New 991 R review
Discussion
footsoldier said:
500bhp on the right road, in an R, will be fantastic. You just have to be able to see where you are going, what's coming, and be brave enough to live with the consequences of a speed trap. Even with all that, you'll still be off the limit.
Like the 991RS, it's at the limit, on track, that any lack of purity becomes apparent, ABS, RWS, all the other TLAs kick in if you want to 100% max out, and you won't go as fast as possible without using them, not just ignoring them.
As a modern road car, it's awesome, IMO. If you want a race car or an old school raw, relatively underpowered machine, then go elsewhere. They are all different and have different strengths and purposes.
All true, but here's plenty of individuals on here who are or were running 996 & 997 Turbo's and GT2's/RS's, the majority will be running power figures in excess of 500hp, all running torque figures that make the R look positively asthmatic. All are "old school" (especially the 996 GT2), few would be considered "relatively underpowered".Like the 991RS, it's at the limit, on track, that any lack of purity becomes apparent, ABS, RWS, all the other TLAs kick in if you want to 100% max out, and you won't go as fast as possible without using them, not just ignoring them.
As a modern road car, it's awesome, IMO. If you want a race car or an old school raw, relatively underpowered machine, then go elsewhere. They are all different and have different strengths and purposes.
They may may not be the newest, shiniest toy on the block, but in no way are they a lesser car to the 991R.
footsoldier said:
If you want a race car or an old school raw, relatively underpowered machine, then go elsewhere. They are all different and have different strengths and purposes.
And I'm suggesting you can have an old school chassis without a plethora of drivers aids, and have modern day performance all in one package, though whether you can actually use all that performance on the road safely, remains a moot point 
Slippydiff said:
We agree on something, you're not going to really enjoy properly wringing the neck of 991 R on the road in the UK, barring some choice roads in Scotland and N.Wales. As for the R being hardcore, you clearly have a very different threshold than most for what construes hardcore.
As for your comments about steering feel and weight, you've fallen into the age old trap of mistaking weight for feel. But you've also committed the cardinal sin of berating 911 steering feel.
It's impossible to establish from your post whether you're referring to the steering weight/feel of 991's, or whether you're suggesting there's never been a 911 built which had steering as feelsome and weighty as that of the Cayman R. If it's the latter, you're a bigger idiot than most give you credit for.
Just my opinion, that does not make me an idiot ;-)As for your comments about steering feel and weight, you've fallen into the age old trap of mistaking weight for feel. But you've also committed the cardinal sin of berating 911 steering feel.
It's impossible to establish from your post whether you're referring to the steering weight/feel of 991's, or whether you're suggesting there's never been a 911 built which had steering as feelsome and weighty as that of the Cayman R. If it's the latter, you're a bigger idiot than most give you credit for.
yes the GT3 996/997 has feel but it also has less weight over the front than the Cayman R and that added weight gives you more feel imo, esp in the wet.
I think people fall in the age old trap of the GT3 having a very stiff ARB and that make's the steering wheel move a lot in their hands and they call that feel.
It may feel exciting/alive having the wheel moving about a lot but that's not real feel that's just net result from a stiff ARB and when 1 wheel hits a rut the ARB transfers that energy to the other wheel and you get a lot of steering wheel movement. People seem to call that feel !!! or feedback ! when really it's just a mess, and the faster you go the worse it gets on bumpy roads, again that fighting with the wheel people seem to call feedback !!! but it's false !
The mid engine platform with the extra weight over the nose gives you more REAL feel, so yes weight is more but the net result of added weight like that is more feel as the 2 systems both 997 and 987 cars use are on the same !!!
My R wheel moves about with a much softer ARB than the GT3 so I know more what my wheels are doing independent of each other to a better degree than a GT3.
The Cayman R imo wins over the 997 GT3 in the steering dept but that's just imo.
