991 GT3 Prices
Discussion
Skittles001 said:
Perhaps. But surely we with our knowledge of 911s can see it's not as generic as "a disguised 911". The exhaust locations are unique to the GT cars (and possibly R).
My point is it could be an 'R', a GT3 or something else. The new Gen 2 cars have central exhausts, although admittedly not quite the same as the car in the pics.Skittles001 said:
The aparent lack of air scoops/intakes indicate it is not a Gen 2 turbo engine but rather a n/a engine.
??Does the 991.2 Carerra S (turbo) have scoops / intakes?
Skittkes001 said:
It is very possible it's an R test mule though.
Agreed, that's my point.sidicks said:
Does the 991.2 Carerra S (turbo) have scoops / intakes?
Hi yes it does: deck lid and bottom of bumper neither of which are on the "test mule". And for a performance version of the engine it would reasonably have more obvious intakes. I take your point that it's all speculation but as someone has stated here there is a less disguised R mule doing the rounds so hopefully these pictures raise the possibility that there could be some more great cars coming from Porsche.
To be fair I dont think lack of air scoops or the appearance of them is at this stage anything to deduce.We all saw the massive air scoops on the side of the RS on the test mule and a few assumed that meant the 991 RS was going turbo which was incorrect - but these newer spy shots to me are the clearest signal yet that there will be a Gen2 GT3.
Love the look of your 458 by the way Skittles..stunning car - could you be tempted away to a 991 Gt3 whether gen 1 or 2? - see that you have had a 997 before.
Love the look of your 458 by the way Skittles..stunning car - could you be tempted away to a 991 Gt3 whether gen 1 or 2? - see that you have had a 997 before.
berty37 said:
To be fair I dont think lack of air scoops or the appearance of them is at this stage anything to deduce.We all saw the massive air scoops on the side of the RS on the test mule and a few assumed that meant the 991 RS was going turbo which was incorrect - but these newer spy shots to me are the clearest signal yet that there will be a Gen2 GT3.
Love the look of your 458 by the way Skittles..stunning car - could you be tempted away to a 991 Gt3 whether gen 1 or 2? - see that you have had a 997 before.
Thanks mate :-)Love the look of your 458 by the way Skittles..stunning car - could you be tempted away to a 991 Gt3 whether gen 1 or 2? - see that you have had a 997 before.
Yes definitely I could (and probably will at some point) go back to a 991 GT3; I'm a huge fan of all Gt3 variants. I used to think I couldn't live with PDK after having had a manual Gt3 and RS but since having had a dual clutch box on the 458 I think they suit high revving engines well!
Great minds and all that: I have LOIs on a gen 2 RS and Gt3 plus a R. Hoping one of those come to fruition. Although the dealer did tell me they will "allocate" based on how much I've "spent" with that dealer and it's not too late to "buy other cars" from them in the meantime to secure an actual slot. A bit brash but at least they are truthful which I appreciate.
960Spyder said:
What else could it be, realistically?
A few possibilities, the 911 R being the most obvious.960Spyder said:
991.2 GT3 is NA according to August Achtleiner (911 Product Director PAG) as well as AP. I believe what they said.
That may indeed turn out to be true, however I suggest that claiming that someone else is wrong purely on the basis of an ambiguous spyshot is somewhat premature...I read that the guys behind the Turbo joked that they'll need to work a bit harder on the Gen 2 GT3 (in light of the Turbo's impressive lap times).
However, everything running up to this has suggested (by Mr P himself) that it will simply be a facelift with no mechanical changes - so let's see! But the obvious change will be the new style lights and interior. The Gen 1 GT3 just missed out on the 918 steering wheel, which i was always a little disappointed with.
The pricing is somewhat irrelevant, becuase everyone with a Gen 1 GT3 will most likely get first dibs to PX their cars. This will allow Porsche to therefore control the second hand market as they will hold the most stock, which they're very good at. Once that is settled, the Jonny Come Latelys will not be getting a new GT3 for list, let's face it!
