This is starting to make a bit of sense

[ttdan]

Trev450 said:

isaldiri said:

Trev450 said:

I came very close to purchasing a 997.1 gt3 rs in 2013 which would have been used for quite a few track days. I'm glad I didn't now given their 'inflated' values and the precious nature of potential buyers.

that doesn't make sense surely? If you had bought one in 2013 and gone on to track it a fair bit, unless you pranged it, the car would still be worth considerably more than what you paid for it? the comparison against what it would be worth had you not ever tracked it is neither here nor there in this case....

The point I was trying to make (possibly not very well) was had I purchased one back when they were fetching circa £70k, I would be very reluctant to track in now given the today's values. Furthermore , I would also not be able to take full advantage of current market values once potential buyers had been made aware that the car had been tracked.

This is somewhat typical of todays problem, i understand your point but, its a car to be driven first and an investment as a lucky second. Why do you think driving a track designed car on a track de values it? Fast forward 5 years, the cars will be even rarer. The reality is do you want to own a car and leave it sitting in the garage worrying about its value or do you want to drive the thing and die knowing that thrill. You are a long time dead and a car is a metal object.

[hunter 66]

Yes Steve, Once you drive a Pure race GT car on track even the best road cars ( and there are a lot now ) leave you a little empty .....

[Trev450]

ttdan said:

Trev450 said:

isaldiri said:

Trev450 said:

I came very close to purchasing a 997.1 gt3 rs in 2013 which would have been used for quite a few track days. I'm glad I didn't now given their 'inflated' values and the precious nature of potential buyers.

that doesn't make sense surely? If you had bought one in 2013 and gone on to track it a fair bit, unless you pranged it, the car would still be worth considerably more than what you paid for it? the comparison against what it would be worth had you not ever tracked it is neither here nor there in this case....

The point I was trying to make (possibly not very well) was had I purchased one back when they were fetching circa £70k, I would be very reluctant to track in now given the today's values. Furthermore , I would also not be able to take full advantage of current market values once potential buyers had been made aware that the car had been tracked.

This is somewhat typical of todays problem, i understand your point but, its a car to be driven first and an investment as a lucky second. Why do you think driving a track designed car on a track de values it? Fast forward 5 years, the cars will be even rarer. The reality is do you want to own a car and leave it sitting in the garage worrying about its value or do you want to drive the thing and die knowing that thrill. You are a long time dead and a car is a metal object.

Personally, I don't consider tracking a car devalues it one bit, unfortunately, a good number of people don't share that view and consequently won't consider purchasing one that has had track use.

[ttdan]

Trev450 said:

Personally, I don't consider tracking a car devalues it one bit, unfortunately, a good number of people don't share that view and consequently won't consider purchasing one that has had track use.

True, ish. A few years from now no one will care. If i was in the market for a '73 rs I wouldn't ask if it had been tracked

Your point is very valid, such a shame people see cars as investments rather than machines to enjoy.

[Trev450]

ttdan said:

Trev450 said:

Personally, I don't consider tracking a car devalues it one bit, unfortunately, a good number of people don't share that view and consequently won't consider purchasing one that has had track use.

True, ish. A few years from now no one will care. If i was in the market for a '73 rs I wouldn't ask if it had been tracked

Your point is very valid, such a shame people see cars as investments rather than machines to enjoy.

I couldn't agree more.

[RDMcG]

I came to the conclusion years ago that the cars are for use, and while it is not a bad thing to see values rise, the objective of buying the car ( for me personally ) is to drive the wheels off the thing.

I have no personal comparison with a Cup car as I have never driven one, but I have done a fair bit of track mileage on the 997.1RS, 7.2 RS and 991 RS. I get a wrap put on the cars on delivery at the factory so do not worry about stone chips and the like. Certainly there is a risk on any track but I would prefer a little track rash than a perfect but unexercised car. It does not always work out perfectly..I had a fairly serious accident with a one week old M6 on the Nordschleife in 2006 (wrong car for the track and my own fault anyway), but it never made me focus on the value stuff with later cars as I returned each year, and lots of track days elsewhere. The real value for me is the value of the experience and knowing that the cars are made for this stuff.

