This is starting to make a bit of sense
Discussion
The Wookie said:
The hollinger box was always the weak point on them, are you still running the manual shifter? Apparently they survive much better with a well setup paddleshift system
Yep, still using the manual shifter. I prefer it as it gives more options adjusting weight distribution on downshifts. You are correct though in that the paddleshift system is deinately kinder to the box. At circa £5k its a decent long term investment.Its the flat shifting that wears them but thats what they are built to do. Generally thwey are horrible when you button the clutch but I've driven the RSR box before and it felt lovely. The ratios are a little odd though. Generally, 1st 2nd and 3rd are long and 4th 5th and 6th very short
I have run 996 GT3 Cup car as a track and race car only. I also have a caterham in race trim (not road legal). Race cars can be run in a no compromise set up which means you do get a more full on experience. They will tend to be lighter with all the associated benefits, firmer, more aggressive geo, track centric tyres or even slicks, no sound deadening etc etc. You really see and feel the difference under braking and through the corners where it will tend to feel more visceral and connected.
Downsides are that it's a hassle - trailers, loading, having the car looked after and so on. More than that though I didn't really enjoy driving a race car on a track day. I tended to be so much faster than the other cars that neither they nor I enjoyed the experience as much as I'd hoped. Given that the speed over other track users is in the braking and cornering that's even more frustrating as those aren't generally areas where track days and track day users welcome overtaking moves. This can leave you getting held up far too often to be satisfying. As a worked example, my caterham can lap Brands Indy in 49s in a race; I attended a track day a few months after that race and I was lucky to break 60s due to hold ups. That feels like a slow cruise and ultimately wasn't fun for me.
Downsides are that it's a hassle - trailers, loading, having the car looked after and so on. More than that though I didn't really enjoy driving a race car on a track day. I tended to be so much faster than the other cars that neither they nor I enjoyed the experience as much as I'd hoped. Given that the speed over other track users is in the braking and cornering that's even more frustrating as those aren't generally areas where track days and track day users welcome overtaking moves. This can leave you getting held up far too often to be satisfying. As a worked example, my caterham can lap Brands Indy in 49s in a race; I attended a track day a few months after that race and I was lucky to break 60s due to hold ups. That feels like a slow cruise and ultimately wasn't fun for me.
shaunRS said:
I think GT4 clubsport is a great option as a trackday car, the drive train is servicable like any Cayman, so compared to the GT3 cup being discussed here I think it would be far cheaper to run?
My team's new GT4 has now done two 24 hour races in the Creventic series, most recently Barcelona last weekend in baking heat, without any expensive mechanical issues to report. No idea how long Porsche recommend you run the engine and gearbox for before rebuilds, though. Obviously you'll be buying race tyres and I doubt the PF discs and pads are cheap - although they are superb.88racing said:
My team's new GT4 has now done two 24 hour races in the Creventic series, most recently Barcelona last weekend in baking heat, without any expensive mechanical issues to report. No idea how long Porsche recommend you run the engine and gearbox for before rebuilds, though. Obviously you'll be buying race tyres and I doubt the PF discs and pads are cheap - although they are superb.
Quick question - what if any parts are interchangeable from race to road car? Saw four of them at Silverstone on Friday, they looked and sounded awesome. Genuinely quick too, certainly more so than I expected and had a real presence,shaunRS said:
The latter GT4 Clubsport (race car). I have the road going GT4 and a possible opportunity has come up to switch.
My GT4 road car I bought to use mainly for track days (not that I've done many with recent work commitments). I imagine the race car it a notch up again and great to drive and I'm sure id be able to get a run in one before I agreed a deal, but I have no knowledge of keeping a non-road legal car, so I'm trying to find out what's involved first.
I think GT4 clubsport is a great option as a trackday car, the drive train is servicable like any Cayman, so compared to the GT3 cup being discussed here I think it would be far cheaper to run? (Sorry for hijacking thread!)
So sorting out transportation, insurances etc aside (the practical stuff!!), is the driving buzz/feeling from a "race" car going to be worth the inconvenience or faffing about with loading the car on and off a trailer - I'd welcome anyone thoughts/experience who runs a trackonly car?... A good dilemma, but still a dilemma!
Thoughts? GT4 road or race?