However, everything running up to this has suggested (by Mr P himself) that it will simply be a facelift with no mechanical changes - so let's see! But the obvious change will be the new style lights and interior. The Gen 1 GT3 just missed out on the 918 steering wheel, which i was always a little disappointed with.
The pricing is somewhat irrelevant, becuase everyone with a Gen 1 GT3 will most likely get first dibs to PX their cars. This will allow Porsche to therefore control the second hand market as they will hold the most stock, which they're very good at. Once that is settled, the Jonny Come Latelys will not be getting a new GT3 for list, let's face it!
Given that tha latest Turbo is now almost certainly quicker than a GT3 at most circuits and definitely quicker at the ring I think Porsche will really be starting to test the proposition that enthusiasts want involvement not speed with this version of the GT3.
The n/a engine must be at the limits of development at 500 bhp and it won't be long before the standard 911 3ltr turbos are quicker on track due to tech and that will really test the market! Do many people want to be pedalling their heart out in a GT3 only to see a novice in a C4s roar past making a mockery of their hard won car control skills?
Not many halo cars are amongst the slower in the range. I'm sure they will sell and remain important to Porsche but I wonder if they will continue to be the most coveted car in the range as time and tech moves on?
The n/a engine must be at the limits of development at 500 bhp and it won't be long before the standard 911 3ltr turbos are quicker on track due to tech and that will really test the market! Do many people want to be pedalling their heart out in a GT3 only to see a novice in a C4s roar past making a mockery of their hard won car control skills?
Not many halo cars are amongst the slower in the range. I'm sure they will sell and remain important to Porsche but I wonder if they will continue to be the most coveted car in the range as time and tech moves on?
Indeed. I had a bit of rant here in another thread that people kept implying the Turbo was a GT3 crusher because of its lap times. I thought all we cared about as die hard enthusiasts was the purity of the experience...
We are a fickle bunch, here at Pistonheads. All those people who said the Toyota GT86 was the perfect antidote to point-and-squirt, turbocharged FWD hot hatches because, y'know, we don't really care about horsepower, carpark status and the like; we just want cars to be like how they were in the good ol' days! How many have actually bought one i wonder? I've probaby seen a handful at most.
It's why manufacturers need to take our opinion with a pinch of salt. Porsche were right to bow to the majority who really couldn't give a toss if the 911 was turbocharged, and although i'll personally be disappointed, the next new 911 GT3 (i.e. not the facelift one we are discussing) will likely have to follow suit.
To get back on topic, i imagine they could help laptimes by simply putting the 918 / GT3 RS tyres (softer compound) on the GT3, throw in the 4.0l and apply the same weight saving techniques they used for the RS. They are simply things off the shelf so very easy for Porsche to do, surely.
We are a fickle bunch, here at Pistonheads. All those people who said the Toyota GT86 was the perfect antidote to point-and-squirt, turbocharged FWD hot hatches because, y'know, we don't really care about horsepower, carpark status and the like; we just want cars to be like how they were in the good ol' days! How many have actually bought one i wonder? I've probaby seen a handful at most.
It's why manufacturers need to take our opinion with a pinch of salt. Porsche were right to bow to the majority who really couldn't give a toss if the 911 was turbocharged, and although i'll personally be disappointed, the next new 911 GT3 (i.e. not the facelift one we are discussing) will likely have to follow suit.
To get back on topic, i imagine they could help laptimes by simply putting the 918 / GT3 RS tyres (softer compound) on the GT3, throw in the 4.0l and apply the same weight saving techniques they used for the RS. They are simply things off the shelf so very easy for Porsche to do, surely.
You make some very good points there W12. My own opinion is while Porsche think the demand is there (which it clearly is) they will build them. As Preuninger himself stated to Jethro on the GT4 when he said what was the reason for the gearbox being in manual only his reply simply was 'we think we know our GT customers quite well and there was clearly a demand from them that didnt care about that last tenth or two tenths in gear change'. For some, turbos regardless of torque and how fast they are, will never feel the same as an NA engine and Porsche are well aware of that - I would argue the turbos in some cases forgetting the GT2 variants have been faster than the GT3 anyway but the overall feeling, directness of steering and chassis on the GT3 will always be what they strive for.
