Driving CarreraLightweightRacing's 996 'CLR' (briefly)
Discussion
Lovely project - the stock car in terms of looks on its turbo twists is already retro timeless and has a design purity rarely seen nowadays. I think the outlaw look suits air-cooled cars a bit more.
GT3 mk1 kit would certainly give it aggression but I like it how it was personally. Less is more....
CLR - Fantastic work 
cmoose - agree about the contrast being a grower and would be interested to see the effect with an aero-kit front, if not the sills as well. I think extending the colour right the way round might work but I can see the Martini influence in the current get up. Possibly scope for more experimentation in terms of colour / livery?
Also, that CSR, especially with the spats on the arches (who'd have thunk they might work - better than expected imo!) =
and I'm not the biggest fan of the 996 aero-kit (the duck tail and wheels / drop being a good way to improve it!). I remember seeing a Z3 with spats and BBS LMs and thinking, "noice" - was looking into some for the AW11, along side some nose vents a la 924 Carrera GTS....
CLR's reworking is special enough that I can see the need / urge to differentiate a little, even allowing for the pristine elegance of the "vanilla" narrow-hipped 996. It's just a much better resolved and cohesive design than Porsche was ever really given credit for, fried eggs included (imo)
One of the most exciting threads on PH (and there remains a high bar aside from the usual rambling dross churned out by butterfly brains including me!). Bravo.
cmoose - agree about the contrast being a grower and would be interested to see the effect with an aero-kit front, if not the sills as well. I think extending the colour right the way round might work but I can see the Martini influence in the current get up. Possibly scope for more experimentation in terms of colour / livery?
Also, that CSR, especially with the spats on the arches (who'd have thunk they might work - better than expected imo!) =
and I'm not the biggest fan of the 996 aero-kit (the duck tail and wheels / drop being a good way to improve it!). I remember seeing a Z3 with spats and BBS LMs and thinking, "noice" - was looking into some for the AW11, along side some nose vents a la 924 Carrera GTS....CLR's reworking is special enough that I can see the need / urge to differentiate a little, even allowing for the pristine elegance of the "vanilla" narrow-hipped 996. It's just a much better resolved and cohesive design than Porsche was ever really given credit for, fried eggs included (imo)
One of the most exciting threads on PH (and there remains a high bar aside from the usual rambling dross churned out by butterfly brains including me!). Bravo.
The earlier cars bumper line works better with colour IMO as the decals fall in line. The later water cooled cars have a bigger bumper area.
The ducktail works so well on your car.
As I said before I think you need PORSCHE side decals to tie the front and back together.
Perhaps someone can photoshop some options for you in different colours.
It would also be interesting to see the car with a set of solid black fuchs (rather than the petal effect) as I think that would work better.
But these are all superficial and can be changed relatively easily, it's a superb project, you must be very pleased!
Edited by g7jhp on Tuesday 4th April 22:17
It's a bit unfair to compare CLR to RPMs CSR. RPM car has had much more time and development for starters and is done as a commercial project. Most of the mods are similar in concept but CLR is a bit more single minded in terms of more bespoke parts where it counts (for me) and more aggressive weight loss. There are other people building their own cars in a similar vein but you jake don't read as widely about them and for sure most won't go to the extent of a self designed and made top mount.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
If I was really rude I would say nothing as the cynic would say most if not all the bits you can buy off the shelf. But they've put time in 'development' of the proposition and package. I say that as a cynic as I know how easy it is to buy some bits and have a go, change tweak and tweak again. Funky solid gearbox mounts, adjustable rear links with rod ends, solid adjustable top mounts etc etc I could write a shortened but comparable list for my own car. Give it a respectable name a website, some nice photos and somebody else could have a 3 letter acronym side line too 
But that does a dis-service to the time and trial and error sometimes involved. I think someone was on here forum had RPM CSR ? I do remember reading a mini review about it recently on a random topic. Always wondered what is the deal really, it does look exciting but on the engine department only important bits seem to be IMS, thermostat and deep sump for nearly 27k?
