This is starting to make a bit of sense
Discussion
Yes, I think that used slicks from a good source is the way to go.
For the chaps that may be looking to go this route there is one main issue to bear in mind. Like all racing cars - certainly the ones that I have driven - the Cup is absolutely horrible until you are travelling fast enough to lean on the chassis, tyres and brakes to make everything start to work. Below say 7/10's the car is just horrible, sending all sorts of error messages to the brain - sometimes conflicting 'a damper must be broken, I've got a puncture, a wheel has fallen off' etc.. However, once you pass through the dead zone and the car starts to load up it transforms its character into something truly amazing. One of the joys of the car is that short shifting to say 7500 rpm barely dulls the experience. There is enough power there to have serious fun. But what you must do, be able to do is to have the ability to drive to threshold to enjoy and appreciate a cup car.
If you have the ability to lean on the chassis, correct and keep in front of the car (mentally) then this may well be the perfect track car for you - providing you don't mind trailering. If you don't have those skills,then I would urge you to embark upon a driver training program with a known 911 specialist and ask his or her opinion as to when you are ready to graduate. The Cup car is nothing like as user friendly as a road going GT3 - not even a sharp track focused car. They have a Latin temperament and are quite unforgiving.
For the chaps that may be looking to go this route there is one main issue to bear in mind. Like all racing cars - certainly the ones that I have driven - the Cup is absolutely horrible until you are travelling fast enough to lean on the chassis, tyres and brakes to make everything start to work. Below say 7/10's the car is just horrible, sending all sorts of error messages to the brain - sometimes conflicting 'a damper must be broken, I've got a puncture, a wheel has fallen off' etc.. However, once you pass through the dead zone and the car starts to load up it transforms its character into something truly amazing. One of the joys of the car is that short shifting to say 7500 rpm barely dulls the experience. There is enough power there to have serious fun. But what you must do, be able to do is to have the ability to drive to threshold to enjoy and appreciate a cup car.
If you have the ability to lean on the chassis, correct and keep in front of the car (mentally) then this may well be the perfect track car for you - providing you don't mind trailering. If you don't have those skills,then I would urge you to embark upon a driver training program with a known 911 specialist and ask his or her opinion as to when you are ready to graduate. The Cup car is nothing like as user friendly as a road going GT3 - not even a sharp track focused car. They have a Latin temperament and are quite unforgiving.
Took the Cup car to Brands Hatch on a 101DB day. Fitted a 101DB system and subsiquently failed the noise test at 104DB - as did around half of the other attendees. These included mainly cars with standard exhaust systems such as 996Turbo's, some BMW 3 series road cars etc.. Almost all of the race cars were thrown off. So a word of warning to the GT car owners amongst you - it is unlikely that you will now get on to a Brands Track day as the noise threashold is now even lower than before (drive by 92db. As frustrating for MSV no doubt as it is for everyone else.
Anyway, We managed to get on in the end and through short shifting not get thrown off by breaching the drive by noise meters. It actually snowed during the lunch break and consiquently when the very wet circuit was re-opened there was a general reluctance to go out so we took advantage and got the wet brake bias settings sorted out.
To set your wet bias, move towards the rear until they lock and then wind forward 2 clicks. This prevents the fronts from locking giving you steering all the time up to and beyond threashold. For race I would sometimes look to disconnect the anti roll bars but in a track day situation, just sort your bias out and throw on some wets. A word of warning, make sure that you know which way the bias winds from front to rear. Some are clockwise and some are ant clockwise. I have driven cars with front bias as clockwise and some with rearward clockwise.
Heres some in car from the first few exploritory laps. The short shifting is explined above although I would still be short shifting at several points in those conditions anyway.
https://youtu.be/Mz1BB-NfRu0
Anyway, We managed to get on in the end and through short shifting not get thrown off by breaching the drive by noise meters. It actually snowed during the lunch break and consiquently when the very wet circuit was re-opened there was a general reluctance to go out so we took advantage and got the wet brake bias settings sorted out.