Putting the VW group as a whole aside for one moment, please do correct me if I'm wrong anyone but all Cayennes are now turbo all Panameras (except the S?) all Macans and now the boxster and Cayman will be for cooking models - so their emissions and efficiency as a Marques are pretty decent in comparison - so Porsche producing a couple of thousand NA cars is of no real issue at all and do remember GT cars also turn a nice profit they are not a loss making excercise.
Sidicks...can I ask genuinely, what evidence is there to suggest a Gen2 NA GT3 wont be built? To be fair to 960 spyder he listed quite a few reasons why one person who claimed to be in the know has been wrong - and he has by a decent margin. The same person said to a friend of mine there would be a GT4 RS as he had photos of it testing but was not allowed to send them to him...and literally 2 weeks later Preuninger himself said I think RS is too mnay letters for the back of a GT4.
Putting the VW group as a whole aside for one moment, please do correct me if I'm wrong anyone but all Cayennes are now turbo all Panameras (except the S?) all Macans and now the boxster and Cayman will be for cooking models - so their emissions and efficiency as a Marques are pretty decent in comparison - so Porsche producing a couple of thousand NA cars is of no real issue at all and do remember GT cars also turn a nice profit they are not a loss making excercise.
Sidicks...can I ask genuinely, what evidence is there to suggest a Gen2 NA GT3 wont be built? To be fair to 960 spyder he listed quite a few reasons why one person who claimed to be in the know has been wrong - and he has by a decent margin. The same person said to a friend of mine there would be a GT4 RS as he had photos of it testing but was not allowed to send them to him...and literally 2 weeks later Preuninger himself said I think RS is too mnay letters for the back of a GT4.
hondansx said:
To get back on topic, i imagine they could help laptimes by simply putting the 918 / GT3 RS tyres (softer compound) on the GT3, throw in the 4.0l and apply the same weight saving techniques they used for the RS. They are simply things off the shelf so very easy for Porsche to do, surely.
There's a good logic there, but I'm sure Porsche wouldn't want to upset the current RS buyers by making a 991.2 GT3 that was comparable to it.It remains to be seen what will be of the 991.2GT3, but Porsche being Porsche will certainly have a way of doing it up their sleeves, I'm sure
berty37 said:
... so Porsche producing a couple of thousand NA cars is of no real issue at all and do remember GT cars also turn a nice profit they are not a loss making excercise.
Really ? Is there any evidence for this? I would have thought that the bespoke development costs and relatively small sales volumes combined with only marginally higher pricing would make this somewhat unlikely. The justification for these cars being the halo effect on other models, not their profitability in isolation.berty37 said:
Sidicks...can I ask genuinely, what evidence is there to suggest a Gen2 NA GT3 wont be built?
I'm not saying there won't be. But clearly the issues and delays with the Gen 1 car and the RS have significantly impacted production cycles and it's not clear whether there is much scope to improve the car - the usual extra 10hp or so - as well as the updated bodywork features of the Gen 2 range.berty37 said:
To be fair to 960 spyder he listed quite a few reasons why one person who claimed to be in the know has been wrong - and he has by a decent margin.
Some of what was claimed was prior to the engine fiasco(s) and might well have been true when they were originally stated.berty37 said:
The same person said to a friend of mine there would be a GT4 RS as he had photos of it testing but was not allowed to send them to him...and literally 2 weeks later Preuninger himself said I think RS is too mnay letters for the back of a GT4.
The point is that the availability (and detail) of the GT3.2 will be confirmed if and when Porsche make an announcement, not when someone posts a spyshot of an undisclosed camouflaged mule...!!sidicks said:
berty37 said:
... so Porsche producing a couple of thousand NA cars is of no real issue at all and do remember GT cars also turn a nice profit they are not a loss making excercise.