Umm lots of questions and thoughts!
Ok I'll start with the styling. It would appear many here are focusing heavy on the paintwork. For me personally I would have kept the car Silver but in order to perhaps take this development concept on and reproduce for others, I was advised to go a bit lairy and make it stand out. Overall I am quite happy with how the car looks. All aspects of the design, (different to the OEM 996), are all generally based on where Porsche has historically had some great ideas (Fuchs, Ducktail, Martini colour...). Style and visual appeal is something you can never get right for everybody. I embrace that and am happy to take criticism in all it's wonderful flavours
It would appear the pictures don't quite relay how the car really looks as it is a very deep red I have chosen whereas orange has been mentioned a few times. So I shall be bringing the car over to Blighty to make it's UK debut at 'Simply Porsche' Beaulieu in June. If you would like to have a closer look prior to this, I will be staying a few day in Essex before heading on down to Beaulieu so would be happy to show fellow enthusiast around the car
Someone mentioned about the carbon panels. These were all custom made to my spec. There are still the mirrors to come; these are a direct mould of original RUF mirrors which I am currently having made in Carbon.
CLR vs CSR.
I have perhaps not given the company name as much thought as I should have, you can blame Slippy for that
Due to my aviation background I was trying to think of incorporating an element of that into the company name but truth be told I think it is the car that matters and not what name she has. But it would appear having such a close resemblance in name, to RPM Technik's CSR, is drawing a comparison where none was intended. RPM are a great outfit and Ollie and Grieg are really top drawer professionals, so I have no desire to get levered sideways into a competition as for me, the cars are a million miles apart in concept, design and how they drive.
My sole intention with this project was to create the best possible driver's 911 fullstop. Yes, why a 996 I hear you cry. Well I have mentioned why on numerous occasions now and I and many other sense the wind is finally changing on this front. Just try one is the best way to understand the logic. Looking forward though I will also be producing the same for the 997.
In order to create the best you do of course have to evaluate what has already been tried and where success has been achieved, you'd be stupid to ignore it. But the extend of some of the ideas I've had, have never been tried before, so I was out on my own and having to make all the development mistakes and find solutions with no one to really turn to for guidance. If I take the suspension for instance. I have pushed the front hub out 26mm. In doing so it has massively altered the geometry for steering the car. I am not talking about a simple re-geo here. I mean I had to redesign all arms and change mounting points in order for full articulation about certain points to work in conjunction with the various changes. This was not easy and for instance the front drop-link upper attachment point (which also secures the strut to the hub) was redesigned 3 times. All the panels are custom carbon fibre, the exhaust involved custom alloy moulds and autoclave carbon painted in tri-colour prior to top coat. Custom seat rails to fit the individual driver, my car is also over 200kg lighter than a CSR, PAS conversion with all the associated hardware design... I really have looked at every possible way to make this car as good a driver's 911 it could be. 50kg removed from the engine alone has made a massive difference not only to how it now revs but to weight distribution, CofG, cooling, ease of future service and many other benefits that were consequential to the main stated aim.
The car is now entering the final stages and I have been lucky enough to test-drive it over the last 2 days. It is shocking! I expected certain aspects but the overall experience is something that will take me sometime to really get my head around. It really isn't a car you can just jump in and master, everything the car does is down to you in a way I have never experienced before. I say that as an owner of a GT3RS that is as scary as you could imagine. Besides I'll leave the scribing to those that know what they are doing, as it really isn't for me to say how my child is the best as it proves nothing
cmoose stop cowering in the corner, put on your finest pair of brown underpants and take one pace forward
Ok I'll start with the styling. It would appear many here are focusing heavy on the paintwork. For me personally I would have kept the car Silver but in order to perhaps take this development concept on and reproduce for others, I was advised to go a bit lairy and make it stand out. Overall I am quite happy with how the car looks. All aspects of the design, (different to the OEM 996), are all generally based on where Porsche has historically had some great ideas (Fuchs, Ducktail, Martini colour...). Style and visual appeal is something you can never get right for everybody. I embrace that and am happy to take criticism in all it's wonderful flavours
It would appear the pictures don't quite relay how the car really looks as it is a very deep red I have chosen whereas orange has been mentioned a few times. So I shall be bringing the car over to Blighty to make it's UK debut at 'Simply Porsche' Beaulieu in June. If you would like to have a closer look prior to this, I will be staying a few day in Essex before heading on down to Beaulieu so would be happy to show fellow enthusiast around the car
Someone mentioned about the carbon panels. These were all custom made to my spec. There are still the mirrors to come; these are a direct mould of original RUF mirrors which I am currently having made in Carbon.
