Discussion
As a respite to the squabbling here's an edit I've done of the GT4s I saw on track at Donington:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz5aEy3htPg
Sorry it's mostly from a distance but I can't keep up with you boys (even if I had a GT4).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz5aEy3htPg
Sorry it's mostly from a distance but I can't keep up with you boys (even if I had a GT4).
I take a lift through Craners looking for the nose to turn onto the left hand kerb and then flat round the left hander and a very hard brake straight then into the Old Hairpin.
I was seeing 106 into Craners and I was no longer looking for the big brake and turn-in ...
When my TPM is playing I see pressures peaking at 34 on the nearside and 33 psi on the drivers side ... and the extra bit of pressure on the near side did seem to help.
G's --- yes I'd love to know what peaks these --- I've never used the App properly. Somebody mentioned a 1:20 but I never time so ??
All I know is, at the moment I can't go much faster, but every lap was with a passenger ...
As a matter of interest one of my brake ducts fell off today and I ran over it --- so maybe worth checking they are secure --- I'm cable tying mine !
And, I'm fitting a new set of PCCB pads because I have heat deterioration of the pad material which is now almost half worn --- they'll do as spares !
I was seeing 106 into Craners and I was no longer looking for the big brake and turn-in ...
When my TPM is playing I see pressures peaking at 34 on the nearside and 33 psi on the drivers side ... and the extra bit of pressure on the near side did seem to help.
G's --- yes I'd love to know what peaks these --- I've never used the App properly. Somebody mentioned a 1:20 but I never time so ??
All I know is, at the moment I can't go much faster, but every lap was with a passenger ...
As a matter of interest one of my brake ducts fell off today and I ran over it --- so maybe worth checking they are secure --- I'm cable tying mine !
And, I'm fitting a new set of PCCB pads because I have heat deterioration of the pad material which is now almost half worn --- they'll do as spares !
ravon said:
ChrisW, I really enjoyed my passenger laps with you, it was such a contrast in driving styles ! You coming from a sprint race back ground and me from a road craft and endurance race background, just shows there are plenty of ways of ending up with much the same thing ! Very good to meet you !
Thanks Tim ! ... I missed my passenger ride, something to look forward to 
jackwood said:
Great day today.
Nice to meet Ian, Ian, Chris, Tim, Dave, Darren etc etc etc.
I didn't die on the first lap. Car was mega, as always.
Dave's pyro showed up some interesting things. Namely, as I suspected and have said before, driving style will dictate what you do to your tyres more than geo will. I was clearly driving my car far more from the rear. My fronts were very even across the width temp-wise, but the outside of the rears were a bit warmer than the insides.
I'm running stock geo with stock bars on Cup2's
Little lap from later in the day:
http://youtu.be/_X9L8ns-tfs
A very nice lap ... Nice to meet Ian, Ian, Chris, Tim, Dave, Darren etc etc etc.
I didn't die on the first lap. Car was mega, as always.
Dave's pyro showed up some interesting things. Namely, as I suspected and have said before, driving style will dictate what you do to your tyres more than geo will. I was clearly driving my car far more from the rear. My fronts were very even across the width temp-wise, but the outside of the rears were a bit warmer than the insides.
I'm running stock geo with stock bars on Cup2's
Little lap from later in the day:
http://youtu.be/_X9L8ns-tfs
LaSource said:
Jack, thanks for the feedback.
I am also running with the hypothesis that fastest speed and best tyre wear are possibly two separate things on the GT4.
I have found the std setup to be very fast. Unfortunately not had the pleasure of an empty track to test pace of the modified setup.
I was supposed to be busy tomorrow and didn't book the silverstone day. Not it looks like I'm free but it's sold out.
If anyone knows of a spare slot then please let me know
I found the med/hard f/r arb setting to give me a bit too much rear movement and ended up going med/med last time out. I wouldn't mind testing med/hard again and playing with driving style.
I am hard ARB rear and correct it's too stiff and a bit bouncy out the bends, middle middle lets the car be more balanced and you can 4 wheel drift out the bends. ARB rear stiff also saw my car with much cooler rears than fronts, where Chris and Jacks car are more even front to rear.I am also running with the hypothesis that fastest speed and best tyre wear are possibly two separate things on the GT4.
I have found the std setup to be very fast. Unfortunately not had the pleasure of an empty track to test pace of the modified setup.
