Is the bubble about to burst?
Discussion
I think that the market will understand the susbstantial difference between the Mez engined GT3's and subsequent versions. Essentially, the only thing that they have in common is the badge on the boot. Before the 991 GT3, the 996 and 997 GT3 markets were quite different but now they share a similar type of buyer. Some buyers will prefer the 996/7 and some the 991 but in time the markets will be quite different with collectors probably favouring the Mez cars as the preception is that they have motorsport pedigrees as did the 911R, 964 Clubsport and 993 GT2/ Clubsport etc before them. Whether that will change, who can tell but Motorsport provinence has always been a key factor to the Porsche collector. If Porsche decide that future GT3's should have a turbo engine, I can see the 991 merging into the same market as the 996/7 but without a direct motorsport connection, they may not be as collectable. If Porsche race a turbo 991 Cup or 991GT3 and subsiquently market a GT3 with the same engine, I can see that car being the collecable version of the 991 market and 991GT3 possibly being left out on a limb - despite the fact that it has a N/A engine. Such is the fickle nature of the collector. For what it's worth, I still think that the cooking 996Gen2 and the 997Gen1 remain undervalued when compared to the rest of the GT3 market.
All of which is a shame because despite the model all GT3's were made for blazing around a race track. It was not so long ago when track days were full of 964, 993 and 996GT3 RS's aalong with numerous 996 and 997GT3 Clubsports and even a few 3.2C/S's. These days GT3's are a relative rarity. The air cooled cars are an even rarer sight with even cooking 3.2's 964 and 993's making ever rarer appearences.
All of which is a shame because despite the model all GT3's were made for blazing around a race track. It was not so long ago when track days were full of 964, 993 and 996GT3 RS's aalong with numerous 996 and 997GT3 Clubsports and even a few 3.2C/S's. These days GT3's are a relative rarity. The air cooled cars are an even rarer sight with even cooking 3.2's 964 and 993's making ever rarer appearences.
Steve Rance said:
I think that the market will understand the susbstantial difference between the Mez engined GT3's and subsequent versions. Essentially, the only thing that they have in common is the badge on the boot. Before the 991 GT3, the 996 and 997 GT3 markets were quite different but now they share a similar type of buyer. Some buyers will prefer the 996/7 and some the 991 but in time the markets will be quite different with collectors probably favouring the Mez cars as the preception is that they have motorsport pedigrees as did the 911R, 964 Clubsport and 993 GT2/ Clubsport etc before them. Whether that will change, who can tell but Motorsport provinence has always been a key factor to the Porsche collector. If Porsche decide that future GT3's should have a turbo engine, I can see the 991 merging into the same market as the 996/7 but without a direct motorsport connection, they may not be as collectable. If Porsche race a turbo 991 Cup or 991GT3 and subsiquently market a GT3 with the same engine, I can see that car being the collecable version of the 991 market and 991GT3 possibly being left out on a limb - despite the fact that it has a N/A engine. Such is the fickle nature of the collector. For what it's worth, I still think that the cooking 996Gen2 and the 997Gen1 remain undervalued when compared to the rest of the GT3 market.
All of which is a shame because despite the model all GT3's were made for blazing around a race track. It was not so long ago when track days were full of 964, 993 and 996GT3 RS's aalong with numerous 996 and 997GT3 Clubsports and even a few 3.2C/S's. These days GT3's are a relative rarity. The air cooled cars are an even rarer sight with even cooking 3.2's 964 and 993's making ever rarer appearences.
I know a couple of nutters that ragged an almost priceless '73 rsr around silverstone and were going to race the crap out of it until one of them got basically conscripted .All of which is a shame because despite the model all GT3's were made for blazing around a race track. It was not so long ago when track days were full of 964, 993 and 996GT3 RS's aalong with numerous 996 and 997GT3 Clubsports and even a few 3.2C/S's. These days GT3's are a relative rarity. The air cooled cars are an even rarer sight with even cooking 3.2's 964 and 993's making ever rarer appearences.
Hope you are well mr Rance
Unless you are specifically looking for a clubsport, I'd go for a non clubs port version. Club sports tend to command higher prices but are not that different in terms of a driving experience. If you are particularly looking to track the car then I would probably go for a clubsport, but a lot of comfort cars were specced with CGT Carbon seats so they may be a good option. A friend had been in the market for a Clubbie for a while and there would appear to be an unwillingness to move much on price. He has been offered better deals on Comfort spec cars. I think that he has agreed something now but I'm led to believe that it's around the £80k mark. In years to come the Clubbie will probably be more sought after but a comfort is still a Mez car and therefore I suspect only marginally less collectable.