CLR vs CSR.
I have perhaps not given the company name as much thought as I should have, you can blame Slippy for that
Due to my aviation background I was trying to think of incorporating an element of that into the company name but truth be told I think it is the car that matters and not what name she has. But it would appear having such a close resemblance in name, to RPM Technik's CSR, is drawing a comparison where none was intended. RPM are a great outfit and Ollie and Grieg are really top drawer professionals, so I have no desire to get levered sideways into a competition as for me, the cars are a million miles apart in concept, design and how they drive.
My sole intention with this project was to create the best possible driver's 911 fullstop. Yes, why a 996 I hear you cry. Well I have mentioned why on numerous occasions now and I and many other sense the wind is finally changing on this front. Just try one is the best way to understand the logic. Looking forward though I will also be producing the same for the 997.
In order to create the best you do of course have to evaluate what has already been tried and where success has been achieved, you'd be stupid to ignore it. But the extend of some of the ideas I've had, have never been tried before, so I was out on my own and having to make all the development mistakes and find solutions with no one to really turn to for guidance. If I take the suspension for instance. I have pushed the front hub out 26mm. In doing so it has massively altered the geometry for steering the car. I am not talking about a simple re-geo here. I mean I had to redesign all arms and change mounting points in order for full articulation about certain points to work in conjunction with the various changes. This was not easy and for instance the front drop-link upper attachment point (which also secures the strut to the hub) was redesigned 3 times. All the panels are custom carbon fibre, the exhaust involved custom alloy moulds and autoclave carbon painted in tri-colour prior to top coat. Custom seat rails to fit the individual driver, my car is also over 200kg lighter than a CSR, PAS conversion with all the associated hardware design... I really have looked at every possible way to make this car as good a driver's 911 it could be. 50kg removed from the engine alone has made a massive difference not only to how it now revs but to weight distribution, CofG, cooling, ease of future service and many other benefits that were consequential to the main stated aim.
The car is now entering the final stages and I have been lucky enough to test-drive it over the last 2 days. It is shocking! I expected certain aspects but the overall experience is something that will take me sometime to really get my head around. It really isn't a car you can just jump in and master, everything the car does is down to you in a way I have never experienced before. I say that as an owner of a GT3RS that is as scary as you could imagine. Besides I'll leave the scribing to those that know what they are doing, as it really isn't for me to say how my child is the best as it proves nothing
cmoose stop cowering in the corner, put on your finest pair of brown underpants and take one pace forward
Stunning!
It shows that whenever there is will and in-depth knowledge, great product is the most likely outcome.
Makes me want to take the butcher's knife to my heavily modified 996.1 GT3 CS and improve it further.
Quick question on the subject of CF doors - how are you getting them TUV approved without proper side impact protection? The rest of the CF body work is non structural, so it matters little, but personally I would not be comfortable in a car with CF doors and no cage with side-impact beams.
Please forgive me if you have already covered the above.
It shows that whenever there is will and in-depth knowledge, great product is the most likely outcome.
Makes me want to take the butcher's knife to my heavily modified 996.1 GT3 CS and improve it further.