And as for any later cars when these mag reviews of the GT4 , GTS and now the 911R state steeing is great is shocking , esp Harris, on the one hand he said the 911R had perfect steering, but In the same vid he stated the Aston have better steering feel !!! All new EPS systems still feel poor to me I doubt the 991 R has move the game on much over the GT4 in that dept. Again the wet shows this up more, as in the dry these systems are now passable.
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 28th September 10:21
Porsche911R said:
Just my opinion, that does not make me an idiot ;-)
yes the GT3 996/997 has feel but it also has less weight over the front than the Cayman R and that added weight gives you more feel imo, esp in the wet.
I think people fall in the age old trap of the GT3 having a very stiff ARB and that make's the steering wheel move a lot in their hands and they call that feel.
It may feel exciting/alive having the wheel moving about a lot but that's not real feel that's just net result from a stiff ARB and when 1 wheel hits a rut the ARB transfers that energy to the other wheel and you get a lot of steering wheel movement. People seem to call that feel !!! or feedback ! when really it's just a mess, and the faster you go the worse it gets on bumpy roads, again that fighting with the wheel people seem to call feedback !!! but it's false !
The mid engine platform with the extra weight over the nose gives you more REAL feel, so yes weight is more but the net result of added weight like that is more feel as the 2 systems both 997 and 987 cars use are on the same !!!
My R wheel moves about with a much softer ARB than the GT3 so I know more what my wheels are doing independent of each other to a better degree than a GT3.
The Cayman R imo wins over the 997 GT3 in the steering dept but that's just imo.
And as for any later cars when these mag reviews of the GT4 , GTS and now the 911R state steeing is great is shocking , esp Harris, on the one hand he said the 911R had perfect steering, but In the same vid he stated the Aston have better steering feel !!! All new EPS systems still feel poor to me I doubt the 991 R has move the game on much over the GT4 in that dept. Again the wet shows this up more, as in the dry these systems are now passable.
I actually think the 991 RS steering is excellent in both feel and weighting, noticeably different from the GT4, and controversially I'm sure, I think I prefer it to the 997 GT3 steering !!yes the GT3 996/997 has feel but it also has less weight over the front than the Cayman R and that added weight gives you more feel imo, esp in the wet.
I think people fall in the age old trap of the GT3 having a very stiff ARB and that make's the steering wheel move a lot in their hands and they call that feel.
It may feel exciting/alive having the wheel moving about a lot but that's not real feel that's just net result from a stiff ARB and when 1 wheel hits a rut the ARB transfers that energy to the other wheel and you get a lot of steering wheel movement. People seem to call that feel !!! or feedback ! when really it's just a mess, and the faster you go the worse it gets on bumpy roads, again that fighting with the wheel people seem to call feedback !!! but it's false !
The mid engine platform with the extra weight over the nose gives you more REAL feel, so yes weight is more but the net result of added weight like that is more feel as the 2 systems both 997 and 987 cars use are on the same !!!
My R wheel moves about with a much softer ARB than the GT3 so I know more what my wheels are doing independent of each other to a better degree than a GT3.
The Cayman R imo wins over the 997 GT3 in the steering dept but that's just imo.
And as for any later cars when these mag reviews of the GT4 , GTS and now the 911R state steeing is great is shocking , esp Harris, on the one hand he said the 911R had perfect steering, but In the same vid he stated the Aston have better steering feel !!! All new EPS systems still feel poor to me I doubt the 991 R has move the game on much over the GT4 in that dept. Again the wet shows this up more, as in the dry these systems are now passable.
Edited by Porsche911R on Wednesday 28th September 10:21
To be clear it's only the assistance that's electric is it not ??
As I said the EPS is quite good now, you have to go on wet roads to then feel the short comings as in the dry it does what it needs to do and you get used to it. only when you get back in the older cars you think, mm this is how it should be.
It's come a nice way on from the early 981 boxsters.
You do loose that alive feeling which I slated on the GT3 though as the wheel does not move at all over bumps, again as I said it's a fine line.
I think my Noble 3r has had the best steering even over the Lotus cars.