Edited by Steve Rance on Thursday 17th December 22:53
The market for 996 GT3s has died over the last 2-3 months. I tried selling mine in Oct (black/black, CS cage, PCCBs, 54k A/C, serviced every year etc) and was getting bids from dealers down to £14k below what might be a private sale price (if they bid at all, and most wouldn't) . The dealer that now has mine has dropped the price twice and it still hasn't sold (in fact they haven't received any calls on it). I doubt they will make anything on it (and their markup wasn't big to start with)
Those CS you see up around £70-75 have been getting dealer bids of £58-£60k over the last month or so. Don't believe the prices stated, the market is very weak atm.
Those CS you see up around £70-75 have been getting dealer bids of £58-£60k over the last month or so. Don't believe the prices stated, the market is very weak atm.
Mousem40 said:
The market for 996 GT3s has died over the last 2-3 months. I tried selling mine in Oct (black/black, CS cage, PCCBs, 54k A/C, serviced every year etc) and was getting bids from dealers down to £14k below what might be a private sale price (if they bid at all, and most wouldn't) . The dealer that now has mine has dropped the price twice and it still hasn't sold (in fact they haven't received any calls on it). I doubt they will make anything on it (and their markup wasn't big to start with)
Those CS you see up around £70-75 have been getting dealer bids of £58-£60k over the last month or so. Don't believe the prices stated, the market is very weak atm.
Dealer bids at 58-60k is a weak market?! Are you kidding? 3 years ago it would have been 30k and then selling at 35-40k.Those CS you see up around £70-75 have been getting dealer bids of £58-£60k over the last month or so. Don't believe the prices stated, the market is very weak atm.
Looks strong to me! Its just that some dealers are trying to push it too far.
Mousem40 said:
Don't believe the prices stated, the market is very weak atm.
I don't agree with that. 'Holy Grail' cars (low-milage/owners + lots of history) are still selling - often without being advertised. The problem I think is with owners of non-Holy-Grail cars pricing their cars at the top of the market too. I still think we are going to see some silly premiums of the real cream examples. Of course, it does get to a point where a correction is needed (NOW!) to sort the men out from the boys - too many cars now piggybacking on the back of the really special stuff. Look at the £59k BMW 1m for example
Gary81 said:
Interesting reading the 996CS prices.
Regarding the 2nd part of your note... CS at 70-75k etc.... are you still referring to 996CS cars??
I'm personally looking at 997 Gen 1 CS for a price point at 70k ish (plus some prep cost's on top (breaks,warrantee renewal, tires etc).... so 75k all in really I guess.... still over the top you think? Or about right??
I dont have personal experience of the market currently but based on what i'm told by somebody who is currently lookng for a 7/1CS under £80K for a good car is a decent price - but make sure that the car is in very good order. Regarding the 2nd part of your note... CS at 70-75k etc.... are you still referring to 996CS cars??
I'm personally looking at 997 Gen 1 CS for a price point at 70k ish (plus some prep cost's on top (breaks,warrantee renewal, tires etc).... so 75k all in really I guess.... still over the top you think? Or about right??
Gary - I was only referring to the 996 market as I have first hand experience from my sale and a couple of other friends trying to sell 996s at the same time.
Molly - of course it's all relative. But if (for example) in 2 years time the market shot up again to 150k average selling price, winter comes along and bids drop to 120k you can't still bring up history where they reached £35k and say the market is still strong. There are people I know of who've bought on the way up who stand to make a loss if they tried to sell now.
Phooey - perhaps that's true, but the majority of the market is not made up of holy grail cars, and that's what's relevant to most people.
Sorry OT - I was just trying to give some colour on the state of the 996GT3 market atm in case it resonates with the 997 market.
Molly - of course it's all relative. But if (for example) in 2 years time the market shot up again to 150k average selling price, winter comes along and bids drop to 120k you can't still bring up history where they reached £35k and say the market is still strong. There are people I know of who've bought on the way up who stand to make a loss if they tried to sell now.
Phooey - perhaps that's true, but the majority of the market is not made up of holy grail cars, and that's what's relevant to most people.
Sorry OT - I was just trying to give some colour on the state of the 996GT3 market atm in case it resonates with the 997 market.
Gary81 said:
I'm personally looking at 997 Gen 1 CS for a price point at 70k ish (plus some prep cost's on top (breaks,warrantee renewal, tires etc).... so 75k all in really I guess.... still over the top you think? Or about right??
Not wanting to pour cold water, but would the warranty cover gearbox internals too? I only ask because I understand some 997 cars have actually suffered similar gearbox issues to the 996s.Mousem40 said:
Sorry OT - I was just trying to give some colour on the state of the 996GT3 market atm in case it resonates with the 997 market.
