Discussion
Drove a friend's GT4 at Spa during a dry session yesterday.
It was completely standard on Sport Max tyres and stock geo. all electronic AIDS were turned off and the car in sport mode. I found the car very well balanced with an as expected sharper turn in than a 911. It is a very confidence inspiring cat to drive. An experienced peddler can be pretty much on the pace in a handful of laps. Bags of mechanical grip from the chassis but the Sport max tyre went off and gave up its grip quite quickly. From experience in 911's I find that Cup 2's also go off but you will get a few more laps in before they do.
For me, the car is about balace. The engine had plenty of power and a character that reminds me of the 3.6 in my little 964. I would certainly disagree with anyone that argued that it lacks character both in terms of engine and chasis.
The only minor issue that puzzled me slightly was the car's performance during the entry to Eau rouge. Typically I would attack the apex with a full throttle, then brake in the compression, rotate the car and then take throttle as the car exits up the hill. During the entry phase under 100% throttle, the car felt nervous as it changed direction at the turn in point and was generally less stable than I would expect. There was a vaigness when changing direction at high speed on the downhill section and there was a definite feeling of impending oversteer. To drive around it, I found myself turning in earlier, asking less of the chassis and using the compression to correct the car's attitude. That moment probably defines the main difference between driving a well balanced mid engined car and a rear engined one. The 911 will move around a lot more but give a early warning about what it is going to do. The mid engined car is much more stable up to 10/10ths but vaiguer when it approaches threshold in certain situations. The upside is that it makes exploring the chassis up to say 9.5/10ths a much more accessible pastime to most drivers. but he will need to have some decent driving skills in his armoury to exploit the final element of performance and deal with 11/10th situations.
Over all, I was very impressed with the car, it is a beautifully judged package very well executed. Adding more power may - in my opinion - well upset the balance that defines the car. This is most definitely a proper GT Porsche and I would love to own one.
It was completely standard on Sport Max tyres and stock geo. all electronic AIDS were turned off and the car in sport mode. I found the car very well balanced with an as expected sharper turn in than a 911. It is a very confidence inspiring cat to drive. An experienced peddler can be pretty much on the pace in a handful of laps. Bags of mechanical grip from the chassis but the Sport max tyre went off and gave up its grip quite quickly. From experience in 911's I find that Cup 2's also go off but you will get a few more laps in before they do.
For me, the car is about balace. The engine had plenty of power and a character that reminds me of the 3.6 in my little 964. I would certainly disagree with anyone that argued that it lacks character both in terms of engine and chasis.
The only minor issue that puzzled me slightly was the car's performance during the entry to Eau rouge. Typically I would attack the apex with a full throttle, then brake in the compression, rotate the car and then take throttle as the car exits up the hill. During the entry phase under 100% throttle, the car felt nervous as it changed direction at the turn in point and was generally less stable than I would expect. There was a vaigness when changing direction at high speed on the downhill section and there was a definite feeling of impending oversteer. To drive around it, I found myself turning in earlier, asking less of the chassis and using the compression to correct the car's attitude. That moment probably defines the main difference between driving a well balanced mid engined car and a rear engined one. The 911 will move around a lot more but give a early warning about what it is going to do. The mid engined car is much more stable up to 10/10ths but vaiguer when it approaches threshold in certain situations. The upside is that it makes exploring the chassis up to say 9.5/10ths a much more accessible pastime to most drivers. but he will need to have some decent driving skills in his armoury to exploit the final element of performance and deal with 11/10th situations.
Over all, I was very impressed with the car, it is a beautifully judged package very well executed. Adding more power may - in my opinion - well upset the balance that defines the car. This is most definitely a proper GT Porsche and I would love to own one.
Edited by Steve Rance on Wednesday 11th May 08:06
well you back up 2 main points I talk about but every one and I mean every one says b
ks, if I say them lol
Now it seems I have two of your fav cars ;-), how did you find the push if it were stock, or did you drive it 911 style and trail brake into every corner ?
I don't like the stock geo at all and now run -2.3 up front with zero toe in and -1.8 at the back with monoball rear toe links, lucky my cars on Cups.
Great car the GT4 but the lack of rear oem adjustment is annoying as many people will stay stock and miss out, and imo I do think it would be great with the x51 kit to give it some red line fizz.
ks, if I say them lolNow it seems I have two of your fav cars ;-), how did you find the push if it were stock, or did you drive it 911 style and trail brake into every corner ?
I don't like the stock geo at all and now run -2.3 up front with zero toe in and -1.8 at the back with monoball rear toe links, lucky my cars on Cups.
Great car the GT4 but the lack of rear oem adjustment is annoying as many people will stay stock and miss out, and imo I do think it would be great with the x51 kit to give it some red line fizz.
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 11th May 09:00
I was at Spa on Monday (TF at ring on Sunday) for the 1st of the RMA days - 4 of us in my group, my dark blue GT4, white GT4, red GT4 and a silver R8. Super day at Spa on Monday, great variety of road cars and race cars but high standard of driving. All our GT4's were on cup2's and no real issue with them going off, although we kept the stints down to around 10 laps each as it was a very hot day. Laps all within 2.53-2.57 band, perhaps sub 2.50 is possible with no traffic at race pace but not sure I'd want to be quite that aggressive with a road car. My friends are all current or ex 964 RS / GT3 owners and we agreed that our GT4's more than earnt their stripes this weekend. Beautifully balanced car, not excessively demanding to drive true, but still a lot of fun and by no means embarrassed by GT3's. Proper mini-GT Porsche. Love it !
Steve ... I was probably not attacking Eau Rouge as hard as you so never felt that issue, but I found that dabbing brakes hard into very fast downhill corners (entering into B2 for example) the back end would feel skittish under braking. I think maybe something to do with the rear toe?
With regards to Dunlops vs Cup2s .... The fronts on the Dunlops were shot after just 2 track days. I also found they were less predictable than the Cup2s and found getting stable temperatures in them more difficult. I changed tyres in the afternoon sessions at Spa to Cup2s and they were a revelation in comparison. Black Falcon who race the GT4 CS fitted them for me and said they are 3-4 sec quicker aorund Spa. On Dunlops I was setting 2:53, on the Cup2s I managed 2:49 (ideal lap without traffic would have been 2:48). I think this car can do sub 2:45 in the right conditions.
In your opinion Steve, what would you do to the standard geo? More camber and front med/rear hard arb settings is what most people are requesting. Just worried about upsetting the balance of the car, its fantastic as is but could do with more front end bite in my opinion.
Thanks.
With regards to Dunlops vs Cup2s .... The fronts on the Dunlops were shot after just 2 track days. I also found they were less predictable than the Cup2s and found getting stable temperatures in them more difficult. I changed tyres in the afternoon sessions at Spa to Cup2s and they were a revelation in comparison. Black Falcon who race the GT4 CS fitted them for me and said they are 3-4 sec quicker aorund Spa. On Dunlops I was setting 2:53, on the Cup2s I managed 2:49 (ideal lap without traffic would have been 2:48). I think this car can do sub 2:45 in the right conditions.
In your opinion Steve, what would you do to the standard geo? More camber and front med/rear hard arb settings is what most people are requesting. Just worried about upsetting the balance of the car, its fantastic as is but could do with more front end bite in my opinion.
Thanks.
Steve Rance said:
Drove a friend's GT4 at Spa during a dry session yesterday.
It was completely standard on Sport Max tyres and stock geo. all electronic AIDS were turned off and the car in sport mode. I found the car very well balanced with an as expected sharper turn in than a 911. It is a very confidence inspiring cat to drive. An experienced peddler can be pretty much on the pace in a handful of laps. Bags of mechanical grip from the chassis but the Sport max tyre went off and gave up its grip quite quickly. From experience in 911's I find that Cup 2's also go off but you will get a few more laps in before they do.
For me, the car is about balace. The engine had plenty of power and a character that reminds me of the 3.6 in my little 964. I would certainly disagree with anyone that argued that it lacks character both in terms of engine and chasis.
The only minor issue that puzzled me slightly was the car's performance during the entry to Eau rouge. Typically I would attack the apex with a full throttle, then brake in the compression, rotate the car and then take throttle as the car exits up the hill. During the entry phase under 100% throttle, the car felt nervous as it changed direction at the turn in point and was generally less stable than I would expect. There was a vaigness when changing direction at high speed on the downhill section and there was a definite feeling of impending oversteer. To drive around it, I found myself turning in earlier, asking less of the chassis and using the compression to correct the car's attitude. That moment probably defines the main difference between driving a well balanced mid engined car and a rear engined one. The 911 will move around a lot more but give a early warning about what it is going to do. The mid engined car is much more stable up to 10/10ths but vaiguer when it approaches threshold in certain situations. The upside is that it makes exploring the chassis up to say 9.5/10ths a much more accessible pastime to most drivers. but he will need to have some decent driving skills in his armoury to exploit the final element of performance and deal with 11/10th situations.
Over all, I was very impressed with the car, it is a beautifully judged package very well executed. Adding more power may - in my opinion - well upset the balance that defines the car. This is most definitely a proper GT Porsche and I would love to own one.
It was completely standard on Sport Max tyres and stock geo. all electronic AIDS were turned off and the car in sport mode. I found the car very well balanced with an as expected sharper turn in than a 911. It is a very confidence inspiring cat to drive. An experienced peddler can be pretty much on the pace in a handful of laps. Bags of mechanical grip from the chassis but the Sport max tyre went off and gave up its grip quite quickly. From experience in 911's I find that Cup 2's also go off but you will get a few more laps in before they do.
For me, the car is about balace. The engine had plenty of power and a character that reminds me of the 3.6 in my little 964. I would certainly disagree with anyone that argued that it lacks character both in terms of engine and chasis.
The only minor issue that puzzled me slightly was the car's performance during the entry to Eau rouge. Typically I would attack the apex with a full throttle, then brake in the compression, rotate the car and then take throttle as the car exits up the hill. During the entry phase under 100% throttle, the car felt nervous as it changed direction at the turn in point and was generally less stable than I would expect. There was a vaigness when changing direction at high speed on the downhill section and there was a definite feeling of impending oversteer. To drive around it, I found myself turning in earlier, asking less of the chassis and using the compression to correct the car's attitude. That moment probably defines the main difference between driving a well balanced mid engined car and a rear engined one. The 911 will move around a lot more but give a early warning about what it is going to do. The mid engined car is much more stable up to 10/10ths but vaiguer when it approaches threshold in certain situations. The upside is that it makes exploring the chassis up to say 9.5/10ths a much more accessible pastime to most drivers. but he will need to have some decent driving skills in his armoury to exploit the final element of performance and deal with 11/10th situations.
Over all, I was very impressed with the car, it is a beautifully judged package very well executed. Adding more power may - in my opinion - well upset the balance that defines the car. This is most definitely a proper GT Porsche and I would love to own one.
Edited by Steve Rance on Wednesday 11th May 08:06
Porsche911R said:
well you back up 2 main points I talk about but every one and I mean every one says bks, if I say them lol
Now it seems I have two of your fav cars, how did you find the push if it were stock, or did you drive it 911 style and trail brake into every corner ?
I don't like the stock geo at all and now run -2.3 up front with zero toe in and -1.8 at the back with monoball rear toe links, lucky my cars on Cups.
It needed a little trail in low speed corners, took a little more speed in to the apex but had to wait longer to get fully on the throttle for exit. I found the stock geo ok but like you I'd be adding camber. I like to trail as much as I can because it's generally quicker. I may add a little more than you to the rear because I think that I'd get a little oversteer with that set up - primarily because of my preference to trail. ks, if I say them lolNow it seems I have two of your fav cars, how did you find the push if it were stock, or did you drive it 911 style and trail brake into every corner ?
I don't like the stock geo at all and now run -2.3 up front with zero toe in and -1.8 at the back with monoball rear toe links, lucky my cars on Cups.
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 11th May 08:39
Yep, I'd be happy to have a GT4 or a spider in my garage.
Driveopolis review. I like this guy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEoPOo1Ae_k
Another driver that doesn't get the issue with the long gearing
Another driver that doesn't get the issue with the long gearing
Porsche911R said:
well you back up 2 main points I talk about but every one and I mean every one says bks, if I say them lol
Now it seems I have two of your fav cars ;-), how did you find the push if it were stock, or did you drive it 911 style and trail brake into every corner ?
I don't like the stock geo at all and now run -2.3 up front with zero toe in and -1.8 at the back with monoball rear toe links, lucky my cars on Cups.
Great car the GT4 but the lack of rear oem adjustment is annoying as many people will stay stock and miss out, and imo I do think it would be great with the x51 kit to give it some red line fizz.
Adding more camber and grip will make the transition at the limit even more brutal. ks, if I say them lolNow it seems I have two of your fav cars ;-), how did you find the push if it were stock, or did you drive it 911 style and trail brake into every corner ?
I don't like the stock geo at all and now run -2.3 up front with zero toe in and -1.8 at the back with monoball rear toe links, lucky my cars on Cups.
Great car the GT4 but the lack of rear oem adjustment is annoying as many people will stay stock and miss out, and imo I do think it would be great with the x51 kit to give it some red line fizz.
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 11th May 09:00
jackwood said:
Adding more camber and grip will make the transition at the limit even more brutal.
the limits far higher though so you are faster :-)I hit the limits on the road in my oem GT4 right or wrong I don't care about, and once at the limits the car push's like mad and I find frustrating.
you wait and wait for grip, if you touch the throttle at the limit it just pushes.
I cannot hit the limits on the road in my GT4 now, I am not stupid enough or have big enough balls to do so on the road in the current set up.
It feels much much better for me.
As I said it might be horrid on track at the limit, who knows , not tracked it yet, but I had to guess at a starting point geo of something and any thing is better than oem imo :-) as I don't want to drive it like a 911 !!.