Quick question on the subject of CF doors - how are you getting them TUV approved without proper side impact protection? The rest of the CF body work is non structural, so it matters little, but personally I would not be comfortable in a car with CF doors and no cage with side-impact beams.
Please forgive me if you have already covered the above.
Cheburator mk2 said:
Stunning!
It shows that whenever there is will and in-depth knowledge, great product is the most likely outcome.
Makes me want to take the butcher's knife to my heavily modified 996.1 GT3 CS and improve it further.
Quick question on the subject of CF doors - how are you getting them TUV approved without proper side impact protection? The rest of the CF body work is non structural, so it matters little, but personally I would not be comfortable in a car with CF doors and no cage with side-impact beams.
Please forgive me if you have already covered the above.
Thanks Cheburator It shows that whenever there is will and in-depth knowledge, great product is the most likely outcome.
Makes me want to take the butcher's knife to my heavily modified 996.1 GT3 CS and improve it further.
Quick question on the subject of CF doors - how are you getting them TUV approved without proper side impact protection? The rest of the CF body work is non structural, so it matters little, but personally I would not be comfortable in a car with CF doors and no cage with side-impact beams.
Please forgive me if you have already covered the above.
Originally I planned on fitting the door beams but later into production I found out they were not legally required for TUV. They are however a requirement in The USA. It really isn't a big deal either way as the stock ones simply unbolt (2 bolts) or I could have carbon/Kevlar beams made if one really wanted to go down this road. They are a 5 minute swap and my doors have been made with having these braces in mind, if one so wished. If you saw the OEM ones though, you would very quickly realise they are next to useless, made from very thin pressed steel. If you were relying on these to save you, your trust is misplaced. A cage is a different matter altogether. They weight a ton and will no doubt go some way to creating a safer occupant crash protection cell.
If you were in an accident where the sills and SIPS were called into question, I don't think it matters greatly; you are having a bad day regardless. Motorbikes do not have them, most cars pre-70's don't have them, I really don't feel the need personally. We all take risks everyday. My own personal risk assessment and probability calculations have been made and I am not overly concerned.
Onto perhaps more interesting matters, I did a little acceleration test this morning. This was a bit spontaneous and not planned at all, so you will have to forgive the TC kicking in slowing down proceeding between first and second, also doing all this one handed is less than ideal, but it should give some indication as to current straight line performance. This is still running the base OEM map and it was a very gentle launch (mechanical sympathy/or me being a big Jessie, the choice is yours):
video
Edited by CarreraLightweightRacing on Wednesday 5th April 18:24
cmoose! 
Don't really think RPM's special should be even compared to this excellent creation, however.. The RPM car looks good, this one doesn't.
Different coloured bumpers looks terrible, I can't say I like Fuchs on any cars built after 1989 and exposed carbon is a bit last year. I would seriously reconsider this, and give some thoughts to 'areo-kitting' it or other ways in giving it some subtle aggression.
IMHO
Different coloured bumpers looks terrible, I can't say I like Fuchs on any cars built after 1989 and exposed carbon is a bit last year. I would seriously reconsider this, and give some thoughts to 'areo-kitting' it or other ways in giving it some subtle aggression.
IMHO
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
For me personally I would have kept the car Silver but in order to perhaps take this development concept on and reproduce for others, I was advised to go a bit lairy and make it stand out.
I think that's a fair point. Engage interest and customers can always have painted roof and bumpers to match the rest of the car. I wouldn't be going for GT3 bumper or aero kit - a bit too 90s. But that's just my taste - I like standard bodywork, lowered suspension and nice wheels. And then all the awesome CLR stuff underneath. Did your changes to the front geometry have anything to do with removing the power steering?
fredt said:
Don't really think RPM's special should be even compared to this excellent creation, however.. The RPM car looks good, this one doesn't.
Different coloured bumpers looks terrible, I can't say I like Fuchs on any cars built after 1989 and exposed carbon is a bit last year. I would seriously reconsider this, and give some thoughts to 'areo-kitting' it or other ways in giving it some subtle aggression.
