New breed of GT3 owner
Discussion
sidicks said:
DT398 said:
Must be a new PH record. Only 9 posts and 75 minutes before the barrage of 991 GT3 multi-quote defensiveness started. Really articulate posts by the OP and Oso about why they like what they like, followed by quite a lot of "my dad's better than your dad" playground nonsense. All IMHO of course, which is probably also wrong.
I guess you just aren't very good at reading.From what I can see its just a discussion about personal opinions and issues being shades of grey rather than black or white.
DT398 said:
Perfect. Please let's discuss the shades of grey involved. It's pretty relevant to this thread and what it's all about. How do you find the 991 GT3 compares on track with the 996GT3, 997 GT3 or maybe the 997.2RS? You have such strong and rigid opinions about the 991GT3 I can only assume, like most views on anything that have any worth at all, it's in comparison to something. I will if you will.
I've previously commented about my limited experience with earlier versions of GT3s at PEC Silverstone and the current version.HTH
jh001ace said:
and here's my main point - I really can't understand why anyone would choose a manual 7 speed over the pdk, if feels totally archaic to me, most modern race cars, to my knowledge, have semi-auto boxes so why do purists still want a manual? Surely if you want this type of car buy an old one without all the technology and enjoy.
I really don't understand why people insist on bringing out the 'race car' analogy. Race cars are meant to be fast. Full stop. There is no such requirement in a road car and what's good for a race car in being quick by no means has very little relevance to a road car.It is a fair point though that given the vast number of active electronic systems in a car like the 991 gt3, a manual box is neither here nor there and would change nothing of the fundamental nature of the car. Arguably I'd have a PDK/automated manual gearbox (or even decent very quick shifting torque converter whose behaviour someone seems oddly like the almighty pdk-s
) and a far less active car over a manual gearbox shoehorned into the current gt3.jh001ace said:
I think I must be one of the much maligned 'New Breed' GT3 owners, I've had my car since June 14 and never tracked it as frankly I'm too concerned about it getting damaged by either me or another track user. I'm not overly concerned by the mileage (currently just over 8,000) but I do wonder why so many cars are for sale on PH with ridiculously low miles. I use mine every day, to and from work, the shops etc. I'm not too concerned with residuals, I'm used to losing money on cars, I lost £30k on my Cayenne S diesel in 18 months.
Mine is comfort spec with PCCBs, lift, leather, carbon etc.(oh, and red stitching!!) which I'm very happy with as I'm not a track jockey but I do prefer the feel of the PCCBs and they do look rather cool - sad I know.
My car is currently at the OPC for warranty work (minute hand of the chrono clock fell off!!)and a campaign on the lift system, I've be loaned a 991 CS2 with a manual box and here's my main point - I really can't understand why anyone would choose a manual 7 speed over the pdk, if feels totally archaic to me, most modern race cars, to my knowledge, have semi-auto boxes so why do purists still want a manual? Surely if you want this type of car buy an old one without all the technology and enjoy.
The GT3 is my first 911, I've previously owned several R8's both manual and R Tronic (which was nowhere as good as the pdk) so do have previous experience of this type of car.
I know I'm going to get shot to pieces here but I just don't get it, perhaps this is why I'm a 'New Breed'!
I'm with you on this one - comfort seats, leather dash and steering column and illuminated door sills but I am lucky enough that I wanted a car for me that I could enjoy without backache, could enjoy music and set my coffee cup in the cupholder Mine is comfort spec with PCCBs, lift, leather, carbon etc.(oh, and red stitching!!) which I'm very happy with as I'm not a track jockey but I do prefer the feel of the PCCBs and they do look rather cool - sad I know.
My car is currently at the OPC for warranty work (minute hand of the chrono clock fell off!!)and a campaign on the lift system, I've be loaned a 991 CS2 with a manual box and here's my main point - I really can't understand why anyone would choose a manual 7 speed over the pdk, if feels totally archaic to me, most modern race cars, to my knowledge, have semi-auto boxes so why do purists still want a manual? Surely if you want this type of car buy an old one without all the technology and enjoy.
The GT3 is my first 911, I've previously owned several R8's both manual and R Tronic (which was nowhere as good as the pdk) so do have previous experience of this type of car.
I know I'm going to get shot to pieces here but I just don't get it, perhaps this is why I'm a 'New Breed'!