It's come a nice way on from the early 981 boxsters.
You do loose that alive feeling which I slated on the GT3 though as the wheel does not move at all over bumps, again as I said it's a fine line.
I think my Noble 3r has had the best steering even over the Lotus cars.
Porsche911R said:
Just my opinion, that does not make me an idiot ;-)
yes the GT3 996/997 has feel but it also has less weight over the front than the Cayman R and that added weight gives you more feel imo, esp in the wet.
I think people fall in the age old trap of the GT3 having a very stiff ARB and that make's the steering wheel move a lot in their hands and they call that feel.
It may feel exciting/alive having the wheel moving about a lot but that's not real feel that's just net result from a stiff ARB and when 1 wheel hits a rut the ARB transfers that energy to the other wheel and you get a lot of steering wheel movement. People seem to call that feel !!! or feedback ! when really it's just a mess, and the faster you go the worse it gets on bumpy roads, again that fighting with the wheel people seem to call feedback !!! but it's false !
The mid engine platform with the extra weight over the nose gives you more REAL feel, so yes weight is more but the net result of added weight like that is more feel as the 2 systems both 997 and 987 cars use are on the same !!!
My R wheel moves about with a much softer ARB than the GT3 so I know more what my wheels are doing independent of each other to a better degree than a GT3.
The Cayman R imo wins over the 997 GT3 in the steering dept but that's just imo.
And as for any later cars when these mag reviews of the GT4 , GTS and now the 911R state steeing is great is shocking , esp Harris, on the one hand he said the 911R had perfect steering, but In the same vid he stated the Aston have better steering feel !!! All new EPS systems still feel poor to me I doubt the 991 R has move the game on much over the GT4 in that dept. Again the wet shows this up more, as in the dry these systems are now passable.
Steering feel, feedback and weight are subjective.yes the GT3 996/997 has feel but it also has less weight over the front than the Cayman R and that added weight gives you more feel imo, esp in the wet.
I think people fall in the age old trap of the GT3 having a very stiff ARB and that make's the steering wheel move a lot in their hands and they call that feel.
It may feel exciting/alive having the wheel moving about a lot but that's not real feel that's just net result from a stiff ARB and when 1 wheel hits a rut the ARB transfers that energy to the other wheel and you get a lot of steering wheel movement. People seem to call that feel !!! or feedback ! when really it's just a mess, and the faster you go the worse it gets on bumpy roads, again that fighting with the wheel people seem to call feedback !!! but it's false !
The mid engine platform with the extra weight over the nose gives you more REAL feel, so yes weight is more but the net result of added weight like that is more feel as the 2 systems both 997 and 987 cars use are on the same !!!
My R wheel moves about with a much softer ARB than the GT3 so I know more what my wheels are doing independent of each other to a better degree than a GT3.
The Cayman R imo wins over the 997 GT3 in the steering dept but that's just imo.
And as for any later cars when these mag reviews of the GT4 , GTS and now the 911R state steeing is great is shocking , esp Harris, on the one hand he said the 911R had perfect steering, but In the same vid he stated the Aston have better steering feel !!! All new EPS systems still feel poor to me I doubt the 991 R has move the game on much over the GT4 in that dept. Again the wet shows this up more, as in the dry these systems are now passable.
As a former CSL owner you'll know it's steering was light (lighter than any watercooled 911), plenty complained it lacked feel, I maintain it did not, merely that one needed to recalibrate ones senses, then all the feel and feedback you needed to drive it incredibly quickly was available at your fingertips.
As ever it's different strokes for different folks, you dislike understeer, and therefore apply your binary thinking and assume everyone else does too. The reality of the matter is that a massive part of driving any pre 997 911 quickly on the road requires a degree of weight transfer/management to nullify the understeer, it's a "flaw", along with others, that made the 911 the challenging car to drive quickly it once was.
