Porsche successfully sued over allowing queue jumping
Discussion
POORCARDEALER said:
Repost of my comment on the other thread;
Whats interesting here is I wonder if the gentleman would have still wanted the car had it not been worth more than the list price, and if the car was worth list or less and he had sued, what would he have been awarded?
Speculators often put down deposits and then ask for them back if the cars not going to do "overs".
Pendragon a hideous arrogant company so the results made me smile.
There would have been no financial loss and therefore no award.Whats interesting here is I wonder if the gentleman would have still wanted the car had it not been worth more than the list price, and if the car was worth list or less and he had sued, what would he have been awarded?
Speculators often put down deposits and then ask for them back if the cars not going to do "overs".
Pendragon a hideous arrogant company so the results made me smile.
Mario149 said:
Slightly off topic, but the other thing to watch out for is that even once you've paid the non-refundable deposit on your new Porsche, the T&Cs (which you will have signed) do not guarantee you the price on your initial order form. I almost ended up paying £1k more than the price on my initial order because the lead time on my BGTS was so long and they bumped prices a couple of months before delivery.
In theory you can reject the car and get all your money back if the price has gone up, but in reality who will do that after waiting 6+ months for their shiny new P&J?
The deposit IS refundable up until the 'freeze' or lockdown date, after which time the OPC would be perfectly entitled to keep your deposit, and rightly so. Whether they do is clearly dependent upon the car and spec......a cancelled barbie pink bizarrely specced base 'old model' Cayman would most likely result in lost deposit compared to a GT car where the deposit could well be respectfully returned and the car maybe sold to the next in the queue or even registered to the dealer to sell on at a profit.In theory you can reject the car and get all your money back if the price has gone up, but in reality who will do that after waiting 6+ months for their shiny new P&J?
This is of course clearly stated in the standard terms and conditions of sale that everyone signs upon placing their order.......as is the option that Porsche can increase the price of the vehicle at anytime, although there have been instances where the OPC has carried the increased cost of the car following the customers refusal to pay it.
mollytherocker said:
POORCARDEALER said:
Repost of my comment on the other thread;
Whats interesting here is I wonder if the gentleman would have still wanted the car had it not been worth more than the list price, and if the car was worth list or less and he had sued, what would he have been awarded?
Speculators often put down deposits and then ask for them back if the cars not going to do "overs".
Pendragon a hideous arrogant company so the results made me smile.
There would have been no financial loss and therefore no award.Whats interesting here is I wonder if the gentleman would have still wanted the car had it not been worth more than the list price, and if the car was worth list or less and he had sued, what would he have been awarded?
Speculators often put down deposits and then ask for them back if the cars not going to do "overs".
Pendragon a hideous arrogant company so the results made me smile.
Could grow arms and legs this for Porsche UK and be even more of a media disaster. Interesting its referred to as a landmark case on Rennlist.
http://rennlist.com/articles/dealer-gives-porsche-...
http://rennlist.com/articles/dealer-gives-porsche-...
av185 said:
Mario149 said:
Slightly off topic, but the other thing to watch out for is that even once you've paid the non-refundable deposit on your new Porsche, the T&Cs (which you will have signed) do not guarantee you the price on your initial order form. I almost ended up paying £1k more than the price on my initial order because the lead time on my BGTS was so long and they bumped prices a couple of months before delivery.
In theory you can reject the car and get all your money back if the price has gone up, but in reality who will do that after waiting 6+ months for their shiny new P&J?
The deposit IS refundable up until the 'freeze' or lockdown date, after which time the OPC would be perfectly entitled to keep your deposit, and rightly so. Whether they do is clearly dependent upon the car and spec......a cancelled barbie pink bizarrely specced base 'old model' Cayman would most likely result in lost deposit compared to a GT car where the deposit could well be respectfully returned and the car maybe sold to the next in the queue or even registered to the dealer to sell on at a profit.In theory you can reject the car and get all your money back if the price has gone up, but in reality who will do that after waiting 6+ months for their shiny new P&J?
This is of course clearly stated in the standard terms and conditions of sale that everyone signs upon placing their order.......as is the option that Porsche can increase the price of the vehicle at anytime, although there have been instances where the OPC has carried the increased cost of the car following the customers refusal to pay it.
Anyway, after some animated emails with the OPC we came to a deal that all parties were happy with and I didn't end up paying the extra money.
Mario149 said:
av185 said:
Mario149 said:
Slightly off topic, but the other thing to watch out for is that even once you've paid the non-refundable deposit on your new Porsche, the T&Cs (which you will have signed) do not guarantee you the price on your initial order form. I almost ended up paying £1k more than the price on my initial order because the lead time on my BGTS was so long and they bumped prices a couple of months before delivery.