So I ticked most of the options and have never regretted the choice for one minute
I did pause when offered £157500 but decided no thanks
anonymous said:
[redacted]
That's an individual thing I suppose. Personally the overall 'feel' of the car isn't just defined by the manipulation of the clutch/manual box but rather that the car isn't doing a gazillion different things with the suspension/diff/rear brakes etc before I actually start to ask the car to react to any driving input. PorscheGT4 said:
what stupid people think is a manual ;-)
So presumably YOU consider the 458 to be a 'manuel' too on the basis it is certainly 'not dull' (as you say the GT3 is Edited by PorscheGT4 on Thursday 20th August 11:20
) your 'dream car' and has a very similar gearbox to the GT3.........Patent said:
sidicks said:
PorscheGT4 said:
does it have a clutch ?
2 clutches...Having raced both Porsche and Ferrari with all types of transmission manual , sequential and paddle , the later two are much easier in difficult times when car to car into corners or mid corner and paddle the best especially in 24 hour events , at night in the rain ...
Simply it is called progress
Simply it is called progress
hunter 66 said:
Having raced both Porsche and Ferrari with all types of transmission manual , sequential and paddle , the later two are much easier in difficult times when car to car into corners or mid corner and paddle the best especially in 24 hour events , at night in the rain ...
Simply it is called progress
You're right, it is progress. But progress does not equal an engaging car. How far does progress have to go for people to acknowledge this? What about a car that drives itself? No doubt it would piss all over any human intervention, but I suspect it would be as boring as hell. Simply it is called progress
Oso said:
You say you can't understand why folks choose manual over PDK - if that's a question, let me try to answer it.
I don't like the car deciding what gear I'm in. For example, if it changes gear mid-corner that can cause instability. Or if I'm on a slippery road I might want to keep it in third rather than have it decide to kick down to second when I get on the gas. OK I could put it in self-select mode and drive it like a clutch-less manual and address some of that (but not the kick-down issue BTW on the standard cars - GT3 might be different).
I've invested a lot of time in the skills required to drive a manual, heel-toe shifts, transitioning from left-foot braking to right-foot braking to change gear etc. Also in the roadcraft around planning what gear to be in. I enjoy using those skills. I want to be the one driving the car, not the computer, because that's part of the fun for me.
I have been loaned a number of PDK cars and they are an engineering marvel. The gearboxes are strong, smooth, quick, the launch control is a hoot. They are quicker. They let you carry more speed into corners for less effort as you can be more focused on braking and steering without having to change gear. They are easier to drive around town or in slow moving motorway traffic. I've always had fun in them but always been glad to hand them back. They are just missing something. It's hard to put a finger on it. I think because changing gear manually for me is part of the fun, in its absence I have to work harder at the other aspects of driving to get the same amount of fun out the car. Something from the experience seems missing and out of balance and that leaves me feeling strangely cold.
But that's just me.
BTW I think the 991 GT3 is epic, one of the most astonishing cars around. It's probably the easiest 911 ever built to use on the track. On the one hand, I really appreciate the engineering that has gone into making that possible. On the other hand, I don't want my track car to flatter my driving. I want something that's transparent and raw, that rewards me for understanding it and working with it and shows up my mistakes so I can improve. I'm interested in developing speed through smoothness and efficiency and not in going fast simply because the car itself is so capable. So it's not just about the PDK - it's all the other electronic trickery that goes with it that often causes issues to folks like me that prefer a manual.
BTW - I think it's great that you use your GT3 every day. Do try to get it on the circuit if you can - you'll love it. If you are nervous about something going wrong there are tracks you can use that are very quiet and have big run-offs and pro coaches who'll be glad to take you out and help you develop. You'll learn a lot about your car - and yourself
This is a really well written , balanced post - I have no idea why Sidicks gave you grief for it - just don't get it ?? Either way , I know exactly what you mean - I have a 997.2 RS and it's a hoot , I also had a 991 3 and I loved it - they are just different - I have to say though , if I could only choose one and the end use was for pure driving pleasure , it would have to be the manual - however , if I wanted the most engaging daily driver ever made , it would be the 3 I don't like the car deciding what gear I'm in. For example, if it changes gear mid-corner that can cause instability. Or if I'm on a slippery road I might want to keep it in third rather than have it decide to kick down to second when I get on the gas. OK I could put it in self-select mode and drive it like a clutch-less manual and address some of that (but not the kick-down issue BTW on the standard cars - GT3 might be different).
I've invested a lot of time in the skills required to drive a manual, heel-toe shifts, transitioning from left-foot braking to right-foot braking to change gear etc. Also in the roadcraft around planning what gear to be in. I enjoy using those skills. I want to be the one driving the car, not the computer, because that's part of the fun for me.
I have been loaned a number of PDK cars and they are an engineering marvel. The gearboxes are strong, smooth, quick, the launch control is a hoot. They are quicker. They let you carry more speed into corners for less effort as you can be more focused on braking and steering without having to change gear. They are easier to drive around town or in slow moving motorway traffic. I've always had fun in them but always been glad to hand them back. They are just missing something. It's hard to put a finger on it. I think because changing gear manually for me is part of the fun, in its absence I have to work harder at the other aspects of driving to get the same amount of fun out the car. Something from the experience seems missing and out of balance and that leaves me feeling strangely cold.
But that's just me.
BTW I think the 991 GT3 is epic, one of the most astonishing cars around. It's probably the easiest 911 ever built to use on the track. On the one hand, I really appreciate the engineering that has gone into making that possible. On the other hand, I don't want my track car to flatter my driving. I want something that's transparent and raw, that rewards me for understanding it and working with it and shows up my mistakes so I can improve. I'm interested in developing speed through smoothness and efficiency and not in going fast simply because the car itself is so capable. So it's not just about the PDK - it's all the other electronic trickery that goes with it that often causes issues to folks like me that prefer a manual.
BTW - I think it's great that you use your GT3 every day. Do try to get it on the circuit if you can - you'll love it. If you are nervous about something going wrong there are tracks you can use that are very quiet and have big run-offs and pro coaches who'll be glad to take you out and help you develop. You'll learn a lot about your car - and yourself
RSVP911 said:
This is a really well written , balanced post - I have no idea why Sidicks gave you grief for it - just don't get it ??
Gave him grief??
I only made 2 comments:
1) most of the criticisms he had about auto gearboxes weren't relevant to the 991 GT3
2) that criticism about 'electronic interference' are not unique to the 991 GT3 but could be targeted at the 997 GT3 too, something many other people often forget.
Which of those comments do you disagree with?
sidicks said:
Gave him grief??
I only made 2 comments:
1) most of the criticisms he had about auto gearboxes weren't relevant to the 991 GT3
2) that criticism about 'electronic interference' are not unique to the 991 GT3 but could be targeted at the 997 GT3 too, something many other people often forget.
Which of those comments do you disagree with?
Sidicks , I just thought that the post was a really nicely written , well balanced informative observation and it added to the thread. It would have given the OP an insight into why one person may prefer to drive a manual more analogue car - your response , as ever with the 3 , felt overly defensive and slightly aggressive IMHO . I am getting more and more tuned off by PH with every passing day , it seems to be full of people with overly blinkered views and agendas and so much of it is value obsessed . Before you say it , I know I don't need to look / participate and in truth , I am using it less and less - it's just such a shame as I used to really enjoy the content - I am not having a pop at you btw , it's just a general observation based mostly on a small group of people. I only made 2 comments:
1) most of the criticisms he had about auto gearboxes weren't relevant to the 991 GT3
2) that criticism about 'electronic interference' are not unique to the 991 GT3 but could be targeted at the 997 GT3 too, something many other people often forget.
Which of those comments do you disagree with?
Patent said:
Please answer me this - why on earth did you sell it then?
And - what are you using for a daily now thats better than that!?
Because I have a 991 RS due very soon - if this wasn't the case i'd still be piling the miles on my 3 - I loved that car it was awesome : simple as that . I am really enjoying the gap though , as I am getting to drive a piece of air cooled analogue loveliness - I hope that this is all ok with you as your post seemed to insinuate that I was a hypocrite for selling the 3 - or perhaps I'm being to sensitive - as I say PH isn't as much fun as it was !And - what are you using for a daily now thats better than that!?
Edited by RSVP911 on Thursday 20th August 22:43
sidicks said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
So you still believe that the 991 GT3 changes gear for you in manual mode and you don't believe that the 997 had any electronic aids.You're clearly deluded!
Is there the option to turn off the rear wheel steer and torque vectoring?
Why oh why do all GT3 posts seem to turn into a bun fight, the original post was not supposed to wind anyone up, I personally just don't see the logic of a technically advance car like the 991 GT3 with a manual box... Just my view.. Not saying I'm right.
Could a Typhoon be piloted by control lines or simple hydraulics?? No, it's just progress, if you want analogue control lines go jump in a Spitfire if you are lucky enough to own one.
Could a Typhoon be piloted by control lines or simple hydraulics?? No, it's just progress, if you want analogue control lines go jump in a Spitfire if you are lucky enough to own one.
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