Take these three videos, the first a 911 GT3RS being driven by an individual of questionable ability along the San Bernadino Pass :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNUUx1IvVw4
Note the way he barrels into uphill hairpins (not sure he's got the hang of using a steering wheel judging by how knotted up his arms get...) with nary a care in the world about understeer, the front end just digs in and bites, and as the bends tighten he just piles on more lock, in short there is minimal tyre scrub. Driving it is akin to a computer game.
Now check out these two videos, both race cars being driven by talented individuals. They are, I grant you, extreme examples of just how large the "disconnect" between the front tyres and the road surface on a pre 997 911 can be :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CvDD8V9Liq8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73MvmT5C-ik
That light, bobbing, fidgety front end is what I love about the 911, whilst for you it's something to abhor. That doesn't make it cr*p, hopeless or slow, it merely makes it a challenge to drive quickly. You're right, it is steering "noise", and no, it's not a necessity, but without it you end up with dull inert steering as seen in the majority of modern cars (especially those with EPAS).
You comments about anti roll bars causing a fidgety front end are as interesting as they are perplexing. I'm not sure if you ran your MK 2 996 GT3 with the front bar at full stiffness ? But if you did, that would explain why you found the already too stiff (only IMO) dampers and springs of the Mk2 too lively and the chassis understeery.
A well set up Mk 1 with it's softer springs and dampers and the front bar set to the middle, is not the fidgety, camber following, darty handful you allude to, on the contrary it's a stable, driveable car with weighty steering that writhes gently (and in a nicely damped manner) in your hands. It becomes even more pleasant to use if you can have the faith to let the wheel move about in your hands, rather than hold it in a "death grip".
Car manufacturers, seeing the backlash against their latest, greatest innovation (EPAS) and stung by the criticism of it, thought "How can we improve it ?" Some bright spark at BMW thought "Let's give the driver a button that enables him to make the steering feel sporty".
And his idea of "sporty" ? to add additional weight. But as I've said before, extra weight isn't the same as extra feel or feedback. That heavier steering doesn't relay ANY additional information or feedback back to you the driver, it just means you have to apply more effort to turn the steering wheel.
Porsche rightly or wrongly have deemed their former steering "noise" unnecessary, and in the process further engineered the 911'ness out of the 911.
But it has to be said that judging by the ever lengthening queue of monied individuals beating a path to purchase Stuttgart's latest GT/R products, I'm in the minority in this, and that undefinable 911 character is now all but lost, a thing of the past and missed by few apart from sandal wearing beardies such as myself ....
I am in the camp of steering feel being overrated, or at least it's importance is over exaggerated. I think it is a very good point raised that any 'noise' is regarded as a positive thing. I love Lotuses on track, but frankly i found the Elise a real chore on the road. I also had the aforementioned M3 CSL with its 'light' steering and found it the world's easiest car to drift.
Ultimately you need as much feel to understand what's going on - a good seating position is as important as steering feel in my book. I appreciate people like to feel connected, but for me the snobbery over steering feel has become hyperbolic.
Ultimately you need as much feel to understand what's going on - a good seating position is as important as steering feel in my book. I appreciate people like to feel connected, but for me the snobbery over steering feel has become hyperbolic.
Edited by hondansx on Thursday 29th September 11:07
hondansx said:
I am in the camp of steering feel being overrated, or at least it's importance is over exaggerated. I think it is a very good point raised that any 'noise' is regarded as a positive thing. I love Lotuses on track, but frankly i found the Elise a real chore on the road. I also had the aforementioned M3 CSL with its 'light' steering and found it the world's easiest car to drift.