Not really OT - I think it relevant to consider 996 and 7 GT cars within the whole market discussion. Your experience is certainly interesting.My personal experience for what it is worth:
I'm currently trying to sell a 7.1RS albeit not really putting much effort into advertising the sale (shhh don't tell the mrs
)
Currently a mean average for 7.1RS's for sale in the UK is £155K. I advertised mine for £130K. Had an offer to PX with a 996GT2, had a guy from Paris within touching distant of buying it but after 2-3weeks of emails etc he found one local to him and bought that instead. Other than that no phonecalls/emails. To me I'm not sure if this is down to seasonal market forces or due to this bubble.
I align myself with cmoose here, in that, the GT3 represents exceptional value when compared to the laughable prices of vast swathes of the air-cooled market. Due to the heritage of the Mezger, limited production numbers (1909 in the case of 7.1RS) and the fact this type of car will never be produced again, I cannot see the GT3 being adversely effected by all this market chatter.
I would never sell my car if the decision was solely down to my discretion and I'm sure many other GT3 owners have intent to keep these wonderful machines indefinitely. There may be the odd speculator here and there but as you all know, these cars really need to be driven to be enjoyed, garage-queening these is a tragedy and should be made illegal!
I'm currently trying to sell a 7.1RS albeit not really putting much effort into advertising the sale (shhh don't tell the mrs
)Currently a mean average for 7.1RS's for sale in the UK is £155K. I advertised mine for £130K. Had an offer to PX with a 996GT2, had a guy from Paris within touching distant of buying it but after 2-3weeks of emails etc he found one local to him and bought that instead. Other than that no phonecalls/emails. To me I'm not sure if this is down to seasonal market forces or due to this bubble.
I align myself with cmoose here, in that, the GT3 represents exceptional value when compared to the laughable prices of vast swathes of the air-cooled market. Due to the heritage of the Mezger, limited production numbers (1909 in the case of 7.1RS) and the fact this type of car will never be produced again, I cannot see the GT3 being adversely effected by all this market chatter.
I would never sell my car if the decision was solely down to my discretion and I'm sure many other GT3 owners have intent to keep these wonderful machines indefinitely. There may be the odd speculator here and there but as you all know, these cars really need to be driven to be enjoyed, garage-queening these is a tragedy and should be made illegal!
Richie200 said:
Other than that no phonecalls/emails. To me I'm not sure if this is down to seasonal market forces or due to this bubble.
FWIW, and I'm neither buying nor selling, but merely watching 996/7 GT and Turbo prices, I think it is at very least seasonal and too early yet to say whether anything more than that. We'd need to be well into the (hopefully) fine weather of Spring to know.Digga said:
Richie200 said:
Other than that no phonecalls/emails. To me I'm not sure if this is down to seasonal market forces or due to this bubble.
Just a point though, your car is far from standard and a GT3 especially an RS (at a price point where tracking the car has become increasingly unlikely) needs to be as standard as possible (even things that can easily be removed - they should be before you put it up for sale). People at that price point have one eye on the car's investment potential and one eye on using it. Mousem40 said:
Digga said:
Other than that no phonecalls/emails. To me I'm not sure if this is down to seasonal market forces or due to this bubble.
Just a point though, your car is far from standard and a GT3 especially an RS (at a price point where tracking the car has become increasingly unlikely) needs to be as standard as possible (even things that can easily be removed - they should be before you put it up for sale). People at that price point have one eye on the car's investment potential and one eye on using it. ). I have 2 invoices alone that are over 50K each. There has not been another developed in this way as the cost to do so is so prohibitively expensive, if Porsche had produced this car themselves the price of it today would make the 4.0l look cheap. Don't get me wrong I fully concur that the masses don't appreciate a modded car but this is not a tacky exhaust and remap job, it has been seriously developed by the best in the business. The likes of Steve Rance understand where I am coming from here
Mousem40 said:
People at that price point have one eye on the car's investment potential and one eye on using it.
I also find this a little sad. One of my best friends and I see each other 2-3 times a week, go to motorshows, track days, classic events, wine... He owns a 964RS and a 3.0RSR. He uses them absolutely as intended, as though it was his last day here. He is not rich (bought at the right time) but values the reward of driving these cars above all else. He would never dream of selling and is fully aware of what they are now worth. I was a little more apprehensive about driving in the same care free manner but an element of his great attitude has rubbed off on me a little, I think many of us here have forgotten exactly why we are here in the first place; the passion for driving should be first and foremost in our reasoning and desire to buy, not what our cars might be worth in X-years.
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