If I spin on track at the 1st bend then I guessed some wrong settings ;-)
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 11th May 10:52
Phooey said:
Driveopolis review. I like this guy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEoPOo1Ae_k
Another driver that doesn't get the issue with the long gearing
on track you are going faster, on the road 85mph in 2nd is daft and the car is dead in 2nd below 4.5k revs really (ok not dead, but not alive, I said the GT3 is dead below 6k and people get angry , I don't want angry GT4 owners as well lol)Another driver that doesn't get the issue with the long gearing
ON track you never see below 4.5k revs in 2nd hence less of an issue, but he never got any where near red line in 4th on track so he has 2.5 gears left in the bag !! doing switch backs in the mountains will mean forcing the GT4 into 1st gear, cars are never happy with that imo bar PDK's
I did a euro hoon 2 years back in my R and another car was PDK I was lugging out of slow bends in 2nd on the mountains while he was drifting out them in 1st !
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 11th May 11:47
Steve Rance said:
I would certainly disagree with anyone that argued that it lacks character both in terms of engine and chasis.
This is most definitely a proper GT Porsche and I would love to own one.
interesting you found that I have to say and quite unexpected for me. Personally I am finding the gt4 is a (very) long way behind the 7.2gt3 in feedback and 'character', albeit mainly being driven on the road so far. Will be at Donington on Friday, hope the car does show itself better thenThis is most definitely a proper GT Porsche and I would love to own one.
isaldiri said:
Steve Rance said:
I would certainly disagree with anyone that argued that it lacks character both in terms of engine and chasis.
This is most definitely a proper GT Porsche and I would love to own one.
interesting you found that I have to say and quite unexpected for me. Personally I am finding the gt4 is a (very) long way behind the 7.2gt3 in feedback and 'character', albeit mainly being driven on the road so far. Will be at Donington on Friday, hope the car does show itself better thenThis is most definitely a proper GT Porsche and I would love to own one.
isaldiri said:
interesting you found that I have to say and quite unexpected for me. Personally I am finding the gt4 is a (very) long way behind the 7.2gt3 in feedback and 'character', albeit mainly being driven on the road so far. Will be at Donington on Friday, hope the car does show itself better then
I think you are suffering from prejudice - which I did too at the start, didn't want to like it. It wasn't a mezger GT3. It still isn't.
But, it's not a bad car either by a long shot.
Ideally you need to have both
Plus I compare it to the 996 GT3 and not the 997.
And compared to the 6GT3 they are sufficiently different to occupy slightly different categories. Each good in its space.
Ultimately the 6GT3 is more analogue with more raw feedback whilst the GT4 much more versatile and 'comfortable' (in a good way)
Edited by LaSource on Wednesday 11th May 14:32
LaSource said:
I think you are suffering from prejudice - which I did too at the start, didn't want to like it. It wasn't a mezger GT3.
It still isn't.
But, it's not a bad car either by a long shot.
Ideally you need to have both
Plus I compare it to the 996 GT3 and not the 997.
And compared to the 6GT3 they are sufficiently different to occupy slightly different categories. Each good in its space.
Ultimately the 6GT3 is more analogue with more raw feedback whilst the GT4 much more versatile and 'comfortable' (in a good way)
In all honesty, i think, or i like to persuade myself anyway It still isn't.
But, it's not a bad car either by a long shot.
Ideally you need to have both
Plus I compare it to the 996 GT3 and not the 997.
And compared to the 6GT3 they are sufficiently different to occupy slightly different categories. Each good in its space.
Ultimately the 6GT3 is more analogue with more raw feedback whilst the GT4 much more versatile and 'comfortable' (in a good way)
I've gone into the gt4 with an open mind. Funny thing is the stuff that i thought might bother me (torque vectoring/gearing/electric steering) hasn't really been the issue. It's the general feel of the car that was very different to what i was expecting ie a less powerful, mid engine version of the 7gt3. capable as the gt4 is (and I'm not saying at all it's not a good car as it is), it's just imo not comparable (even outside of the engine) with the 7gt3. Ok i admit perhaps i was raising expectations too much driving the 7.2RS to collect the car but I then subsequently drove the gt4 back to back with one of those supposedly vastly digitised dual clutch cars and both the friend with me who drove both cars and I felt the gt4 was still lacking 'something'....
I'm at Silverstone next Tueaday. Pop down if you are free - should be testing out new geo on the GT4. We can interrogate the data logger too with some overlays from other cars.
Hmm - we could take the 6rs as well - now there's a thought! I may be short a good set of comparable tyres though.
Hmm - we could take the 6rs as well - now there's a thought! I may be short a good set of comparable tyres though.
LaSource said:
I'm at Silverstone next Tueaday. Pop down if you are free - should be testing out new geo on the GT4. We can interrogate the data logger too with some overlays from other cars.
Hmm - we could take the 6rs as well - now there's a thought! I may be short a good set of comparable tyres though.
Argh bad timing. I'm at the BaT day on Friday at Donny already, getting to Silverstone on tuesday after would be a bit of a stretch. Hmm - we could take the 6rs as well - now there's a thought! I may be short a good set of comparable tyres though.
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