But does that not prove my point ? The CSL's steering was for many overly light, but despite that it retained all the feel you needed to be able drift it and/or pedal it fast. Sure it didn't have all the noise of any 911, but there was noise there AND feel.hondansx said:
Ultimately you need as much feel to understand what's going on - a good seating position is as important as steering feel in my book. I appreciate people like to feel connected, but for me the snobbery over steering feel has become hyperbole
I don't think it's snobbery ? If I took your car and stuck multiple tired rubber doughnuts into the steering column, then gave you an overly large diameter steering wheel with a thickly padded rim covered in soft squishy plastic, I suspect you'd be the first to complain your car now lacked decent steering feel ! ! It's no different to differing gearshift weights/travel, lots wax lyrical over the fitment of a quickshift to their cars, personally I think the vast majority are the work of the devil and make changing gear a chore.
As for a good seating position being crucial, I agree, but also tend to think a decent, supportive seat just as critical, if not more so.
Slippydiff said:
Steering feel, feedback and weight are subjective.
As a former CSL owner you'll know it's steering was light (lighter than any watercooled 911), plenty complained it lacked feel, I maintain it did not, merely that one needed to recalibrate ones senses, then all the feel and feedback you needed to drive it incredibly quickly was available at your fingertips.
As ever it's different strokes for different folks, you dislike understeer, and therefore apply your binary thinking and assume everyone else does too. The reality of the matter is that a massive part of driving any pre 997 911 quickly on the road requires a degree of weight transfer/management to nullify the understeer, it's a "flaw", along with others, that made the 911 the challenging car to drive quickly it once was.
Take these three videos, the first a 911 GT3RS being driven by an individual of questionable ability along the San Bernadino Pass :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNUUx1IvVw4
Note the way he barrels into uphill hairpins (not sure he's got the hang of using a steering wheel judging by how knotted up his arms get...) with nary a care in the world about understeer, the front end just digs in and bites, and as the bends tighten he just piles on more lock, in short there is minimal tyre scrub. Driving it is akin to a computer game.
Now check out these two videos, both race cars being driven by talented individuals. They are, I grant you, extreme examples of just how large the "disconnect" between the front tyres and the road surface on a pre 997 911 can be :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CvDD8V9Liq8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73MvmT5C-ik
That light, bobbing, fidgety front end is what I love about the 911, whilst for you it's something to abhor. That doesn't make it cr*p, hopeless or slow, it merely makes it a challenge to drive quickly. You're right, it is steering "noise", and no, it's not a necessity, but without it you end up with dull inert steering as seen in the majority of modern cars (especially those with EPAS).
You comments about anti roll bars causing a fidgety front end are as interesting as they are perplexing. I'm not sure if you ran your MK 2 996 GT3 with the front bar at full stiffness ? But if you did, that would explain why you found the already too stiff (only IMO) dampers and springs of the Mk2 too lively and the chassis understeery.
A well set up Mk 1 with it's softer springs and dampers and the front bar set to the middle, is not the fidgety, camber following, darty handful you allude to, on the contrary it's a stable, driveable car with weighty steering that writhes gently (and in a nicely damped manner) in your hands. It becomes even more pleasant to use if you can have the faith to let the wheel move about in your hands, rather than hold it in a "death grip".
Car manufacturers, seeing the backlash against their latest, greatest innovation (EPAS) and stung by the criticism of it, thought "How can we improve it ?" Some bright spark at BMW thought "Let's give the driver a button that enables him to make the steering feel sporty".
And his idea of "sporty" ? to add additional weight. But as I've said before, extra weight isn't the same as extra feel or feedback. That heavier steering doesn't relay ANY additional information or feedback back to you the driver, it just means you have to apply more effort to turn the steering wheel.
Porsche rightly or wrongly have deemed their former steering "noise" unnecessary, and in the process further engineered the 911'ness out of the 911.
But it has to be said that judging by the ever lengthening queue of monied individuals beating a path to purchase Stuttgart's latest GT/R products, I'm in the minority in this, and that undefinable 911 character is now all but lost, a thing of the past and missed by few apart from sandal wearing beardies such as myself ....
Hi H , nice to see you back on here . Loving the 996 in the video , very impressive stuff - fascinating how the two worlds are now miles apart , very interesting, keep well As a former CSL owner you'll know it's steering was light (lighter than any watercooled 911), plenty complained it lacked feel, I maintain it did not, merely that one needed to recalibrate ones senses, then all the feel and feedback you needed to drive it incredibly quickly was available at your fingertips.
