Is the bubble about to burst?
Discussion
MDL111 said:
Dont get this obsession with clunky heavy doors ... i want a door that is as light as possible in a drivers car
They are not particularly heavy, they just make a lovely noise / ring when shut. If you like that sort of thing....Edited by drmark on Sunday 11th September 16:33
MDL111 said:
Dont get this obsession with clunky heavy doors ... i want a door that is as light as possible in a drivers car
I agree. You see threads all the time about how to lose a shave off a couple of kilos here and there but if the door is lighter than the door on a previous model it's portrayed as some sort of negative quality cue!!! Which is nonsense. Saw a journo refer to it one time in a 996 v 964 article in Total911. I laughed at the absurdity of his comment. The fact is the modern door sound is a reflection of good engineering. What one would expect from a Porsche. What many seem to forget as well is that modern 911's have frameless doors. The glass drops as you close the door completely changing the acoustic tonality. Nothing at all to do with build quality or mass production. Quite the opposite actually. It's just a different sound. Edited by Sine Metu on Sunday 11th September 17:16
Sine Metu said:
I agree. You see threads all the time about how to lose a shave off a couple of kilos here and there but if the door is lighter than the door on a previous model it's portrayed as some sort of negative quality cue!!! Which is nonsense. Saw a journo refer to it one time in a 996 v 964 article in Total911. I laughed at the absurdity of his comment. The fact is the modern door sound is a reflection of good engineering. What one would expect from a Porsche. What many seem to forget as well is that modern 911's have frameless doors. The glass drops as you close the door completely changing the acoustic tonality. Nothing at all to do with build quality or mass production. Quite the opposite actually. It's just a different sound.
I only mentioned it as part of the character of the air cooleds - along with smell, noise etc. Nowt to do with quality or weight. Just unique to the older 911s. Edited by Sine Metu on Sunday 11th September 17:16
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think we are talking at cross purposes matey. What I mean is being objective about the qualities of the vehicle which make it enjoyable to drive and be in. It surprises me that wrt to this question you find the boxster equal to old air cooled. I haven't owned either but my very limited experience of the early cars really got under my skin in a way the 986 never got close too. I guess really for those that are addicted enough it comes down to the same argument as why people buy mechanical divers watches with 2000m depth rating or lenses like the Leica Noctilux. If we wanted to put a number on it and I could (scientist/engineer its how we think), I could say the 2.4S was to me x% better than various other cars in various ways but just like the Leica Noctilux the only way your going to get that x% is to buy the 73 2.4S or the Leica Noctilux, and hence we end up in the situation where to get that few % you have to spend 50 times as much money. It all made more sense to me when you could buy a nice 73 2.4S for £20K as it felt about right compared to other Porsches.
All moot for you though as you don't agree with the old air cooled having unique qualities not reproduced fully by newer cars.
The sorts of cars that fetch huge auction prices can be evaluated using objective and largely quantitative data.
How many were built/still exist?
How many miles/km has it covered?
Does it have the original engine and gearbox - 'matching numbers'?
Are there any modifications or repairs?
Does it have Motorsport provenance?
Has the manufacturer certified?
As to driving enjoyment - because of the obsession with mileage, very few of these cars are driven at all. They are collector's items, the enjoyment apparently is in owning it, not using it.
I would love to add an older Porsche to my 'fleet' and like many on this forum can identify an exact 'should have bought it, but didn't' moment. The problem we face is that sellers view this rising tide that lifts every boat as a reason to stick another £10k onto the prices of tired, rusty, poorly maintained 1980s 911s. I would not care if the engine and gearbox were not the ones that it left the factory with, so long as they worked perfectly - but ones that don't work stay in the cars because they add value.
Subjective enjoyment is very difficult to explain - is a cold bottle of lager more or less enjoyable than a glass of Chablis? It depends, it's relative, what's the context? How do you measure it?
How many were built/still exist?
How many miles/km has it covered?
Does it have the original engine and gearbox - 'matching numbers'?
Are there any modifications or repairs?
Does it have Motorsport provenance?
Has the manufacturer certified?
As to driving enjoyment - because of the obsession with mileage, very few of these cars are driven at all. They are collector's items, the enjoyment apparently is in owning it, not using it.