I was supposed to be busy tomorrow and didn't book the silverstone day. Not it looks like I'm free but it's sold out.
If anyone knows of a spare slot then please let me know
I found the med/hard f/r arb setting to give me a bit too much rear movement and ended up going med/med last time out. I wouldn't mind testing med/hard again and playing with driving style.
If one has the skill, (I don't) you could power slide out the bends with this set up, but it needs more skill and balls than I have.
Harris likes to adjust the car on the throttle rather than the brake though and that set up allows that.
Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 9th June 09:29
jackwood said:
Sorry, don't understand. You were showing me your front tyres and pointing out how far over the shoulder they had worn.
So, again, confused, are we now talking about what's fastest, or how to mitigate front tyre wear?
You could have -4deg camber and still be slower than a guy with zero camber and a huge bag of skill.
Yes the point is being happy with what YOU have and what YOU want out of it. And that is where it should become what is best "for you" in "your opinion" rather than flatly stating that camber wins. Because for me, it doesn't. Right now. (I reserve the right to change my mind at any point... )
What I can tell you is that you don't HAVE to modify your car, add shims, toe links, camber, etc, still run very decent times, and not destroy your tyres, if you just practice your art a bit and adjust your driving style slightly.
Or you can go the route of throw money at it.
Personally I find the route of self-improvement way way way more fulfilling. But I'm clearly in the minority in here. A lot of noise from the workman-blaming-tool-brigade as usual. Seems like few people are up for the challenge of improving themselves these days. Society all over though, I suppose.
Not really over the shoulder, take a look at Chris front that's OVER the shoulder !So, again, confused, are we now talking about what's fastest, or how to mitigate front tyre wear?
You could have -4deg camber and still be slower than a guy with zero camber and a huge bag of skill.
Yes the point is being happy with what YOU have and what YOU want out of it. And that is where it should become what is best "for you" in "your opinion" rather than flatly stating that camber wins. Because for me, it doesn't. Right now. (I reserve the right to change my mind at any point...
)What I can tell you is that you don't HAVE to modify your car, add shims, toe links, camber, etc, still run very decent times, and not destroy your tyres, if you just practice your art a bit and adjust your driving style slightly.
Or you can go the route of throw money at it.
Personally I find the route of self-improvement way way way more fulfilling. But I'm clearly in the minority in here. A lot of noise from the workman-blaming-tool-brigade as usual. Seems like few people are up for the challenge of improving themselves these days. Society all over though, I suppose.
I am talking about how to get the fastest time from the car btw.
NO one is blaiming tools, and every one is a good driver,you may be a better driver than me, that's not what this is about ! I went to get info about styles ,cars and balance with real data to learn from it, if you don't want to learn from it then that's fine, I did ask you to come out with me to see my style, but you said nope !
Mine , yours and Chris are all way apart but all are fast. Chris has the edge as he uses his car to the max, it's a tool for him and it's on the limit, as he said there is no time left in it, my tyres were not even squealing like yours and Chris's I have time in hand by a big margin, but don't have the balls to go balls out like Chris esp down craner.
Having a Geo and fitting a 8mm Shim for £25 is NOT throwing money at it lol.
You adjust the car on the brakes, I adjust the car on the Throttle, Chris does every thing and is on the balls out limit every where lol
Take at look at Boxesy vid, that's me 2nd in that vid and I pull loads into redgate over than fully geo and tracked up BMW, I don't have to brake as hard and carry much higher corner speeds, then he stays with me when I bottle out, but my APex speeds are far higher than yours, even though you may have more skill than me to drive round an undsteering issue !
When I went in yours I felt like we were going to stop at the apex ! net result is you are working the rears way to much, I am working the front way to much. those are the facts I hoped we could all learn from, not squabble about skill sets or learning a craft !
Again in my Spyder I gain on a lot of GT3's into bends, I lean on the camber and it gets into the corner fast, I am not coming to a stop at the apex.
I am into tech, that's what I do, so for me to feel at one with the car I want it to be the best it can be, NOT drive round stupid issues, hence why in the after noon, my mate who pits for a race team came over and did my pyro's ect for me coming straight in hot.
And I can see the car not balanced right atm, you are the other way and starting to kill the outer of a rear.