I haven't driven the GT4 race car but I've seen them in the pits and on the track. They look a typically well engineered car. In terms of pace, my experience is that they are not as fast as the 997.1 cup. I am not familiar with the running costs although my feeling is that they would be cheaper to run in terms of gearbox maintainance. Certainly a different driving experience I think much more accessible for a less experienced driver but perhaps not as rewarding as a Cup. They are a new car so limited second hand opportunities. New prices would be far higher than a 997.1 cup so bang for buck will be lower. The upside is that there should be no mechanical risks. Downside that almost certainly there will be upgraded as the wrinkles are ironed out and they won't be cheap but pretty essential when you come to sel it. My GT4 road car I bought to use mainly for track days (not that I've done many with recent work commitments). I imagine the race car it a notch up again and great to drive and I'm sure id be able to get a run in one before I agreed a deal, but I have no knowledge of keeping a non-road legal car, so I'm trying to find out what's involved first.
I think GT4 clubsport is a great option as a trackday car, the drive train is servicable like any Cayman, so compared to the GT3 cup being discussed here I think it would be far cheaper to run? (Sorry for hijacking thread!)
So sorting out transportation, insurances etc aside (the practical stuff!!), is the driving buzz/feeling from a "race" car going to be worth the inconvenience or faffing about with loading the car on and off a trailer - I'd welcome anyone thoughts/experience who runs a trackonly car?... A good dilemma, but still a dilemma!
Thoughts? GT4 road or race?
Another update. Fitted new Pirellis for the first time yesterday at Silverstone GP. For you chaps looking to run them from new, my advice is dont, a second hand set is a better option. First 3 laps they were good but soon went off and became very inconsistent. After an hour they were poor. They came in very quickly from fresh but went away again quickly. If you are a 'feel' driver you will be able to drive round it. 'Numbers' drivers i think will struggle. I fall in the former catagory. For example on a ride of 3 laps with the same passenger; Aintree was easy flat on the first lap, big oversteer on the next lap (half lock) and uncomfortable flat on the third lap. On each lap the exit of the loop was uncompromised so entry speeds to Aintree would have been within a mile an hour or so on each lap.
Not sure what the concensus is from Chaps that race on these tyres but I was not impressed with the results. They felt synthetic and lacked the consistancy of the Dunlop and Mich.
My conclusion is; if you have the budget fit fresh rubber, I'd fit Dunlops or Miches (Dunlops will last longer and keep the pace down a little). Second hand after a few cyles, the Pirelli is ok but unless you rotate 2 x fresh sets for a few sessions I wouldnt fit new.
Not sure what the concensus is from Chaps that race on these tyres but I was not impressed with the results. They felt synthetic and lacked the consistancy of the Dunlop and Mich.
My conclusion is; if you have the budget fit fresh rubber, I'd fit Dunlops or Miches (Dunlops will last longer and keep the pace down a little). Second hand after a few cyles, the Pirelli is ok but unless you rotate 2 x fresh sets for a few sessions I wouldnt fit new.
Not yet. The problem with changing tyre brands is that generally you need to change 2 sets as most people will have 2 sets of slicks mounted up and one set of wets. If you get a puncture with a slick, it's easy to change to another one. So to change brands you may need to bin a decent set of slicks. Because of that, I'll probably stick to something that I already know. Drivers generally get experience of different tyres if they race in more than one series that have different control tyres. So for me, Mich-Carrera Cup, Dunlop-Britcar/GT Cup etc..
Steve, firstly thanks for this thread. I've been watching it closely since you started.
Basically, I have a first world problem... Last year I decided I was going to get in to the track day game so I bought myself an e92 M3 and some choice mods. I based this on a few passenger laps in Germany with the Schirmer GT's. I didn't use the car much last year but this year I've got my monies worth. I've probably done 20 days split between UK and Ring. I've thoroughly enjoyed it but it's left me wanting to take it to the next stage. Just now its a dedicated track car - I trailer it to track - but it really could be used on road and doing TF at Ring it needs to remain road legal.
I am now at a fork in the road where I do not know which way to go. If I spend further on the M3 I'll be in for the same or more as buying a 997 Cup car. It'll be a fair bit of kit but it won't be the same level as the Cup. It will however be a bit easier to run requiring a lot less servicing and I'm sure there'll be far more specialists that know there way around about it than Cup.
