911 Prices - Re-adjustment time soon
Discussion
Re : can't think of any other marque or model where the previous generation model commands a premium over the next incarnation. It dont make any sense my friends.
Some Examples of older being more expensive:
1. 911 2.2s / 2.7rs (1973ish variety) v Late 70's Impact bumper cars
2. 911 3.2 G50's V early 964's
3. 246 dino v 308gt4 or 308Gts
4. Tr6 v Tr7
5. Am V8 v Early Virage
The list goes on maybe some extreme examples but hopefully you get my point.
As for 993 v 996 I am probably biasd but its just the sense of occasion with the 993. Someone else hit the nail on the head with the " You have to drive a 993 and not listen to the radio etc etc"
Until I owned one I would have never believed this but it is so true it took me about 6000 miles to learn how to drive mine averagely god know's how long it will take me to learn to drive it well.
Everything else I have had has been jump in and go !!
>> Edited by phib on Wednesday 2nd February 09:56
Some Examples of older being more expensive:
1. 911 2.2s / 2.7rs (1973ish variety) v Late 70's Impact bumper cars
2. 911 3.2 G50's V early 964's
3. 246 dino v 308gt4 or 308Gts
4. Tr6 v Tr7
5. Am V8 v Early Virage
The list goes on maybe some extreme examples but hopefully you get my point.
As for 993 v 996 I am probably biasd but its just the sense of occasion with the 993. Someone else hit the nail on the head with the " You have to drive a 993 and not listen to the radio etc etc"
Until I owned one I would have never believed this but it is so true it took me about 6000 miles to learn how to drive mine averagely god know's how long it will take me to learn to drive it well.
Everything else I have had has been jump in and go !!
>> Edited by phib on Wednesday 2nd February 09:56
The trouble with 996s is that there are too many of them and they look like Boxsters (and there are too many of them, too!). Apart from that, they're too much like any modern German car to drive until - I assume - you get onto a track. Driving a 993 is all pleasure, all the time, and its looks attract much more attention. All IMHO, of course! 
Shakman said:
I can't think of any other marque or model where the previous generation model commands a premium over the next incarnation. It dont make any sense my friends.
Also, if LHD F355s are now almost £30k, then why should a 993 Turbo be any more ? I know, very different characteristics, but they compete for the same market segment, and F355s are considerbly more rare.
Let me introduce you to a concept called "Market driven demand".............
Shakman said:
I can't think of any other marque or model where the previous generation model commands a premium over the next incarnation. It dont make any sense my friends.
How about Mk I and II Golf GTIs vs Mk III or even E30 M3 vs E36 M3.
Standard, clean R32 GTR Skylines are now going up in value where as R33 GTRs are still in depreciating.
It makes perfect sense to me why this is the case.
Do you want any more examples?
When Porsche introduced the 996 and Boxster they made a commercial decision to make more profit per car sold.
How did they acheive this? Easy, common parts accross both model ranges, lesser build quality and less value for slightly higher prices.
So, looking back at the 993 its great value for money. Buy one and you get the end of the line of development of an engineering process lasting of over 25 years, which upon reflection was sold at below the going rate by todays commercial standards
Bargain!
How did they acheive this? Easy, common parts accross both model ranges, lesser build quality and less value for slightly higher prices.
So, looking back at the 993 its great value for money. Buy one and you get the end of the line of development of an engineering process lasting of over 25 years, which upon reflection was sold at below the going rate by todays commercial standards
Bargain!
Obviously the 993 is the Porsche purist's choice, last of the air-cooled and all that blaah blaah. But for me the 3 factors that have really negatively affected the prices of the 996 models compared to those of 993s are:
- much higher volume production and sales than for previous 911s. Inevitably the market ends up a bit swamped with second hand examples and prices are driven down. Added to this, some of the potential buyers of a 2nd hand 911 buy Boxsters instead, reducing further the pool of buyers.
- stories of engine problems including block porosity and RMS failures. Even if these issues ultimately only affect a small proportion of the 996s produced, the 2nd hand market sanctions through pricing, especially as the vehicles start to leave the comfort of the manufacturer's umbrella. For the moment the 993 has an unblemished record and is considered fairly bullet-proof if servicing requirements are followed.
- the look of the 996 series. A ticklish and subjective subject, but many people weren't keen on the overall look, runny egg lights, ergonomically superior but not Porsche "trad" interior, etc. It is not a coincidence that for the 997 they have gone back to a front end that is more 993-like.
Overall I think that they lost a few of the old 911 afficionados when they produced the 996. I bought my 993tt (
) from a fellow who was planning on changing to more modern Porsche. When I spoke to him a few weeks later, he said that he'd tried a couple of 996s, it just wasn't the same anymore and he was off to buy a Merc!
- much higher volume production and sales than for previous 911s. Inevitably the market ends up a bit swamped with second hand examples and prices are driven down. Added to this, some of the potential buyers of a 2nd hand 911 buy Boxsters instead, reducing further the pool of buyers.
