Driving CarreraLightweightRacing's 996 'CLR' (briefly)

Driving CarreraLightweightRacing's 996 'CLR' (briefly)

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anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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[redacted]

9e 28

9,410 posts

200 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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I love the idea. RPM doing their own take on drivers 996 and 986 too. Not cheap mind. I'm not sure why you'd drop the PAS on a 996 - its steering has plenty of feel and feedback. Ultimately you's be slower without PAS too.

http://www.rpmtechnik.co.uk/sales/vehicle/996-csr/

http://www.rpmtechnik.co.uk/sales/vehicle/986-boxs...

For comparison that 996 RPM are selling is low mileage manual gen 2 997 C2s money which is one hell of a good car too. so whats the new 991 like?

Budflicker

3,799 posts

183 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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Nice write up again Moose, I've seen and heard this car in the flesh (it won the annual Dinslaken Porsche show sound off this year) and it's certainly a example of attention to detail.

It really couldn't be owned by a nicer chap either, carrealightweightracing is a real genuine Porsche enthusiast and gentlemen.



Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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[redacted]

Tripe Bypass

581 posts

202 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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Slippydiff said:
9e 28 said:
I'm not sure why you'd drop the PAS on a 996 - its steering has plenty of feel and feedback.
Weight.
I'm intrigued to know what internal modifications were done to the steering gear to change it from PAS to manual.

EGTE

996 posts

181 months

Sunday 26th June 2016
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Slippydiff said:
I doubt ANY aircooled RS owner would concur with that Jeremy. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, you really do need to get yourself behind the wheel of a nicely sorted, genuine, unmolested 964 RS (and not a rep) on road tyres, road geo, sensible ride heights, refreshed suspension, decattted, mapped, Cup pipe and a drilled airbox. I suspect you'll find all the sensory onslaught you're seeking along with tactility and engagement a plenty.


Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 26th June 21:58
A (slightly modded) 964 RS is not exactly an "average air-cooled" car, Slippy.

Can you not just accept that a 996 Carrera can be a damned good 911? Because many of us think it is.

Great write-up as ever, Jeremy.

The CLR build thread is definitely a huge hit with the 996 fans on 911uk.com

Whitean3

2,182 posts

197 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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Great write up as ever; I love this project, and think that it is fantastic that it still looks pretty much standard, even though a lot of weight has been removed. Will be interesting to see what further developments are made

lemmingjames

7,433 posts

203 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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How did it compare to the 996 GT3 you drove?

Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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EGTE said:
A (slightly modded) 964 RS is not exactly an "average air-cooled" car, Slippy.
I don't recall saying it was, but then again maybe my command of the English language isn't all it could be. I interpreted Jeremy's comment to mean the "average air cooled cork sniffer", not the owner of the average of air cooled car.

EGTE said:
Can you not just accept that a 996 Carrera can be a damned good 911? Because many of us think it is.
That comes across as you being a tad defensive if I may say so. I'm well aware of how good the 996 platform is, 4 996 GT3's, a 996 GT3 RS and 2 996 GT2's told me pretty much all I needed to know about them. I've driven several C2's over the years too. They are all wonderful cars, and if you've read my many posts on here, you'll realise I've spent a long time extolling the virtues of the 996 GT3 (as a raod car) over all the other iterations.


EGTE said:
The CLR build thread is definitely a huge hit with the 996 fans on 911uk.com
I know, I'd been following it for quite some time, and discussing it with Richard via email.

Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
I wasn't suggesting you'd said it was better than an RS smile Merely that after your review of Steve and IMIA's 964's you'd be well advised to try a nicely set up 964 RS, and that having done so I suspect you'd find the air-cooled sweetspot you appear to be seeking.

I (I suspect more than most) am looking forward to getting behind the wheel of Richard's creation, I think what he's building will make for superb road car. You'll be aware that I'm a fan of both the 996 GT cars AND the 964, and the end result of Richard's labours will provide the perfect blend of both platforms without the cost of either.

As for the steering weight on the CLR, I'd either stick the original (larger diameter) wheel back on and accept the weight penalty/complexity of it, or find a larger diameter aftermarket item. But additionally, trying to pilot a car with heavy (ish) steering from a standard Porsche "armchair" is never going to be ideal, but from the confines of a decent bucket seat (with the seat/steering wheel position optimised for the individual driving the car) it will seem far less onerous. smile




Steve Rance

5,435 posts

230 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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Nice. Good little busses and much meligned. Nicely resolved solution of a propper driving tool.

snotrag

14,446 posts

210 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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Very interesting.

I wonder how much of this applies to 986? As a new owner of a Boxster, this is the line I wish to go down.

I've already a good start point of a miley but solid, ultra-basic spec 2.7.

I've fitted coilovers, sorted the suspension and refurbed the Brembos with sport pads. Gearshift next on list.

Seats are the 'big ticket' item for making waves into the kerbweight and changing the driving feel, along with maybe a Momo wheel but the voice in my head says keep the airbag - maybe an alcantara retrim instead.

I like the CSR car linked above. Lightweight wheels would be great based on my past experiences, but of course they are magnitudes hard to find for a Porsche then a Japanese car.