IMHO
Thanks for taking the time to add your thoughts Different coloured bumpers looks terrible, I can't say I like Fuchs on any cars built after 1989 and exposed carbon is a bit last year. I would seriously reconsider this, and give some thoughts to 'areo-kitting' it or other ways in giving it some subtle aggression.
IMHO
I know it's an old cliché fredt, but there is possibly an element of my photography skills being non-existent making your eyes bleed
I can only recommend seeing the car in the flesh to see how it works. My aim was not to simply copy what has been done by others. To the best of my knowledge nobody has done the contrast bumper thing on a 996. Also this connecting front to rear with strips: I have gone about this in another way deliberately, the red is very bold and the bumper lines wouldn't suit a Porsche side strip. I decided to continue this red theme with a delicate touch of red running over the roof. It doesn't follow conventional wisdom, nor is it meant to and this idea continues with almost every aspect of this car.
Wheels were a difficult choice. Fuchs would not be my first choice style wise, but they fit in with a nod Porsche heritage, and they are very light (which is more importantly why they have been chosen). They are also TUV approved.
I am not keen on the aerokit and with the various geometry changes I've made, it would only last 5 minutes on the road; scraping al the time. Again though a personal choice thing which you happen to prefer. Also this car is not a GT3 and I feel the softer flowing lines of standard Carrera, work perfectly in unison with the monster that lies under the skin of a CLR; a bit of yin and yang if you like
braddo said:
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
For me personally I would have kept the car Silver but in order to perhaps take this development concept on and reproduce for others, I was advised to go a bit lairy and make it stand out.
I think that's a fair point. Engage interest and customers can always have painted roof and bumpers to match the rest of the car. I wouldn't be going for GT3 bumper or aero kit - a bit too 90s. But that's just my taste - I like standard bodywork, lowered suspension and nice wheels. And then all the awesome CLR stuff underneath. Did your changes to the front geometry have anything to do with removing the power steering?
I think I answered most of the visual questions above. The parts I have contrast painted can easily be changed if I ever feel the need. Had I changed the complete colour and not liked it, it would have been a PITA to rectify.
Geometry changes were twofold. The front hubs are now 26mm outboard from stock and the rears 18mm. Fuchs have for the last year had an issue with their wheel production which continues to this day. This has caused me a massive headache. I should have been using a different wheel for the front which would have only meant an 11mm hub movement. So with the hub placement now altered the torsional forces induced by the ARB now being completely out of place, were not compatible with a car running no PAS. This basically meant I had to calculate the full range of movement of the hub in relation to the ARB and then redesign the Hub-to-drop link attachment point and the drop-link itself. The drop link is now 80mm longer, it has more articulation about the upper joint (which is now also set 17mm aft. The lower joint has also been moved outboard 10mm.
The steering weight was seriously loading up before as steering angle was increased; as cmoose describes in the first post. This is now no longer the case and the remedy is what I have described above. The steering is now bloody lovely. The rear was also completely redesigned but it was a far easier affair. In total I think over 230 parts make up the new suspension design with the only parts remaining standard being the hubs themselves.
Here are a few pictures of the final solution for the front. All looks pretty simply now but calculating how to get to this point and trying to figure out what was causing the problem in the first place was not so simple:
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
Geometry changes were twofold. The front hubs are now 26mm outboard from stock and the rears 18mm. Fuchs have for the last year had an issue with their wheel production which continues to this day. This has caused me a massive headache. I should have been using a different wheel for the front which would have only meant an 11mm hub movement. So with the hub placement now altered the torsional forces induced by the ARB now being completely out of place, were not compatible with a car running no PAS. This basically meant I had to calculate the full range of movement of the hub in relation to the ARB and then redesign the Hub-to-drop link attachment point and the drop-link itself. The drop link is now 80mm longer, it has more articulation about the upper joint (which is now also set 17mm aft. The lower joint has also been moved outboard 10mm.