In theory you can reject the car and get all your money back if the price has gone up, but in reality who will do that after waiting 6+ months for their shiny new P&J?
The deposit IS refundable up until the 'freeze' or lockdown date, after which time the OPC would be perfectly entitled to keep your deposit, and rightly so. Whether they do is clearly dependent upon the car and spec......a cancelled barbie pink bizarrely specced base 'old model' Cayman would most likely result in lost deposit compared to a GT car where the deposit could well be respectfully returned and the car maybe sold to the next in the queue or even registered to the dealer to sell on at a profit.In theory you can reject the car and get all your money back if the price has gone up, but in reality who will do that after waiting 6+ months for their shiny new P&J?
This is of course clearly stated in the standard terms and conditions of sale that everyone signs upon placing their order.......as is the option that Porsche can increase the price of the vehicle at anytime, although there have been instances where the OPC has carried the increased cost of the car following the customers refusal to pay it.
Anyway, after some animated emails with the OPC we came to a deal that all parties were happy with and I didn't end up paying the extra money.
For clarity, the clause ref price increases:
The thing that the OPC messed up on with my order was that they had not given me written notice of the price increase. If they had, I would have had 14 days to reject the order or accept the increase. So as a clarification to my previous point, you only have a specific amount of time to reject the car if the price increases.
In my case I pressed the point that they had not fulfilled their contractual obligation as sending me an increased bill a week before collection did not constitute written notice.
Moral of the story: if they don't send you written notice, don't pay the increase in price.
The thing that the OPC messed up on with my order was that they had not given me written notice of the price increase. If they had, I would have had 14 days to reject the order or accept the increase. So as a clarification to my previous point, you only have a specific amount of time to reject the car if the price increases.
In my case I pressed the point that they had not fulfilled their contractual obligation as sending me an increased bill a week before collection did not constitute written notice.
Moral of the story: if they don't send you written notice, don't pay the increase in price.
chrisABP said:
A customer of mine was telling me just yesterday about his last straw with Porsche and why he will never buy another....
He previously bought a new Boxster and then had a brand new 997 when it was launched. When the first Cayman R came out he gave a LOI to his dealer along with a deposit for a Cayman GT'3' variant if ever one were to be made in the future. The dealer accepted his LOI and deposit and time passed....
Spring forward 4 years to the announcement of the GT4 and our customer was understandably very excited being in so early. When all the images and prices etc went out he called the OPC (his sales contact from 4 years previous was well gone by now) asking when he could expect delivery etc only to be told that he didn't have a slot secured as Porsche weren't making a GT'3' Cayman and therefore his deposit would be refunded as all of their GT'4' allocations were gone! UNBELIEVABLE!
After much ranting and complaining he has vowed NEVER to buy another Porsche again.
I'm not sure if your customer has a right to be annoyed about that to be honest - if I put down deposits and LOIs for the next 3 GT3 RS', or "the 918 replacement", should I definitely get one over someone else who has been buying Porsches for the last 15 years? I quite like the 'prize draw' approach to be honest although I'm sure holes could be picked in it.He previously bought a new Boxster and then had a brand new 997 when it was launched. When the first Cayman R came out he gave a LOI to his dealer along with a deposit for a Cayman GT'3' variant if ever one were to be made in the future. The dealer accepted his LOI and deposit and time passed....
Spring forward 4 years to the announcement of the GT4 and our customer was understandably very excited being in so early. When all the images and prices etc went out he called the OPC (his sales contact from 4 years previous was well gone by now) asking when he could expect delivery etc only to be told that he didn't have a slot secured as Porsche weren't making a GT'3' Cayman and therefore his deposit would be refunded as all of their GT'4' allocations were gone! UNBELIEVABLE!
After much ranting and complaining he has vowed NEVER to buy another Porsche again.
I spoke to Porsche GB when my GT4 deposit was returned recently, I had a committed order and it was confirmed, so a solid one.I will be interested when the dealer pops up with a "new cancelled order" at a premium. The whole thing stinks and in my opinion,it is a terrible plan from a brand perspective it is a terrible plan. There are other manufacturers available. Porsche GB did not seem to care to be honest. they said sorry a lot but it was just words.
pete.g said:
LordOfTheManor said:
Sent this post to my legal guy, he's immediately rang! think's we should file !!
look out opc the little people are fighting back !!