To set your wet bias, move towards the rear until they lock and then wind forward 2 clicks. This prevents the fronts from locking giving you steering all the time up to and beyond threashold. For race I would sometimes look to disconnect the anti roll bars but in a track day situation, just sort your bias out and throw on some wets. A word of warning, make sure that you know which way the bias winds from front to rear. Some are clockwise and some are ant clockwise. I have driven cars with front bias as clockwise and some with rearward clockwise.
Heres some in car from the first few exploritory laps. The short shifting is explined above although I would still be short shifting at several points in those conditions anyway.
https://youtu.be/Mz1BB-NfRu0
slodge said:
Keep it coming Steve - this is great stuff and a very welcome read. Do you have help/ a tech at track to run the 7cup?
Cheers
Slodge
I am using the car for corporate days. Doing rides for clients so it's useful to have tech support on the day. If I were doing private days it would be perfectly fieasable to run the car alone. All you would need is a trailer, a decent jack so that you can run the car through its warm up program ( very straight forward) and a torque wrench to change wheels if needed. Cup cars nearly always come with a few spare sets of wheels so it's no biggie.Cheers
Slodge
So far I've done 2 days in the car. We shaved the ancient Mich slicks that it came with and even after a day and a bit there's plenty of life in them. The wets were old but fine at brands in the afternoon. So the tyre running costs are probably lower than running a normal GT car. We are going to open up the box after the next day and have a look inside. That will be the crunch time.
Harris_I said:
Thanks for the video - keep 'em coming. And if you are ever at Brands again, please let me know. I have yet to find the time to get mine out on track since the start of the year. Just need the motivation.
Will do but unlikely due to the noise restrictions. The indy isn't a circuit well suited to a cup car, it needs longer track day circuits with bigger distances between other cars on the circuit. The GP at 92 drive by is just not viable anymore I definitely get the argument and much prefer to run on fresh rubber but the closing speeds for other track users concern me. Here is some in car at Silverstone GP. The car is on old tyres. Fresh rubber would be a lot quicker. It was a Goldtrack day and the standard of driving was generally decent.
https://youtu.be/YErpz6fbKh8
The. Pirellis had several heat cycles. They are nowhere near as quick as the Miches. My initial thoughts are that they are suitable for track days. Unlike the Miches which tend to wear out, the Pirelli degrades with cycles, wear being secondary.
https://youtu.be/YErpz6fbKh8
The. Pirellis had several heat cycles. They are nowhere near as quick as the Miches. My initial thoughts are that they are suitable for track days. Unlike the Miches which tend to wear out, the Pirelli degrades with cycles, wear being secondary.
Another update for you chaps considering running a 997 cup. Had the gearbox rebuilt. Repalced draw collars, dog rings etc.. Total cost sub £4k so definately not the horror story that it used to be. Needs a new cable and a few other odds and ends though that will ultimately put the cost up - probably by another £1k.
The experience so far is as I expected and hoped. If you are careful, these cars can be run relatively in expensively. The key factor is how many hours that I get out of the rebuilt box. It's easy to protect the engine in a cup car by simply short shifting. I tend to use 7800 RPM as a shift point although with worn tyres, a short shift on tighter exits is needed anyway.
The gearbox is a lot more difficult to nurse. You need to be firm with upshifts and smooth/precise with your heal toe downshifts. With a H pattern, you can take a lot more stress out of the box.
Here's some in car at Rockingham. The banking is easy flat in 6th but with a passenger i'm keeping a little back just in case. On some of the lower risk corners, i'm at 10/10ths.
https://youtu.be/KtAn3pPns9s
The experience so far is as I expected and hoped. If you are careful, these cars can be run relatively in expensively. The key factor is how many hours that I get out of the rebuilt box. It's easy to protect the engine in a cup car by simply short shifting. I tend to use 7800 RPM as a shift point although with worn tyres, a short shift on tighter exits is needed anyway.
The gearbox is a lot more difficult to nurse. You need to be firm with upshifts and smooth/precise with your heal toe downshifts. With a H pattern, you can take a lot more stress out of the box.