I am no professional driver, just someone who loves a good track day. I am curious to understand how much more talent is needed to drive a Cup car compared to the cars I have owned, though. Will an averagely competent track day driver be able to access the added capability of the cup car?

[slodge]

Steve Rance said:

Different beasts to race than to track day. The last few percent takes a lot more out of them. To be honest the engines hang together for a very long time. Porsche now reccomnend leak down tests at 75 hours (was 50) but I raced one very successfully with a lot more hours than that on it. Even if they are down on compression they still run ok, just a little down on power. You will have to go some to bend a chassis in one. It's the box that always worried me - nightmare stories of rebuild costs. I'm told that they are now a lot more affordable. We shall see.

Hi Steve

Are you going to fit a paddle shift system? I hear good things in terms of extending box life and general protection of expensive stuff!


Cheers

Slodge

[SidewaysSi]

How easy/expensive is it to make a Cup car road legal?

[jimmyslr]

RDMcG said:

I came to the conclusion years ago that the cars are for use, and while it is not a bad thing to see values rise, the objective of buying the car ( for me personally ) is to drive the wheels off the thing.

I have no personal comparison with a Cup car as I have never driven one, but I have done a fair bit of track mileage on the 997.1RS, 7.2 RS and 991 RS. I get a wrap put on the cars on delivery at the factory so do not worry about stone chips and the like. Certainly there is a risk on any track but I would prefer a little track rash than a perfect but unexercised car. It does not always work out perfectly..I had a fairly serious accident with a one week old M6 on the Nordschleife in 2006 (wrong car for the track and my own fault anyway), but it never made me focus on the value stuff with later cars as I returned each year, and lots of track days elsewhere. The real value for me is the value of the experience and knowing that the cars are made for this stuff.

I am no professional driver, just someone who loves a good track day. I am curious to understand how much more talent is needed to drive a Cup car compared to the cars I have owned, though. Will an averagely competent track day driver be able to access the added capability of the cup car?

I owned and raced a 996 Cup for a few years and have tracked lots of Pork and other things. I'm no Hamilton just a competent amateur. I raced against some of the blokes on this thread and tended to lose (they had faster cars, obviously...).

Anyway, I think anybody can drive a Cup car. It's stiffer, lighter, harsher, pointier, but brakes and goes better. Add some slicks and it's hilarious. You can hear and feel the same DNA as in the GT/RS cars but it's dialled up a few notches. The fact the car has been well used and "doesn't owe you much" is a bonus and releases the inhibitions that some feel tracking a road car with high inherent value.

My only problem when I started tracking as opposed to racing my Cup car was that it was too quick for all but the fastest of track days. RMA days tended to be OK with overtaking both sides, few cars and fast cars/drivers. Any of the more mainstream days and it was frustrating for me and annoying for the other drivers who didn't go there to have a race car up their boot! I gave up track days at this time as I found it a bit slow and frustrating vs racing. So, careful what you wish for.

[HokumPokum]

slodge said:

Steve Rance said:

Different beasts to race than to track day. The last few percent takes a lot more out of them. To be honest the engines hang together for a very long time. Porsche now reccomnend leak down tests at 75 hours (was 50) but I raced one very successfully with a lot more hours than that on it. Even if they are down on compression they still run ok, just a little down on power. You will have to go some to bend a chassis in one. It's the box that always worried me - nightmare stories of rebuild costs. I'm told that they are now a lot more affordable. We shall see.

Hi Steve

Are you going to fit a paddle shift system? I hear good things in terms of extending box life and general protection of expensive stuff!


Cheers

Slodge

Makes complete sense for u mate.
997.2 cup I think comes with paddles on the later cars?

[slodge]

HokumPokum said:

slodge said:

Steve Rance said:

Different beasts to race than to track day. The last few percent takes a lot more out of them. To be honest the engines hang together for a very long time. Porsche now reccomnend leak down tests at 75 hours (was 50) but I raced one very successfully with a lot more hours than that on it. Even if they are down on compression they still run ok, just a little down on power. You will have to go some to bend a chassis in one. It's the box that always worried me - nightmare stories of rebuild costs. I'm told that they are now a lot more affordable. We shall see.