Ultimately I'm after a no compromise car that will be stationed in Germany for track season and will do track days and TF days. In the back end / off season I'll do some UK stuff.
I should add I also have a GT3 but I'm finding it hard to let myself track it.
Basically, I have a first world problem... Last year I decided I was going to get in to the track day game so I bought myself an e92 M3 and some choice mods. I based this on a few passenger laps in Germany with the Schirmer GT's. I didn't use the car much last year but this year I've got my monies worth. I've probably done 20 days split between UK and Ring. I've thoroughly enjoyed it but it's left me wanting to take it to the next stage. Just now its a dedicated track car - I trailer it to track - but it really could be used on road and doing TF at Ring it needs to remain road legal.
I am now at a fork in the road where I do not know which way to go. If I spend further on the M3 I'll be in for the same or more as buying a 997 Cup car. It'll be a fair bit of kit but it won't be the same level as the Cup. It will however be a bit easier to run requiring a lot less servicing and I'm sure there'll be far more specialists that know there way around about it than Cup.
Ultimately I'm after a no compromise car that will be stationed in Germany for track season and will do track days and TF days. In the back end / off season I'll do some UK stuff.
I should add I also have a GT3 but I'm finding it hard to let myself track it.
Apologies for the late reply. I'd go the Cup route. You will buying a factory built race car that is fully developed, fit for purpose that will have a value when you sell it. The BMW may be a nice car, but the chances are, you will spend a lot more money creating something that will not be as quick as a Cup and with a lower sale value.
More feedback on tyres. Tried rotating 2 fresh sets of Pirellis on Monday. Didn't work. Same problems of inconsistency. They really are a poor tyre. I did 35 rides on Monday and on each one the tyres behaved differently. Very tiring to have to constantly adapt. For example, braking point into copse changed up to 5 meters over the afternoon. Not consistently further back but backwards and forwards. Completely unpredictable.
Next year I'm changing to Dunlops.
Next year I'm changing to Dunlops.
To keep everything together in one place:
Here is a short video of the start up proceedure.
https://youtu.be/ql3AdAfcn4A
It's simple.
With the car oup on it's air jacks with stands fitted
1.Start engine as normal (switch on main power, select ignition option then press starter)
2.Select warm up page on Motec mode button
3.Wait for temperature to rise to circa 60-70deg
4.Run up through gear box using clutch to shift - hold circa 2000-3500rpm
5.Run down through gear box. Engine and box now warm
Done..
Then do a few laps to bring brakes and tyres up to temperature (keep the warm up screen on the motec display). Usually 2 laps will be fine. Make sure you work the brakes hard form the off - BEWARE they have no bite at all until the they are up to temperature so WORK THEM HARD on the install laps. This is also the quickest way to get heat into your tyres. Come in to the pits, bleed your tyres off and go out again for a few more laps with the motec screen in race mode. 7/10th on the first lap, 8/10th on the second and 10/10ths on the last. Come in again, bleed off and you are ready to go.
If you are experienced, you can bring the tyres up fully during the first 2 out laps so you wont need to go out twice.
Here is a short video of the start up proceedure.
https://youtu.be/ql3AdAfcn4A
It's simple.
With the car oup on it's air jacks with stands fitted
1.Start engine as normal (switch on main power, select ignition option then press starter)
2.Select warm up page on Motec mode button
3.Wait for temperature to rise to circa 60-70deg
4.Run up through gear box using clutch to shift - hold circa 2000-3500rpm
5.Run down through gear box. Engine and box now warm
Done..
Then do a few laps to bring brakes and tyres up to temperature (keep the warm up screen on the motec display). Usually 2 laps will be fine. Make sure you work the brakes hard form the off - BEWARE they have no bite at all until the they are up to temperature so WORK THEM HARD on the install laps. This is also the quickest way to get heat into your tyres. Come in to the pits, bleed your tyres off and go out again for a few more laps with the motec screen in race mode. 7/10th on the first lap, 8/10th on the second and 10/10ths on the last. Come in again, bleed off and you are ready to go.
If you are experienced, you can bring the tyres up fully during the first 2 out laps so you wont need to go out twice.
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