SRT Hellcat

7,017 posts

216 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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excellent right up Mr Moose. Never heard of the 996 CLR project before

andy97

4,691 posts

221 months

Monday 27th June 2016
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Slippydiff said:
I doubt ANY aircooled RS owner would concur with that Jeremy. And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, you really do need to get yourself behind the wheel of a nicely sorted, genuine, unmolested 964 RS
And how much does one of those cost compared to a 996 CLR?

Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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andy97 said:
And how much does one of those cost compared to a 996 CLR?
Annnnd, another individual who's missed my point completely smile

hondansx

4,562 posts

224 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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I enjoyed the review, but it did get me thinking. The likes of Shmee have been ripped apart in a very long thread in the main gassing forum; my issue being that these vloggers praise anything they're in because negative comments would upset their gravy train, and frankly, they are not competent to give an actual 'review' anyway, so don't try.

Now, you come across very well, but I am left wondering if i could wield the same accusation? Did the heavy steering ruin the experience? It kind of sounded like it did, but you didn't want to say it. Same question to one of your other recent reviews with the suspension setup that need 'finalising'. If you drove a dreadful car and explained it as such, how would that impact these kind people slinging you the keys?

Moreover, are you capable giving a review? Genuine question. Appreciate that may very well come across as condescending, but hope you appreciate I have no idea who you are, or your driving credentials smile

braddo

10,399 posts

187 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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Slippydiff said:
Annnnd, another individual who's missed my point completely smile
I think there are a few people confused as to what it was (me included). smile

hondansx

4,562 posts

224 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
I did learn a while back that, when giving feedback, the perception of a balanced review depends on what side of the table you are. I think it was something like during an appraisal a ratio of 3:1 (positive comments to negative) would result in an appraisee to think it merely went OK.

Clearly i failed then, as despite saying you came across well and that i enjoyed the review, i recieved an undeserving answer wink Appreciate we're not in the pub with a pint, but i hope you can appreciate my 'accusation' is intended as light-hearted; it is a discussion forum after all.

I'll get back under my rock...

CarreraLightweightRacing

2,011 posts

208 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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Some very good questions smile

Firstly, this is currently an interim development stage, so no reflection of the final product. Perhaps more importantly though; this is my car and my aim is to build the perfect drivers 911 possible (in my eyes at least wink ). So I will leave no stones unturned in getting this right.
It has kind of morphed into a development platform now so there will still be lots of fine tuning. It was never the original intention for this be anything other than a one off and if my Mrs has her way it will stay that way hehe

There have been many ideas during this project that I have not mentioned and simply redesigned or shelved, as a realistic workable solution couldn’t be found. I have also completed numerous testing phases and found areas which I wasn’t happy with or failures, so again it was back to the drawing board.

Now in relation to the steering system; for me this is a critical system that needs to be absolutely right. When one considers feel, there are many factors to consider in how best to improve it or what it actually means. Your perception of feel will be somewhat different to the next man. For me, in the automotive sense, steering is the single most important factor of this feel equation; as such, to get this wrong would be abject failure. I looked and tested car’s that are considered up-there on the feedback front: the 964RS being the case in point regarding the steering. They weigh in at around 1230kg and come with no PAS. So I based my judgement on ditching the PAS on the fact that the 964RS manages this feat with aplomb. Now, ripping apart a perfectly good design for the sake of a few Kg’s would be a ridiculous thing to do in isolation but in combination with all the plans I have for the car and to meet the key objectives, it was imperative that I go this route.

The car currently weights 1240kg and effectively I have a steering rack which is grease lubricated now. At this current interim stage I am reluctant to change this as I believe once another 130kg or so is removed, in combination with the extremely light forged wheels I have planned, the steering will be bang-on. I also have the option of removing the rack and trying a fluid based lubricant to further reduce friction should it be required. All these considerations are a little way off just now though.

The other benefits of replacing the PAS system are as follows:
-Improved weight distribution (21.5kg mainly from rear of engine. This includes the A/C system).
-Simplified engine driven ancillary components.
-Improved air circulation/cooling and reduced heat soak.
-Improved access to engine – makes replacing knock sensors a 5min job as an example.
-Improves reliability (engine and steering).
-As already mentioned the ultimate in feedback and overall weight reduction being the key objectives.

Finding the most effective solution required quite a bit of redesign though:
-Alternator mount redesign.
-Idler pulley removed.
-New belt design and orientation.
-Redesign and manufacture tensioner pulley and bearing.
-Steering rack modified.
-Delete: PAS pump, reservoir, lines.


It's funny someone mentioned the impartiality in cmoose's line of business. When I was with him I asked him the same question over lunch. I can truly say in this case that Jeremy writes this exactly how he sees it. I want it to be a true reflection and I would be doing myself a disservice by trying to falsify or sway his judgement. He knows the car is only 50% complete and I'm happy for his appraisal or anyone else's for that matter, as we can all suffer from bias or blinkered ideas. For this reason I opened this up to a public forum from the start and have had one or two great ideas that I have incorporated into this project; the GT3RS Radiator set-up being one of recent ones.

My apologies for not being anywhere closer to finishing just yet but many thanks once again for your feedback and taking the time to pop over to try the car Jeremy. Hopefully in the not too distance future I can let you loose with the real McCoy and you can tell me that the steering is now too light wink

braddo

10,399 posts

187 months

Tuesday 28th June 2016
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Is castor the biggest factor in the steering getting really heavy in tight turns and if so is there much scope to reduce castor in the 996's front suspension?