Here's some in car at Rockingham. The banking is easy flat in 6th but with a passenger i'm keeping a little back just in case. On some of the lower risk corners, i'm at 10/10ths.
https://youtu.be/KtAn3pPns9s
Hello Chaps.
3/4's of the way throught the season and I thought that i'd give those of you interested in running a 997 cup as a track day option an update.
The car has now completed 10 days at an average of 100 laps per day which equates to about 35 corporate rides per event from my perspective. Generally the it has run pretty fautlessly. My only caviat is the gearbox which is most definately the achiles heal of the car. Following a rebuild earlier in the year the box is out again for another one. As yet, it hasnt been opened but the quantily of metalic particles in the oil does not look promising - on saying that, the nature of the gear box means that evidence of dog wear will immediately find its way to the sump which can make things look worse than they might be. I remain hopeful but fear that i may be living in a fool's paradise.
Other than that, running costs have been as expected. I have spent the majority of the year running on second hand Pirellis which - after multi heat cycles give up much of thier grip. However, if coaxed carefully will give 2 or 3 days if needed. For those of you who try this, you will need to change your driving style as the tyres give life. Typically on day 1, you drive normally. Day 2 will require more coaxing into apex and more front bias as the rears give up grip. Day 3 will require a completely different style which is a real hoot. Usual trail brake on turn in, aim for a theroetical apex about a yard inside the real one, come off of the brakes early to open the diff to rotate the car as all 4 wheels drift across the circuit to the apex. A few stabs of the throttle at apex if needed for further rotation then hard on for the exit as the car straightens. I found this hugely rewarding and most interesting as my experience driving these cars has always been limited to tyres that had much more life in them.
This is a great learning experience where the driver is continually challenged to adapt his/her driving style to extract the most from the tyres. On saying that, I would not advise drivers of lesser experience to stretch thier tyres beyond a day and a half as things can get a little tricky beyond that. A further word of warning, when near the end of thier life, the last few moments are very brief and no discernable loss of grip is apparent - as there is none there at that point anyway. So be careful and visually check for wear after each session. the following pic shows the left rear at the end of the day.
more updates to follow.
3/4's of the way throught the season and I thought that i'd give those of you interested in running a 997 cup as a track day option an update.
The car has now completed 10 days at an average of 100 laps per day which equates to about 35 corporate rides per event from my perspective. Generally the it has run pretty fautlessly. My only caviat is the gearbox which is most definately the achiles heal of the car. Following a rebuild earlier in the year the box is out again for another one. As yet, it hasnt been opened but the quantily of metalic particles in the oil does not look promising - on saying that, the nature of the gear box means that evidence of dog wear will immediately find its way to the sump which can make things look worse than they might be. I remain hopeful but fear that i may be living in a fool's paradise.
Other than that, running costs have been as expected. I have spent the majority of the year running on second hand Pirellis which - after multi heat cycles give up much of thier grip. However, if coaxed carefully will give 2 or 3 days if needed. For those of you who try this, you will need to change your driving style as the tyres give life. Typically on day 1, you drive normally. Day 2 will require more coaxing into apex and more front bias as the rears give up grip. Day 3 will require a completely different style which is a real hoot. Usual trail brake on turn in, aim for a theroetical apex about a yard inside the real one, come off of the brakes early to open the diff to rotate the car as all 4 wheels drift across the circuit to the apex. A few stabs of the throttle at apex if needed for further rotation then hard on for the exit as the car straightens. I found this hugely rewarding and most interesting as my experience driving these cars has always been limited to tyres that had much more life in them.
This is a great learning experience where the driver is continually challenged to adapt his/her driving style to extract the most from the tyres. On saying that, I would not advise drivers of lesser experience to stretch thier tyres beyond a day and a half as things can get a little tricky beyond that. A further word of warning, when near the end of thier life, the last few moments are very brief and no discernable loss of grip is apparent - as there is none there at that point anyway. So be careful and visually check for wear after each session. the following pic shows the left rear at the end of the day.
more updates to follow.