Sidicks saidReally ? Is there any evidence for this? I would have thought that the bespoke development costs and relatively small sales volumes combined with only marginally higher pricing would make this somewhat unlikely. The justification for these cars being the halo effect on other models, not their profitability in isolation.
Have a read of this if you get a chance....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markewing/2015/11/07/p...
'Racing success made Porsche great, but now SUVs generate profit that keeps the company stable year-on-year. Hence, Preuninger’s extremist GT and RS cars constitute a deposit in the brand equity bank equal to the Porsche 919 Hybrid racecar’s victory at Le Mans this past summer. Surprisingly, they’re not a management indulgence, loss leader, or cynical effort to sell 2500 warmed-over cars. Preuninger’s cars earn profit per unit sold, ensuring long-term survival of the GT model line.
To avoid the costly modifications required for performance cars built as an after-thought, Preuninger’s group provides input to the design and packaging of the 911 and Cayman in the concept stage, a fact that will turn engineers at lesser car companies green with envy. It’s not a Lego system—little in the high-performance car industry is—but Preuninger can build his narrow-focus rockets without resorting to a messy chop-shop operation like most manufacturers have tolerated for decades when creating rally and racecars based on production vehicles. This input at early stages is another sign that Porsche is committed to maintaining this effort.
Not sure that will convince you still but looks decent enough 'evidence' to me.
berty37 said:
Have a read of this if you get a chance....
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markewing/2015/11/07/p...
Interesting, thanks.http://www.forbes.com/sites/markewing/2015/11/07/p...
berty37 said:
'Racing success made Porsche great, but now SUVs generate profit that keeps the company stable year-on-year. Hence, Preuninger’s extremist GT and RS cars constitute a deposit in the brand equity bank equal to the Porsche 919 Hybrid racecar’s victory at Le Mans this past summer. Surprisingly, they’re not a management indulgence, loss leader, or cynical effort to sell 2500 warmed-over cars. Preuninger’s cars earn profit per unit sold, ensuring long-term survival of the GT model line.
To avoid the costly modifications required for performance cars built as an after-thought, Preuninger’s group provides input to the design and packaging of the 911 and Cayman in the concept stage, a fact that will turn engineers at lesser car companies green with envy. It’s not a Lego system—little in the high-performance car industry is—but Preuninger can build his narrow-focus rockets without resorting to a messy chop-shop operation like most manufacturers have tolerated for decades when creating rally and racecars based on production vehicles. This input at early stages is another sign that Porsche is committed to maintaining this effort.
Not sure that will convince you still but looks decent enough 'evidence' to me.
I'm still sceptical about whether, to make the numbers work, the development costs for the GT models will actually be allocated across the wider model range as some of the technology maybe filter down into the base models.To avoid the costly modifications required for performance cars built as an after-thought, Preuninger’s group provides input to the design and packaging of the 911 and Cayman in the concept stage, a fact that will turn engineers at lesser car companies green with envy. It’s not a Lego system—little in the high-performance car industry is—but Preuninger can build his narrow-focus rockets without resorting to a messy chop-shop operation like most manufacturers have tolerated for decades when creating rally and racecars based on production vehicles. This input at early stages is another sign that Porsche is committed to maintaining this effort.
Not sure that will convince you still but looks decent enough 'evidence' to me.
960Spyder said:
I'm working on the fact that the Product Director and the boss of GT cars both claim there will be a Gen 2 GT3 and it will not be turbocharged.
We've seen some photos of the R (same as GT3 but no wing) and now we have seen another car with a wing. Maybe they do a 911R with an optional rear wing. Lol.
Don't worry, I have 'skin in the game' just like you and don't want the values to go down.
I agree that the messages from AP and Porsche hold more weight than the spy photo. However, has AP ever said anything that turned out NOT to be true..?!We've seen some photos of the R (same as GT3 but no wing) and now we have seen another car with a wing. Maybe they do a 911R with an optional rear wing. Lol.
Don't worry, I have 'skin in the game' just like you and don't want the values to go down.
Edited by sidicks on Wednesday 10th February 13:17
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