Hi Steve

Are you going to fit a paddle shift system? I hear good things in terms of extending box life and general protection of expensive stuff!


Cheers

Slodge

Makes complete sense for u mate.
997.2 cup I think comes with paddles on the later cars?

Am giving it some thought!

[hunter 66]

haha Jimmy that is the issue .... slowly drift into racing and then track days become dull after two laps unless doing passenger rides....

[Harris_I]

jimmyslr said:

Anyway, I think anybody can drive a Cup car. It's stiffer, lighter, harsher, pointier, but brakes and goes better. Add some slicks and it's hilarious. You can hear and feel the same DNA as in the GT/RS cars but it's dialled up a few notches. The fact the car has been well used and "doesn't owe you much" is a bonus and releases the inhibitions that some feel tracking a road car with high inherent value.

Agree. I graduated from a tweaked 6.2 GT3 to a 6 Cup. Into the first hard charging corner, I heel and toed clumsily and the car slew sideways. It woke me up. But ultimately all the skills you learn in the GT3 become transferable, it just happens a bit faster and you have to be a bit smoother. I can't speak for the 7 GT3->7 Cup as I think there's more of a difference (never tried the Cup) but certainly on the 6, the road car was an excellent trainer.

[Steve Rance]

slodge said:

Hi Steve

Are you going to fit a paddle shift system? I hear good things in terms of extending box life and general protection of expensive stuff!


Cheers

Slodge

I'm also told that the paddle upgrade is good for gearbox life. I do enjoy working the sequential, especially the heal toe but if paddles prolong gearbox life it will be worth a look

[SRT Hellcat]

Good luck with the Cupcar Steve. It will be interesting to see how the sequential gearbox lasts and the rebuild costs. I think they used to be £16K. Ouch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P1QmCswql0
Incredible how quickly Stefan can change gear. You would think it was sequential. Hope you enjoy

[Steve Rance]

Yep, in some cases it was even more. The hollinger gear sets are considerably cheaper than the Carrera cup sets. I am told that rebuild costs are less than half what they were but the proof of the pudding and all that..

You can flat shift with an H pattern box. Some supercup drivers did it in the 996 super cup - but it eats the box

[Steve Rance]

Porsche911R said:

just track days then you have have to think about one of these.

Very fast little car and I think under rated. running costs will be lower. Not sure on values. My requirement is primarily corporate and I think that the cup will be more of an 'event' to passengers. Also, I have a better understanding of its value and I know the car well. The running costs will be higher.

It all comes down to that gear box. If I'm right then it's a no brainer. If I'm wrong then it may be a mistake

[noneedtolift]

Steve Rance said:

slodge said:

Hi Steve

Are you going to fit a paddle shift system? I hear good things in terms of extending box life and general protection of expensive stuff!


Cheers

Slodge

I'm also told that the paddle upgrade is good for gearbox life. I do enjoy working the sequential, especially the heal toe but if paddles prolong gearbox life it will be worth a look

I'm onto my second Cup car for the exact reasons you describe Steve (doing mainly track days i it these days). I am now also using parts directly from Holinger and have the rebuild costs down to 5k before tax (this is is for the latest gen loose-fit). Running costs still amount to about 800-1.000 k for a running hour if you want to keep the car in perfect shape. I think if you do an honest calculation, running a road car (a GT RS for example) will incurr similar costs.

Albeit I love the manual driving-work like you do, I now run with a hydraulic paddle shifter (it came with the car) and agree that it will be benificial regarding gearbox-life as it really does shift super smooth either way and most important ALL the time.

[Steve Rance]

If you are smooth then the manual option is attractive - but there's a strong argument for the potential cost savings of the paddle.

My car has an auto blip fitted - possibly the worst of both worlds - but it can be over ridden

[BertBert]

Yes a 911 race car will certainly be more of an event than a Lotus road car. Chalk and cheese really.

Steve Rance said:

My requirement is primarily corporate and I think that the cup will be more of an 'event' to passengers.