The steering weight was seriously loading up before as steering angle was increased; as cmoose describes in the first post. This is now no longer the case and the remedy is what I have described above. The steering is now bloody lovely. The rear was also completely redesigned but it was a far easier affair. In total I think over 230 parts make up the new suspension design with the only parts remaining standard being the hubs themselves.
Here are a few pictures of the final solution for the front. All looks pretty simply now but calculating how to get to this point and trying to figure out what was causing the problem in the first place was not so simple:
I'm not an engineer, so a quick skim read at lunch, The steering weight was seriously loading up before as steering angle was increased; as cmoose describes in the first post. This is now no longer the case and the remedy is what I have described above. The steering is now bloody lovely. The rear was also completely redesigned but it was a far easier affair. In total I think over 230 parts make up the new suspension design with the only parts remaining standard being the hubs themselves.
Here are a few pictures of the final solution for the front. All looks pretty simply now but calculating how to get to this point and trying to figure out what was causing the problem in the first place was not so simple:
, have another read this eve, 
... I'll never understand the calcs underlying the work but I find it really fascinating how seemingly small changes to suspension geometry can yield wildly different results. So the ARB influences how much the steering loads up in corners. That sounds obvious reading it back but I've not thought about it before. Big castor and body roll pull the ARB into work, which then acts to pull the wheels straight (hence steering weight loading up dramatically)? But somehow, changing the drop links fixes it.How the f
k does one figure stuff like this out. 
It certainly highlights to me how far removed from and more evolved than anything else out there your CLR is.
braddo said:
I'm not an engineer, so a quick skim read at lunch, , have another read this eve, ... I'll never understand the calcs underlying the work but I find it really fascinating how seemingly small changes to suspension geometry can yield wildly different results. So the ARB influences how much the steering loads up in corners. That sounds obvious reading it back but I've not thought about it before. Big castor and body roll pull the ARB into work, which then acts to pull the wheels straight (hence steering weight loading up dramatically)? But somehow, changing the drop links fixes it.
How the fk does one figure stuff like this out.
It certainly highlights to me how far removed from and more evolved than anything else out there your CLR is.
Thanks for saving me the typing braddo , have another read this eve, ... I'll never understand the calcs underlying the work but I find it really fascinating how seemingly small changes to suspension geometry can yield wildly different results. So the ARB influences how much the steering loads up in corners. That sounds obvious reading it back but I've not thought about it before. Big castor and body roll pull the ARB into work, which then acts to pull the wheels straight (hence steering weight loading up dramatically)? But somehow, changing the drop links fixes it.How the f
k does one figure stuff like this out. It certainly highlights to me how far removed from and more evolved than anything else out there your CLR is.
Diesel Meister said:
braddo said:
I'm not an engineer, so a quick skim read at lunch, , have another read this eve, ... I'll never understand the calcs underlying the work but I find it really fascinating how seemingly small changes to suspension geometry can yield wildly different results. So the ARB influences how much the steering loads up in corners. That sounds obvious reading it back but I've not thought about it before. Big castor and body roll pull the ARB into work, which then acts to pull the wheels straight (hence steering weight loading up dramatically)? But somehow, changing the drop links fixes it.
How the fk does one figure stuff like this out.
It certainly highlights to me how far removed from and more evolved than anything else out there your CLR is.
Thanks for saving me the typing braddo , have another read this eve, ... I'll never understand the calcs underlying the work but I find it really fascinating how seemingly small changes to suspension geometry can yield wildly different results. So the ARB influences how much the steering loads up in corners. That sounds obvious reading it back but I've not thought about it before. Big castor and body roll pull the ARB into work, which then acts to pull the wheels straight (hence steering weight loading up dramatically)? But somehow, changing the drop links fixes it.How the f
k does one figure stuff like this out. It certainly highlights to me how far removed from and more evolved than anything else out there your CLR is.
None-the-less, it was fascinating that something so mundane for us, mere mortals, such as a front axle assembly can prompt people to write books and even more - people to read them in detail...
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