What I will say is Chris and Jack hit the ABS in a big way, you can see and feel it trigger twice into every bend, once on brakes then a relapse then again once it slot back into gear, hence why I guess Chris needs new pads ! also both drive with ESC on.
My style is much much smoother, I never trigger ABS and I run ESC off my tyres are not squealing out of every bend either, My style is far more Like Tims (Ravon) another good driver and he pointed out Chris gun ho sprint style over his own endurance style.
we can all learn from each other, I was interested to go in yours and that's a great skill set to have, I'll never drive my own car that way, it's not how I drive and never will, well not in a mid engine car anyway ! But I'll take from it for sure in the bends I still have understeer issue with, it's a great skill.
Again I'll never drive like Chris as I won't push me or my car to that limit, again it's not me and i'll never drive as hard as that.
Chris is on the ABS limit, he is on the track limit, he is on the G limit, he is on all 4 tyres limits, there is no where to go, if he added -0.5 degree all round he would put in a faster lap, the car would still be as balanced as you add the same all round, net result he would be faster, it's that simple.
Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 9th June 09:33
here is my front left, just taken it, the major used tyre, on mine any way lol not driving from the rear :-) , it's fine, it's using more tyre than yours agree, but it's no where near like Chris's front left which I remember is a few mm more over than mine.
His SS was bold on the outter at Anglesey , remember I also did Anglesey on this tyre and that does kill the front left, the Spyder owner bent his tread blocks back on his P zero at Anglesey !!!
my tyres look fine, I used all the camber I have ;-)
His SS was bold on the outter at Anglesey , remember I also did Anglesey on this tyre and that does kill the front left, the Spyder owner bent his tread blocks back on his P zero at Anglesey !!!
my tyres look fine, I used all the camber I have ;-)
Porsche911R said:
I am hard ARB rear and correct it's too stiff and a bit bouncy out the bends, middle middle lets the car be more balanced and you can 4 wheel drift out the bends. ARB rear stiff also saw my car with much cooler rears than fronts, where Chris and Jacks car are more even front to rear.
If one has the skill, (I don't) you could power slide out the bends with this set up, but it needs more skill and balls than I have.
Harris likes to adjust the car on the throttle rather than the brake though and that set up allows that.
Yep - I also found med-med more balanced and neutral drift...but lap time was a tad off where I would have expected it to be...didn't have a reference point to determine conditions as compared to a previous outingIf one has the skill, (I don't) you could power slide out the bends with this set up, but it needs more skill and balls than I have.
Harris likes to adjust the car on the throttle rather than the brake though and that set up allows that.
Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 9th June 09:29
Porsche911R said:
here is my front left, just taken it, the major used tyre, on mine any way lol not driving from the rear :-) , it's fine, it's using more tyre than yours agree, but it's no where near like Chris's front left which I remember is a few mm more over than mine.
His SS was bold on the outter at Anglesey , remember I also did Anglesey on this tyre and that does kill the front left, the Spyder owner bent his tread blocks back on his P zero at Anglesey !!!
my tyres look fine, I used all the camber I have ;-)
What about the next tread block to the centre of the tyre? That is where we seem to find more wear for some reason. I suspect because the rim should ideally be wider for the 245 tyre width...His SS was bold on the outter at Anglesey , remember I also did Anglesey on this tyre and that does kill the front left, the Spyder owner bent his tread blocks back on his P zero at Anglesey !!!
my tyres look fine, I used all the camber I have ;-)
imo it is too soft middle at the back and just a tad too hard full stiff lol
Road car full stiff at the back 100%, it feels great :-).
Full Stiff might suit a pro driver more than me, as I said I am not intending to drift out of every bend with a bit of OP lock on.
but when it does you can drift it out nice, I did it a few times, not by choice, but my brain just did what it needed to do and drove it out looking like a hero.
if we had adjustable shocks with could play with the rebound at the rear and why I hate PASM crap, no fine tuning in modern GT cars :-(.
I have had instruction and all my instructors say, we cannot teach you any more atm, you need more confidence.
I even get comments how good I am with the brakes (no GT3 MC fitted here lol )
I asked chris to take my pit crew mate out in his, and he came back to me and said, your cars fine, you just need bigger balls lol
I am not sure why I lack the confidence these days, may be my age, maybe the price of my car, who knows but I do lack it a bit.