The Wookie said:
The hollinger box was always the weak point on them, are you still running the manual shifter? Apparently they survive much better with a well setup paddleshift system
Yep, still using the manual shifter. I prefer it as it gives more options adjusting weight distribution on downshifts. You are correct though in that the paddleshift system is deinately kinder to the box. At circa £5k its a decent long term investment.Its the flat shifting that wears them but thats what they are built to do. Generally thwey are horrible when you button the clutch but I've driven the RSR box before and it felt lovely. The ratios are a little odd though. Generally, 1st 2nd and 3rd are long and 4th 5th and 6th very short
shaunRS said:
The latter GT4 Clubsport (race car). I have the road going GT4 and a possible opportunity has come up to switch.
My GT4 road car I bought to use mainly for track days (not that I've done many with recent work commitments). I imagine the race car it a notch up again and great to drive and I'm sure id be able to get a run in one before I agreed a deal, but I have no knowledge of keeping a non-road legal car, so I'm trying to find out what's involved first.
I think GT4 clubsport is a great option as a trackday car, the drive train is servicable like any Cayman, so compared to the GT3 cup being discussed here I think it would be far cheaper to run? (Sorry for hijacking thread!)
So sorting out transportation, insurances etc aside (the practical stuff!!), is the driving buzz/feeling from a "race" car going to be worth the inconvenience or faffing about with loading the car on and off a trailer - I'd welcome anyone thoughts/experience who runs a trackonly car?... A good dilemma, but still a dilemma!
Thoughts? GT4 road or race?
I haven't driven the GT4 race car but I've seen them in the pits and on the track. They look a typically well engineered car. In terms of pace, my experience is that they are not as fast as the 997.1 cup. I am not familiar with the running costs although my feeling is that they would be cheaper to run in terms of gearbox maintainance. Certainly a different driving experience I think much more accessible for a less experienced driver but perhaps not as rewarding as a Cup. They are a new car so limited second hand opportunities. New prices would be far higher than a 997.1 cup so bang for buck will be lower. The upside is that there should be no mechanical risks. Downside that almost certainly there will be upgraded as the wrinkles are ironed out and they won't be cheap but pretty essential when you come to sel it. My GT4 road car I bought to use mainly for track days (not that I've done many with recent work commitments). I imagine the race car it a notch up again and great to drive and I'm sure id be able to get a run in one before I agreed a deal, but I have no knowledge of keeping a non-road legal car, so I'm trying to find out what's involved first.
I think GT4 clubsport is a great option as a trackday car, the drive train is servicable like any Cayman, so compared to the GT3 cup being discussed here I think it would be far cheaper to run? (Sorry for hijacking thread!)
So sorting out transportation, insurances etc aside (the practical stuff!!), is the driving buzz/feeling from a "race" car going to be worth the inconvenience or faffing about with loading the car on and off a trailer - I'd welcome anyone thoughts/experience who runs a trackonly car?... A good dilemma, but still a dilemma!
Thoughts? GT4 road or race?
Another update. Fitted new Pirellis for the first time yesterday at Silverstone GP. For you chaps looking to run them from new, my advice is dont, a second hand set is a better option. First 3 laps they were good but soon went off and became very inconsistent. After an hour they were poor. They came in very quickly from fresh but went away again quickly. If you are a 'feel' driver you will be able to drive round it. 'Numbers' drivers i think will struggle. I fall in the former catagory. For example on a ride of 3 laps with the same passenger; Aintree was easy flat on the first lap, big oversteer on the next lap (half lock) and uncomfortable flat on the third lap. On each lap the exit of the loop was uncompromised so entry speeds to Aintree would have been within a mile an hour or so on each lap.
Not sure what the concensus is from Chaps that race on these tyres but I was not impressed with the results. They felt synthetic and lacked the consistancy of the Dunlop and Mich.
My conclusion is; if you have the budget fit fresh rubber, I'd fit Dunlops or Miches (Dunlops will last longer and keep the pace down a little). Second hand after a few cyles, the Pirelli is ok but unless you rotate 2 x fresh sets for a few sessions I wouldnt fit new.
Not sure what the concensus is from Chaps that race on these tyres but I was not impressed with the results. They felt synthetic and lacked the consistancy of the Dunlop and Mich.
My conclusion is; if you have the budget fit fresh rubber, I'd fit Dunlops or Miches (Dunlops will last longer and keep the pace down a little). Second hand after a few cyles, the Pirelli is ok but unless you rotate 2 x fresh sets for a few sessions I wouldnt fit new.
Not yet. The problem with changing tyre brands is that generally you need to change 2 sets as most people will have 2 sets of slicks mounted up and one set of wets. If you get a puncture with a slick, it's easy to change to another one. So to change brands you may need to bin a decent set of slicks. Because of that, I'll probably stick to something that I already know. Drivers generally get experience of different tyres if they race in more than one series that have different control tyres. So for me, Mich-Carrera Cup, Dunlop-Britcar/GT Cup etc..
Apologies for the late reply. I'd go the Cup route. You will buying a factory built race car that is fully developed, fit for purpose that will have a value when you sell it. The BMW may be a nice car, but the chances are, you will spend a lot more money creating something that will not be as quick as a Cup and with a lower sale value.
More feedback on tyres. Tried rotating 2 fresh sets of Pirellis on Monday. Didn't work. Same problems of inconsistency. They really are a poor tyre. I did 35 rides on Monday and on each one the tyres behaved differently. Very tiring to have to constantly adapt. For example, braking point into copse changed up to 5 meters over the afternoon. Not consistently further back but backwards and forwards. Completely unpredictable.
Next year I'm changing to Dunlops.
Next year I'm changing to Dunlops.
To keep everything together in one place:
Here is a short video of the start up proceedure.
https://youtu.be/ql3AdAfcn4A
It's simple.
With the car oup on it's air jacks with stands fitted
1.Start engine as normal (switch on main power, select ignition option then press starter)
2.Select warm up page on Motec mode button
3.Wait for temperature to rise to circa 60-70deg
4.Run up through gear box using clutch to shift - hold circa 2000-3500rpm
5.Run down through gear box. Engine and box now warm
Done..
Then do a few laps to bring brakes and tyres up to temperature (keep the warm up screen on the motec display). Usually 2 laps will be fine. Make sure you work the brakes hard form the off - BEWARE they have no bite at all until the they are up to temperature so WORK THEM HARD on the install laps. This is also the quickest way to get heat into your tyres. Come in to the pits, bleed your tyres off and go out again for a few more laps with the motec screen in race mode. 7/10th on the first lap, 8/10th on the second and 10/10ths on the last. Come in again, bleed off and you are ready to go.
If you are experienced, you can bring the tyres up fully during the first 2 out laps so you wont need to go out twice.
Here is a short video of the start up proceedure.
https://youtu.be/ql3AdAfcn4A
It's simple.
With the car oup on it's air jacks with stands fitted
1.Start engine as normal (switch on main power, select ignition option then press starter)
2.Select warm up page on Motec mode button
3.Wait for temperature to rise to circa 60-70deg
4.Run up through gear box using clutch to shift - hold circa 2000-3500rpm
5.Run down through gear box. Engine and box now warm
Done..
Then do a few laps to bring brakes and tyres up to temperature (keep the warm up screen on the motec display). Usually 2 laps will be fine. Make sure you work the brakes hard form the off - BEWARE they have no bite at all until the they are up to temperature so WORK THEM HARD on the install laps. This is also the quickest way to get heat into your tyres. Come in to the pits, bleed your tyres off and go out again for a few more laps with the motec screen in race mode. 7/10th on the first lap, 8/10th on the second and 10/10ths on the last. Come in again, bleed off and you are ready to go.
If you are experienced, you can bring the tyres up fully during the first 2 out laps so you wont need to go out twice.
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