Now there's a shock; lawyer wants client to litigate; the phone call you've just received is probably billed on an invoice already.look out opc the little people are fighting back !!
detee said:
I spoke to Porsche GB when my GT4 deposit was returned recently, I had a committed order and it was confirmed, so a solid one.I will be interested when the dealer pops up with a "new cancelled order" at a premium. The whole thing stinks and in my opinion,it is a terrible plan from a brand perspective it is a terrible plan. There are other manufacturers available. Porsche GB did not seem to care to be honest. they said sorry a lot but it was just words.
1. OPCs can't sell new cars above list2. I thought the paperwork you signed when submitting a LOI or similar already has appropriate get out clauses for Porsche? The big difference in this case is the email confirmation, guaranteeing the first car etc.
I don't think they will need to amend their legal agreements and I don't think this will change the allocation process (nor should it). Porsche might remind their salesman to be much more careful about how they communicate to customers though!
sidicks said:
detee said:
I spoke to Porsche GB when my GT4 deposit was returned recently, I had a committed order and it was confirmed, so a solid one.I will be interested when the dealer pops up with a "new cancelled order" at a premium. The whole thing stinks and in my opinion,it is a terrible plan from a brand perspective it is a terrible plan. There are other manufacturers available. Porsche GB did not seem to care to be honest. they said sorry a lot but it was just words.
1. OPCs can't sell new cars above list2. I thought the paperwork you signed when submitting a LOI or similar already has appropriate get out clauses for Porsche? The big difference in this case is the email confirmation, guaranteeing the first car etc.
I don't think they will need to amend their legal agreements and I don't think this will change the allocation process (nor should it). Porsche might remind their salesman to be much more careful about how they communicate to customers though!
The fact that the salesjockey EMAILED the promise through to the customer created a collateral contract.
As I said below my analysis is that in the absence of such a confirmation the result might be very different.
Carl_Manchester said:
the simplest answer is to just build more cars, it's not rocket science. all this flipping of cars and stupid premiums is a nonsense.
Finite capacity at Stuttgart, and at Leipzig I suppose a Cayenne/SUV yields better profit. And low numbers make it more worthwhile/valuable to own and keep residuals solid for all previous models too.
you sound like opc salesman Sam with those lines neither of them work for me or many others here.
the damage it has caused this time to the relationship between Porsche and its customer base means something has to give. If Porsche want to continue in their PR bubble as if the situation is normal then they are mistaken.
they read these boards and honestly it's now become a place where value of the cars and who can get one trumps the reports of the fun being had driving them.
too many cars are not ending up in the hands of the right sorts of owners and too many people left empty handed this time around.
the damage it has caused this time to the relationship between Porsche and its customer base means something has to give. If Porsche want to continue in their PR bubble as if the situation is normal then they are mistaken.
they read these boards and honestly it's now become a place where value of the cars and who can get one trumps the reports of the fun being had driving them.
too many cars are not ending up in the hands of the right sorts of owners and too many people left empty handed this time around.
I was talking about this to a fellow PHer who got similarly stiffed on a GT4, only this morning. My view is that Porsche will not allow this to continue. Two reasons:
1. Dealers behaving like a bunch of cowboys and salesmen squabbling over which of their mates gets the cars / has the fattest brown envelope does the brand rep no good at all.
2. If anyone is going to make an obscene profit on the sale of cars, Porsche wants it to be them.
Carl_Manchester said:
you sound like opc salesman Sam with those lines neither of them work for me or many others here.
the damage it has caused this time to the relationship between Porsche and its customer base means something has to give. If Porsche want to continue in their PR bubble as if the situation is normal then they are mistaken.
they read these boards and honestly it's now become a place where value of the cars and who can get one trumps the reports of the fun being had driving them.
too many cars are not ending up in the hands of the right sorts of owners and too many people left empty handed this time around.
Ha hathe damage it has caused this time to the relationship between Porsche and its customer base means something has to give. If Porsche want to continue in their PR bubble as if the situation is normal then they are mistaken.
they read these boards and honestly it's now become a place where value of the cars and who can get one trumps the reports of the fun being had driving them.
too many cars are not ending up in the hands of the right sorts of owners and too many people left empty handed this time around.
As far as i know Porsche have typically sold about 225 units of each of their earlier versions. About 300 of the 991 GT3, and many were sold as prices of these cars had started rising.
Only a 100 or so of the 6RS and they could sell them all initially.
I expect 991RS numbers will be similar to the 7.1 and 7.2 RS.
My comments were only about numbers/constraints.
The allocation of cars is a different issue, and I do agree 918 owners perhaps should not have a god given right to the RS's, GT4's unless there was some other justification.
But Purveyors of all luxury goods are a law unto themselves.
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