I would love to add an older Porsche to my 'fleet' and like many on this forum can identify an exact 'should have bought it, but didn't' moment. The problem we face is that sellers view this rising tide that lifts every boat as a reason to stick another £10k onto the prices of tired, rusty, poorly maintained 1980s 911s. I would not care if the engine and gearbox were not the ones that it left the factory with, so long as they worked perfectly - but ones that don't work stay in the cars because they add value.
Subjective enjoyment is very difficult to explain - is a cold bottle of lager more or less enjoyable than a glass of Chablis? It depends, it's relative, what's the context? How do you measure it?
Most of us deal,in the middle market. These top market prices affect the middle market values.
People that have older, 911's are now looking after the cars better due to the increase in value.
They are deciding, to not sell them as well in most cases.
Also due to the rise,people now cannot afford the car they would like.
Luckily there is a car, for everybody's taste and pocket to enjoy. Another point these are old cars warts and all the good and the bad. Each year will cost you money on upkeep.
People that have older, 911's are now looking after the cars better due to the increase in value.
They are deciding, to not sell them as well in most cases.
Also due to the rise,people now cannot afford the car they would like.
Luckily there is a car, for everybody's taste and pocket to enjoy. Another point these are old cars warts and all the good and the bad. Each year will cost you money on upkeep.
Edited by SEE YA on Sunday 11th September 20:48
foxsasha said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
No, it's not. Your point is clear, concise and perfectly reasonable. You find equal enjoyment from driving different vehicles. It's not an outrageous statement.Alpinestars said:
mollytherocker said:
Alpinestars said:
+1. Too much made of how the 964,3s etc drive. Some of the newer cars are more enjoyable IMO.
It depends what you find enjoyable. I get a better buzz from my Mk1 Escort and Mk2 Savage than I do my turbo!
But, admittedly, I'm not a speed freak!
It's just horses for courses......I get far more enjoyment driving my BMW 1M coupe than I got driving a 991 GTS-
I think many folk would assume the 991 (costing double the 1M ) would be 'better'....well it may be faster but was dull
in comparison . I would have thought many driving enthusiasts would view a well sorted 964 as more enjoyable and exciting to drive than a 997 or 991.
I think many folk would assume the 991 (costing double the 1M ) would be 'better'....well it may be faster but was dull
in comparison . I would have thought many driving enthusiasts would view a well sorted 964 as more enjoyable and exciting to drive than a 997 or 991.
david hockney said:
It's just horses for courses......I get far more enjoyment driving my BMW 1M coupe than I got driving a 991 GTS-
I think many folk would assume the 991 (costing double the 1M ) would be 'better'....well it may be faster but was dull
in comparison . I would have thought many driving enthusiasts would view a well sorted 964 as more enjoyable and exciting to drive than a 997 or 991.
Some contradictions in that post. Horses for courses, but a driving enthusiast should enjoy a 964 over a 997?I think many folk would assume the 991 (costing double the 1M ) would be 'better'....well it may be faster but was dull
in comparison . I would have thought many driving enthusiasts would view a well sorted 964 as more enjoyable and exciting to drive than a 997 or 991.
I enjoy my 997 over the 964 for driving experience. I enjoy the 964 for a bit of nostalgia, classic looks and old school feel, but it's nowhere near the driving experience.
Alpinestars said:
david hockney said:
It's just horses for courses......I get far more enjoyment driving my BMW 1M coupe than I got driving a 991 GTS-
I think many folk would assume the 991 (costing double the 1M ) would be 'better'....well it may be faster but was dull
in comparison . I would have thought many driving enthusiasts would view a well sorted 964 as more enjoyable and exciting to drive than a 997 or 991.
Some contradictions in that post. Horses for courses, but a driving enthusiast should enjoy a 964 over a 997?I think many folk would assume the 991 (costing double the 1M ) would be 'better'....well it may be faster but was dull
in comparison . I would have thought many driving enthusiasts would view a well sorted 964 as more enjoyable and exciting to drive than a 997 or 991.
I enjoy my 997 over the 964 for driving experience. I enjoy the 964 for a bit of nostalgia, classic looks and old school feel, but it's nowhere near the driving experience.
. The 964 C2 or even better RS have wonderful chassis which can take so much more power.If I win lottery I'm going to do this!
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