- stories of engine problems including block porosity and RMS failures. Even if these issues ultimately only affect a small proportion of the 996s produced, the 2nd hand market sanctions through pricing, especially as the vehicles start to leave the comfort of the manufacturer's umbrella. For the moment the 993 has an unblemished record and is considered fairly bullet-proof if servicing requirements are followed.
- the look of the 996 series. A ticklish and subjective subject, but many people weren't keen on the overall look, runny egg lights, ergonomically superior but not Porsche "trad" interior, etc. It is not a coincidence that for the 997 they have gone back to a front end that is more 993-like.
Overall I think that they lost a few of the old 911 afficionados when they produced the 996. I bought my 993tt (
) from a fellow who was planning on changing to more modern Porsche. When I spoke to him a few weeks later, he said that he'd tried a couple of 996s, it just wasn't the same anymore and he was off to buy a Merc!bennno said:
If the 996 seemed 'better' to me, then I would sell my 964 now and buy one!
IIRC Porsche made a lot more 996s than 993s so that adds to the supply/demand thing as well. Plus there's the RMS issue on 996 which may put some people off.
I doubt that the introduction of the 997 will have too much of a ripple effect, at least on the £35k cars that you're looking at.
so are you saying the 964 is better than a 996? that would be a first.
having driven and having been in a position to have bought either i found the 993 felt very old fashioned and the 996 much more modern. the 996 is lighter,more powerful and faster and rated as the better car by a number of well respected journalists.
bennno
Bennno, if you think that...
modern = better
faster = better
then well done you bought the right car
I however, prefer...
classic looks
air-cooled sound
smaller dimensions
more challenging drive & handling
faster would be nice of course!
phib said:
As for 993 v 996 I am probably biasd but its just the sense of occasion with the 993. Someone else hit the nail on the head with the " You have to drive a 993 and not listen to the radio etc etc"
Until I owned one I would have never believed this but it is so true it took me about 6000 miles to learn how to drive mine averagely god know's how long it will take me to learn to drive it well.
Everything else I have had has been jump in and go !!
>> Edited by phib on Wednesday 2nd February 09:56
Yes, the 996's an easy modern car to drive and so is the BWM M3. I really couldn't choose between the two, especially when a 5 year old 996 was priced like a new M3. I ended up in a 993 having seen quite a few 'secondhand' 996's - after all, some of the 996's are now 6 / 7 years old.
>> Edited by marx on Wednesday 2nd February 18:52
. bennno said:
so are you saying the 964 is better than a 996? that would be a first.
having driven and having been in a position to have bought either i found the 993 felt very old fashioned and the 996 much more modern. the 996 is lighter,more powerful and faster and rated as the better car by a number of well respected journalists.
bennno
I have owned both a 993 and a 996. What you say misses the point.
The 996 is not better than the 993. OK, its faster, quieter, smoother. But its not as well made and not as engaging to own.
Having owned both, I can say that it is the simple 993 C2 varioram that I miss the most . The 996 was just a car.
toppstuff said:
so are you saying the 964 is better than a 996? that would be a first.
having driven and having been in a position to have bought either i found the 993 felt very old fashioned and the 996 much more modern. the 996 is lighter,more powerful and faster and rated as the better car by a number of well respected journalists.
bennno
I would tend to agree but, interestingly, find that the 993 is, itself, a far less involving driving experience than my 1st 911; a LHD 204 bhp SC Targa. As no less a luminary than Al Clark said, comparing his last 356 speedster to his 911 Carrera Cab
"The 911 is a conversation on the phone; with the 356 you're in the room"
I have owned both a 993 and a 996. What you say misses the point.
The 996 is not better than the 993. OK, its faster, quieter, smoother. But its not as well made and not as engaging to own.
Having owned both, I can say that it is the simple 993 C2 varioram that I miss the most . The 996 was just a car.
No offence in what follows to the many PH Porsche pals who have 993's and 996's, they know I've kept hold of a 964, well OK a 965.
I've driven, and been driven in, 993 and 996 iterations and found them immensely capable, they can do things that, if I repeated the attempt would take me straight to the scene of the accident. Not (yet) driven or been passengered in a 997, and while I try to keep an open mind I can't see the 965 making way for one just yet.
Apart from its individuality, my 965 really IS an over-engineered Porsche. Ninemeister has described the 993TT bottom end as made of monkey metal in comparison (don't remember him saying it in jest) and that car is no runt of the litter not in any shape or form, so what I guess he means is that the 965 generation of turbo is very solidly engineered, more positive not less negative if you see what I mean.
The driving experience is of course entirely different, and I regard even the 993 experience as too sanitised. Personal taste then, but I suspect that a lot of 911 owners found the right balance of raw and refined in the 993, and yes it has a cute ass. Only my own car's ass is cuter, by design
So price-wise I suspect the 996 will suffer at the hands of the 997 as they appear to share a lot of DNA, but good 993's will hold particularly the TT. I don't worry much about what happens to 964/5 prices for reasons already stated.
I've driven, and been driven in, 993 and 996 iterations and found them immensely capable, they can do things that, if I repeated the attempt would take me straight to the scene of the accident. Not (yet) driven or been passengered in a 997, and while I try to keep an open mind I can't see the 965 making way for one just yet.
Apart from its individuality, my 965 really IS an over-engineered Porsche. Ninemeister has described the 993TT bottom end as made of monkey metal in comparison (don't remember him saying it in jest) and that car is no runt of the litter not in any shape or form, so what I guess he means is that the 965 generation of turbo is very solidly engineered, more positive not less negative if you see what I mean.
The driving experience is of course entirely different, and I regard even the 993 experience as too sanitised. Personal taste then, but I suspect that a lot of 911 owners found the right balance of raw and refined in the 993, and yes it has a cute ass. Only my own car's ass is cuter, by design
So price-wise I suspect the 996 will suffer at the hands of the 997 as they appear to share a lot of DNA, but good 993's will hold particularly the TT. I don't worry much about what happens to 964/5 prices for reasons already stated.
clapham993 said:
bennno said:
so are you saying the 964 is better than a 996? that would be a first.
having driven and having been in a position to have bought either i found the 993 felt very old fashioned and the 996 much more modern. the 996 is lighter,more powerful and faster and rated as the better car by a number of well respected journalists.
bennno
I would tend to agree but, interestingly, find that the 993 is, itself, a far less involving driving experience than my 1st 911; a LHD 204 bhp SC Targa. As no less a luminary than Al Clark said, comparing his last 356 speedster to his 911 Carrera Cab
"The 911 is a conversation on the phone; with the 356 you're in the room"
I have owned both a 993 and a 996. What you say misses the point.
The 996 is not better than the 993. OK, its faster, quieter, smoother. But its not as well made and not as engaging to own.
Having owned both, I can say that it is the simple 993 C2 varioram that I miss the most . The 996 was just a car.
I think that sums it up perfectly. Not wanting to big myself up, but I've owned a lot of 911s, including 2 996s. I remember all the air-cooled cars like old girlfriends, I remember the 996s like good cars. I currently have a turbo II 3.6 which I treat like a family member. My 997 arrives in May, and it will simply be a great everyday car.
993 v 996 = Motoring Icon V A better car that you'll ultimately forget.
"The main reason I'd not buy a 964 is that it has power steering."
Bollocks -have you ever driven one?
It's useful at parking speeds and weighs up nicely on the move -some ppl don't even realize they've got PAS!!
And as my esteemed friend Iguana says (and where's Le Domster when you need him? -pissing thru a hedge backwards as usual -have you seen his haircut, if you can call it that...) you can get a tidy LHD 964RS sans PAS for that money.
Shakman -See PH ads, Fergus' car still for sale??
I also know of a few more if you are serious -PM me.
Rgds
Mel
Bollocks -have you ever driven one?
It's useful at parking speeds and weighs up nicely on the move -some ppl don't even realize they've got PAS!!
And as my esteemed friend Iguana says (and where's Le Domster when you need him? -pissing thru a hedge backwards as usual -have you seen his haircut, if you can call it that...) you can get a tidy LHD 964RS sans PAS for that money.
Shakman -See PH ads, Fergus' car still for sale??
I also know of a few more if you are serious -PM me.
Rgds
Mel
"I think comparing the two is like comparing people who like records and still keep a deck like a Linn rather than buy everything on CD".
You've hit the nail on the head ,I think, LPs on a LINN do sound better than CD because they are more involving! Perhaps that is why so many prefer the 993 to the 996. Driver involvement!
>> Edited by paultje on Friday 4th February 08:38
You've hit the nail on the head ,I think, LPs on a LINN do sound better than CD because they are more involving! Perhaps that is why so many prefer the 993 to the 996. Driver involvement!
>> Edited by paultje on Friday 4th February 08:38
Nice one melv.
I'll take that as compliment then.
(PCGB Register secretary no less) I think that'll be an example of why I ain't more involved, with PCGB.
>> Edited by dilbert on Friday 4th February 21:45
Nothing but the windy sound of tumbleweed.......
I reckon our melv is yellow.
It seems "Thud and Blunder" is right.
>> Edited by dilbert on Saturday 5th February 23:18
I'll take that as compliment then.
(PCGB Register secretary no less) I think that'll be an example of why I ain't more involved, with PCGB.
>> Edited by dilbert on Friday 4th February 21:45
Nothing but the windy sound of tumbleweed.......
I reckon our melv is yellow.
It seems "Thud and Blunder" is right.
>> Edited by dilbert on Saturday 5th February 23:18
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