't hang around for too long, it is a 964..
This is a stunning car, no doubt. I do feel that the price reflects (too literally, in my opinion) the money which has been spent on it.
I think that's a problem with modified cars. One could buy a £20k car and spend another £20k on it. That doesn't necessarily mean it's worth £40k if an identical condition car can be had for £30k.
But the as always, a car is only worth what someone will pay for it so good luck to the seller. I'm sure it won't hang around for too long, it is a 964..
I've known Tom from Lemass Automotive for many years. He's become the go to guy for restoring 964s, he's painted more of them than any other UK painter - I'm sure. I've seen his work up close countless times since he is a member of the World 964 Owners and has painted many of their cars, his work is very highly regarded by the group. He's painted my 964 and is about to undertake a major bare metal job for me on the car.
That rubystone car was the subject of a bare metal respray with alot of custom bodywork, the interior has been retrimmed very well indeed and knowing him the mechanicals will be spot on also.
The most expensive 964s are either the low mileage, rare cars or those that have been modified/restored with the most desirable mods. I believe you couldn't build this car for the price he selling at.
Cheers,
That rubystone car was the subject of a bare metal respray with alot of custom bodywork, the interior has been retrimmed very well indeed and knowing him the mechanicals will be spot on also.
The most expensive 964s are either the low mileage, rare cars or those that have been modified/restored with the most desirable mods. I believe you couldn't build this car for the price he selling at.
Cheers,
Edited by BLACK-BETTY on Monday 27th July 10:40
There is a fair bit of kite flying where price is concerned but many other traders are trying the same tactic. Is it a good car? Who knows until it's inspected, but a nice paint job does not mean a nice car, you can put lipstick on a pig... but it's still a pig. The advert description is as out there as the price, painting a few 964's does not mean you can be described as a reputed marque specialist imho.
BLACK-BETTY said:
The most expensive 964s are either the low mileage, rare cars or those that have been modified/restored with the most desirable mods. I believe you couldn't build this car for the price he selling at.
The value of the most expensive 964's is down to model, spec, condition, originality, mileage.Ideal for the majority being a low mileage unmodified, original colour, manual 964 C2 coupe (excluding RS).
High mileage, modified, colour change C4 is always going to be more niche and will sell if priced correctly. But you only need one buyer.
Just because you couldn't build his car for the price he is selling it at, doesn't make it worth the asking price!
ras62 said:
painting a few 964's does not mean you can be described as a reputed marque specialist imho.
So what does then ? I've seen early 70's cars, 912's, 993's (just did a colour change on a 993 Turbo and it's mint), Cayenne's, Panamera's added to many BMW's Merc's and VW's that have been through Tom's place.
Why don't you go and have a look at the car / his work and then you will be able to see for yourself rather than creating an opinion from behind your keyboard.
g7jhp said:
BLACK-BETTY said:
The most expensive 964s are either the low mileage, rare cars or those that have been modified/restored with the most desirable mods. I believe you couldn't build this car for the price he selling at.
The value of the most expensive 964's is down to model, spec, condition, originality, mileage.Ideal for the majority being a low mileage unmodified, original colour, manual 964 C2 coupe (excluding RS).
High mileage, modified, colour change C4 is always going to be more niche and will sell if priced correctly. But you only need one buyer.
Just because you couldn't build his car for the price he is selling it at, doesn't make it worth the asking price!
I assume all the people that buy and like C4s have never driven a C2. They're the biggest pile of shyte I've ever driven, and the only value in a C4 to me is how cheaply I can convert it to C2.
I love the colour of this car, and the wheels, but for me I have to factor in the cost to convert to C2, and remove all the Lemass branded tat.
I love the colour of this car, and the wheels, but for me I have to factor in the cost to convert to C2, and remove all the Lemass branded tat.
wildman0609 said:
I assume all the people that buy and like C4s have never driven a C2. They're the biggest pile of shyte I've ever driven, and the only value in a C4 to me is how cheaply I can convert it to C2.