I do like the tech side of set up though and I am more than happy with my skill set at my level of about 2 track days a year.
I would love a set of 2 ways on my GT4 so I could just have it how I wanted, I did that with my Exige and loved it to bits.
3 ways goes over my head with slow and fast rebound, but a nice set of 2 ways would be spot on for me, I know what bump and rebound does and love to tinker.
Road car full stiff at the back 100%, it feels great :-).
Full Stiff might suit a pro driver more than me, as I said I am not intending to drift out of every bend with a bit of OP lock on.
but when it does you can drift it out nice, I did it a few times, not by choice, but my brain just did what it needed to do and drove it out looking like a hero.
if we had adjustable shocks with could play with the rebound at the rear and why I hate PASM crap, no fine tuning in modern GT cars :-(.
I have had instruction and all my instructors say, we cannot teach you any more atm, you need more confidence.
I even get comments how good I am with the brakes (no GT3 MC fitted here lol )
I asked chris to take my pit crew mate out in his, and he came back to me and said, your cars fine, you just need bigger balls lol
I am not sure why I lack the confidence these days, may be my age, maybe the price of my car, who knows but I do lack it a bit.
I do like the tech side of set up though and I am more than happy with my skill set at my level of about 2 track days a year.
I would love a set of 2 ways on my GT4 so I could just have it how I wanted, I did that with my Exige and loved it to bits.
3 ways goes over my head with slow and fast rebound, but a nice set of 2 ways would be spot on for me, I know what bump and rebound does and love to tinker.
boxsey said:
As a respite to the squabbling here's an edit I've done of the GT4s I saw on track at Donington:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz5aEy3htPg
Sorry it's mostly from a distance but I can't keep up with you boys (even if I had a GT4).
Thanks Boxey! Nice vid!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz5aEy3htPg
Sorry it's mostly from a distance but I can't keep up with you boys (even if I had a GT4).
David, I took away a lot from Monday. Mainly a big smile and huge amount of love for my car
None of us are racedrivers (well, ChrisW and Ravon are...) and we all fall short in areas. Like I said, at the moment I'm happy trying to fill my talent bag and the GT3 and GT4 have been perfect taskmasters. I've come a long way in a few short years, but realise I've got a long long way to go.
Still, very happy with results for only the second trackday in the car and only my second time ever at Donington.
The reasons I no longer race are because:
1. I wasn't really competitive
2. It was very expensive
3. There was quite a lot of imminent contact
4. Sometimes it terrified me ...
5. I lost enough time to do test days / take tuition / trailer / prepare / race / return / repair / and start again !
I drive for the fun of it, and the chatter and companionship ... and learning, and sharing.
Which is exactly what the GT4 and this forum is doing. There are no winners and losers ... merely shades of experience and sharing, so, I would say this is mission accomplished
1. I wasn't really competitive
2. It was very expensive
3. There was quite a lot of imminent contact
4. Sometimes it terrified me ...
5. I lost enough time to do test days / take tuition / trailer / prepare / race / return / repair / and start again !
I drive for the fun of it, and the chatter and companionship ... and learning, and sharing.
Which is exactly what the GT4 and this forum is doing. There are no winners and losers ... merely shades of experience and sharing, so, I would say this is mission accomplished
Porsche911R said:
Take at look at Boxesy vid, that's me 2nd in that vid and I pull loads into redgate over than fully geo and tracked up BMW, I don't have to brake as hard and carry much higher corner speeds, then he stays with me when I bottle out, but my APex speeds are far higher than yours, even though you may have more skill than me to drive round an undsteering issue !
Hello, that was me in the BMW following you. I thought we had a good run. Nice clean lines on a largely empty track in the afternoon. Car isn't fully tracked up, full interior still but decent suspension and brakes with cup tyres make a world of difference helping to rotate the car. Great driving Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 9th June 09:33
Have a vid of that run, so will put it online shortly.
Edited by Lasitha on Thursday 9th June 22:31
Porsche911R said:
Spyder owner bent his tread blocks back on his P zero at Anglesey !!!
Hi David - that was down to tyre pressure spiking and has recovered after the drive home. Last set of front zeros lasted roughly five or six track days and 5k miles - I'm not getting understeer despite less tyre width, less camber and less sticky rubber than the GT4. Still managing to keep up though
- I am however trail braking and loving the the movement in the back end!!Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff