Cayman GT4 Clubsport V 911 GT3 Cup Car

[London GT3]

Obviously dealing with race cars here, not road cars.

Firstly, would a GT4 Clubsport only be delivered by Reading or could it be ordered via OPC?

Regarding relative performance I think there are a number of people on here who have experience of racing 996 and 997 Cup Cars. How would they expect a GT4 Clubsport to compare to a Cup Car? I am ignoring a 991 Cup Car for the moment because they are much more expensive and I guess would be a performance step on from 996 and 997.

The Cup Cars are always said to be expensive to run because most components are "lifed". This seems to apply less to the GT4 which may make it a practical proposition for racing at sensible budget costs. With regard to lap times, I expect that long fast circuits would favour the 911 Cup Car but tighter circuits may favour the GT4 with its mid engine balance and PDK gearbox.

If I were to gather the funds to race one it would probably be in a series with List 1A or 1B tyres (such as CSCC New Millennium) so the Cup Car may be less suited to treaded tyres.

Any thoughts welcome, especially from those with experience racing Cup Cars. Steve R etc????

[NAS90]

I was going through a very similar thought process this week, the new GT4 car looks like a great package for racing.

In terms of speed i would be pretty confident that it'll be slower than than a 997 Cup car. There was a way of getting 997 Cup cars homologated to GT4 and it meant winding them back a bit in terms of aero and a few other backwards changes so I'd expect a standard Cup car to be quicker than the GT4 performance levels to which the Cayman GT4 is to be homologated. Over a 5kms circuit a standard 996 Cup car is a few seconds a lap slower than the 997 so I would expect similar performance to the GT4. All just my opinion, not backed up by any facts or figures.

In terms of cost the new Cayman GT4 should be miles cheaper than a Cup car to run. I have raced 996 Cup and a 997 RS and they are far from cheap to run over a season, the new GT4 gearbox and engine should have longer between rebuilds than the Cup engine and sequential box of the 997.

[bigmowley]

Cars are from Reading only. If you have not received your allocation already then you haven't got one. Very limited numbers.
Delivery early Feb for 2016 season.

[London GT3]

bigmowley said:

Cars are from Reading only. If you have not received your allocation already then you haven't got one. Very limited numbers.
Delivery early Feb for 2016 season.

I hadn't realised they would be that limited in number although your post makes me realise why they might only be produced for the 2016 racing season. My racing is sorted for 2016 so I was looking more to late 16 and then a full 2017 season.

I might just call Reading to see if there is any chance but it sounds like I might have missed this one!

[London GT3]

NAS90 said:

I was going through a very similar thought process this week, the new GT4 car looks like a great package for racing.

In terms of speed i would be pretty confident that it'll be slower than than a 997 Cup car. There was a way of getting 997 Cup cars homologated to GT4 and it meant winding them back a bit in terms of aero and a few other backwards changes so I'd expect a standard Cup car to be quicker than the GT4 performance levels to which the Cayman GT4 is to be homologated. Over a 5kms circuit a standard 996 Cup car is a few seconds a lap slower than the 997 so I would expect similar performance to the GT4. All just my opinion, not backed up by any facts or figures.

In terms of cost the new Cayman GT4 should be miles cheaper than a Cup car to run. I have raced 996 Cup and a 997 RS and they are far from cheap to run over a season, the new GT4 gearbox and engine should have longer between rebuilds than the Cup engine and sequential box of the 997.

Thank you. Very helpful comments from someone with experience of 996 and 997 race cars.

[ChrisW.]

bigmowley said:

Cars are from Reading only. If you have not received your allocation already then you haven't got one. Very limited numbers.
Delivery early Feb for 2016 season.

Has anybody got an allocation yet ?

[Geneve]

Presumably most will have been bought by race teams, to be run on behalf of paying customers?

[Steve Rance]

In terms of performance, the 996 cup is about a second slower than the 997 on most circuits, maybe a second and a half on a long one like spa or brands GP. The 991 isn't quicker than the 997. These cars are pretty bulletproof being purpose built race cars with proper racing engines - the Metz has an incredibly strong bottom end. The lifing is a bit of a red herring as the hardware on these cars is very very tough. The downside of running a 997 is the gearbox. It's a Hollinger unit and alrhough less expensive to run using hollinger rather than Porsche internals, is still an expensive unit to maintain. There is a mechanical paddle system that can be fitted for about £5k which - I understand- helps reduce running costs. Obviously, this depends on the regs of the series that you run in. Remember that theses cars are designed to be run on slicks so performance will be somewhat emasculated on groved tyres but they will still be a very quick car.

In contrast the GT4 will be much more of a road car with some upgrades. With this in mind I'd be very worried about the performance of much of the hardware - especially engine - as it will be spending the majority of its life working at the very edge of its performance window in terms of load stresses. Being a race car I would be amazed if the hardware was not lifed in the same way as the cups.

Although Porsche are very good at building racing cars, they ( by their nature) are prone to problems at the early stages of their racing carriers. I remember the cup S having several problems after it was first launched. If It were my choice, I'd stick to racing something proven and wait on a little - at least a season - before considering a GT4. The ideal choice in terms of budget may well be a decent 996 cup.

[hunter 66]

As I have said on numerous occasions This is the customer direction for Porsche Motorsport to go GT4 class and now there are possibly no or very few customer cars racing in GT3 anymore .
Crazy rush for anything with GT title from Porsche .............. financially driven
The Aston GT4 is still maybe a better package ....
Agree costs for GT4 are better and more realistic for Gentleman/ am racing ..
NIce looking car though .......

[Phooey]

Not watched this myself yet but might be some info in here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-Po7wS6zoE

and here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=436&am...

[ChrisW.]

Interesting, Matthias says no GT4RS ....

And to be fair, if the GT4 runs to June, how far away will the facelift Cayman then be with the facelift Boxster being expected in the Spring of 2016 ??

[Steve Rance]

If Porsche are serious about competing in GT4 there will almost certainly be homologation requirements as the performance of the car is improved. I think that an RS version is very possible

[bigmowley]

In terms of reliability clubsport should be OK. The PDK box has been extensively raced in the USA and is a reliable unit, in the case of any issues its a complete new unit off the shelf at about €15K. Half the price of a full sequential box. The engine should be fine, no chance of over revs due to the box and the peak power is low down the rev range. As long as any oil surge is sorted then it should be fine and dandy. These cars have been running around in testing for over 12 months so plenty of time to iron out any slicks related issues.
Much more interesting will be the electronics. I have not seen the definitive spec yet, and not sure who to believe. The most likely is a bdized version of the standard car which always leads to issues IMO. Especially the relationship between the EMS, the PDK controller and the traction control, ABS, etc. I would prefer a fully bespoke race system but that is unlikely at this price point. Apart from that the rest of the car is proven hardware.
The Aston has more grunt and a big headstart in development terms but Porsche Motorsport are no mugs either.
The clubsport has a claimed cd of 0.32 which sounds quite low, be interested in what is claimed for an Aston GT4 car?

[ChrisW.]

Steve Rance said:

If Porsche are serious about competing in GT4 there will almost certainly be homologation requirements as the performance of the car is improved. I think that an RS version is very possible

Thanks Steve. Interesting, but what would that make the Clubsport ?

If the RS homologates something really exciting, then the Clubsport becomes a half way house --- which I guess every car is.

I do worry a little about the integrated Dry Sump system --- Coram at Snetterton really did for my Gen I Cayman race engine --- even with deep sump etc etc!

But all the bits that fail were designed out of the Gen2 engines and there is no excuse for over-revving the GT4 3.8 engine ... particularly not with PDK. It's just that having seen recent oil starvation test videos on this engine, nothing yet comes close to the endless high G bend ...

[Adam B]

Steve Rance said:

These cars are pretty bulletproof being purpose built race cars with proper racing engines - the Metz has an incredibly strong bottom end.

dear god not you too

[Steve Rance]

ChrisW. said:

Thanks Steve. Interesting, but what would that make the Clubsport ?

If the RS homologates something really exciting, then the Clubsport becomes a half way house --- which I guess every car is.

I do worry a little about the integrated Dry Sump system --- Coram at Snetterton really did for my Gen I Cayman race engine --- even with deep sump etc etc!

But all the bits that fail were designed out of the Gen2 engines and there is no excuse for over-revving the GT4 3.8 engine ... particularly not with PDK. It's just that having seen recent oil starvation test videos on this engine, nothing yet comes close to the endless high G bend ...

Hi Chris

The next version of the Clubsport will get the upgrades. Im not sure if this car is aimed directly at FIA GT4 specifically, or other general club racing in lower catagories. If there is a genuine intention for the car to compete in the FIA GT4 catagory, there will almost certainly be ongoing upgrades which may well require homologation. In terms of the gear box. If I chose a downshift that will over rev the engine, I expect it to happen. I will not expect the gearbox software to over ride the shift. Race engines are regularly buzzed in the heat of racing. I used the box to lock the wheels of a 996 cup at Castle Coombe once during qualy to prevent a big shunt. The Motec showed a buz of well over 10,000rpm but the engine was fine (my point on the Metz engine Adam). Just needed a new clutch and we were out for the race. 100 hours later the engine was still winning races. If my gearbox would have prevented the downshift, I may well may not be here now.

Edited to add; I'm still unclear if the car has a full dry sump system - are you any clearer on this?

[Magic919]

Mezger engine.

Castle Combe.

[Akajak]

Steve Rance said:

If Porsche are serious about competing in GT4 there will almost certainly be homologation requirements as the performance of the car is improved. I think that an RS version is very possible

I was told that there is a clear expectation of a PDK GT4 road car

[lanan]

The car is due to be homolgated, not sure if that is for FIA acceptance.
But the car is good for British GT, GT4 European Series, VLN etc.

With regard to PDK.
I am pleased that this comes with the Clubsport. I'm sure it will save a fortune in clumsy downshifts and therefore the reliability that this will bring.

Can't wait 'till February

[bigmowley]

Steve Rance said:

In terms of the gear box. If I chose a downshift that will over rev the engine, I expect it to happen. I will not expect the gearbox software to over ride the shift. Race engines are regularly buzzed in the heat of racing. I used the box to lock the wheels of a 996 cup at Castle Coombe once during qualy to prevent a big shunt.

In my experience everything that has a fully electronic gearshift system will protect the engine from an over rev condition from F1 downwards through all the junior formula cars to LMP3 cars. Presumably the 996Cup car had a mechanical system fitted? Weather you want it or not a GT4 Clubsport will not change down and over-rev the engine.

Still worried about the road car electronics though!