I love the colour of this car, and the wheels, but for me I have to factor in the cost to convert to C2, and remove all the Lemass branded tat.
interesting is this easy to do? We could start a business covering tips and C4s to C2 manuals!I love the colour of this car, and the wheels, but for me I have to factor in the cost to convert to C2, and remove all the Lemass branded tat.
jrampton said:
ras62 said:
painting a few 964's does not mean you can be described as a reputed marque specialist imho.
So what does then ? I've seen early 70's cars, 912's, 993's (just did a colour change on a 993 Turbo and it's mint), Cayenne's, Panamera's added to many BMW's Merc's and VW's that have been through Tom's place.
Why don't you go and have a look at the car / his work and then you will be able to see for yourself rather than creating an opinion from behind your keyboard.
Tom sounds like a nice guy but we're discussing the value of a 130k mile 964 C4 not the chap selling it. The add screams hype and it is devoid of detail. Who did the top end rebuild 6 years ago and who maintains the car? What has been done in recent years? What is the service history like? Great its got KW suspension, but to claim it rides amazingly and handling vastly improved at that ride hight is complete nonsense as anyone who knows the 964 will tell you. Thread link even shows changing the build sticker under the hood to show the correct paint code! Sorry its all a bit innit bruv for my liking. Just my 2p.
IMI A said:
interesting is this easy to do? We could start a business covering tips and C4s to C2 manuals!
all the C2 parts fit in a C4 shell, so it can't be that hard.Both my 964s are already are rwd so haven't the need to bother at the moment. But I have been considering a 964 road car in the future and converting a C4 to C2 isn't out of the question.
Slippydiff said:
Owned 4 RS's and a C2. Driven a couple of 4's, I think referring to them as shyte (sic) is doing them an injustice. With suitably fettled suspension they're an excellent all year round piece of kit with the benefit they have proper lockable diffs for when the going gets really tough. Added to which the C4 pressurised braking system is superior to that in the C2.
So you like C4s so little that you've never owned one. I only had standard brakes in a C2 for a few races before I upgraded to big reds and Tilton pedal box, so can't comment on brakes. The C4s feel too heavy and too much understeer for my liking. I very rarely drive Porsche's on the road (at the moment I don't even have a Porsche road car, I have 2x 964 race cars, 964cup/RSR and C2/3.8) which probably is what drives my opinion on them.
When I say shyte, I mean shyte for a Porsche, they're obviously still better than some other marques.
BLACK-BETTY said:
So you quoted a line from an article about 964 values, written by 964 fan boys who own 964's. Hardly objective!Keep drinking the 964 Kool-Aid, Frank!
A car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it...
Modifying a car will always narrow your market and ultimately you won't get back what you've put into it!
But price wise, you've got to start somewhere and don't forget they're not making any more.
I'm sure anyone interested in this 964 will do their due-diligence and ask all the right questions, view the car and have it inspected.
Just like houses, past values are irrelevant, it's the current market that dictates the price!
As someone said, it only takes one person to love it, two and your laughing!
How many of us would of bought multiple houses and certain cars if we knew they were going to go through the roof in years to come.!?
Now going off the OP's topic, I know Tom, he's a top bloke and I plan to have him do some mods to my 964 (yes it's a Carrera 4) in the future.
Modifying a car will always narrow your market and ultimately you won't get back what you've put into it!
But price wise, you've got to start somewhere and don't forget they're not making any more.
I'm sure anyone interested in this 964 will do their due-diligence and ask all the right questions, view the car and have it inspected.
Just like houses, past values are irrelevant, it's the current market that dictates the price!
As someone said, it only takes one person to love it, two and your laughing!
How many of us would of bought multiple houses and certain cars if we knew they were going to go through the roof in years to come.!?
Now going off the OP's topic, I know Tom, he's a top bloke and I plan to have him do some mods to my 964 (yes it's a Carrera 4) in the future.
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