As ever it's different strokes for different folks, you dislike understeer, and therefore apply your binary thinking and assume everyone else does too. The reality of the matter is that a massive part of driving any pre 997 911 quickly on the road requires a degree of weight transfer/management to nullify the understeer, it's a "flaw", along with others, that made the 911 the challenging car to drive quickly it once was.
Take these three videos, the first a 911 GT3RS being driven by an individual of questionable ability along the San Bernadino Pass :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNUUx1IvVw4
Note the way he barrels into uphill hairpins (not sure he's got the hang of using a steering wheel judging by how knotted up his arms get...) with nary a care in the world about understeer, the front end just digs in and bites, and as the bends tighten he just piles on more lock, in short there is minimal tyre scrub. Driving it is akin to a computer game.
Now check out these two videos, both race cars being driven by talented individuals. They are, I grant you, extreme examples of just how large the "disconnect" between the front tyres and the road surface on a pre 997 911 can be :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CvDD8V9Liq8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73MvmT5C-ik
That light, bobbing, fidgety front end is what I love about the 911, whilst for you it's something to abhor. That doesn't make it cr*p, hopeless or slow, it merely makes it a challenge to drive quickly. You're right, it is steering "noise", and no, it's not a necessity, but without it you end up with dull inert steering as seen in the majority of modern cars (especially those with EPAS).
You comments about anti roll bars causing a fidgety front end are as interesting as they are perplexing. I'm not sure if you ran your MK 2 996 GT3 with the front bar at full stiffness ? But if you did, that would explain why you found the already too stiff (only IMO) dampers and springs of the Mk2 too lively and the chassis understeery.
A well set up Mk 1 with it's softer springs and dampers and the front bar set to the middle, is not the fidgety, camber following, darty handful you allude to, on the contrary it's a stable, driveable car with weighty steering that writhes gently (and in a nicely damped manner) in your hands. It becomes even more pleasant to use if you can have the faith to let the wheel move about in your hands, rather than hold it in a "death grip".
Car manufacturers, seeing the backlash against their latest, greatest innovation (EPAS) and stung by the criticism of it, thought "How can we improve it ?" Some bright spark at BMW thought "Let's give the driver a button that enables him to make the steering feel sporty".
And his idea of "sporty" ? to add additional weight. But as I've said before, extra weight isn't the same as extra feel or feedback. That heavier steering doesn't relay ANY additional information or feedback back to you the driver, it just means you have to apply more effort to turn the steering wheel.
Porsche rightly or wrongly have deemed their former steering "noise" unnecessary, and in the process further engineered the 911'ness out of the 911.
But it has to be said that judging by the ever lengthening queue of monied individuals beating a path to purchase Stuttgart's latest GT/R products, I'm in the minority in this, and that undefinable 911 character is now all but lost, a thing of the past and missed by few apart from sandal wearing beardies such as myself ....
Slippydiff said:
You comments about anti roll bars causing a fidgety front end are as interesting as they are perplexing. I'm not sure if you ran your MK 2 996 GT3 with the front bar at full stiffness ? But if you did, that would explain why you found the already too stiff (only IMO) dampers and springs of the Mk2 too lively and the chassis understeery.
You're debating with a fellow who believes ARB settings control bump steer, so I wouldn't waste your time.RaysCayman said:
Slippydiff said:
You comments about anti roll bars causing a fidgety front end are as interesting as they are perplexing. I'm not sure if you ran your MK 2 996 GT3 with the front bar at full stiffness ? But if you did, that would explain why you found the already too stiff (only IMO) dampers and springs of the Mk2 too lively and the chassis understeery.
You're debating with a fellow who believes ARB settings control bump steer, so I wouldn't waste your time.
CarreraLightweightRacing said:
Good to see you back on form here 'H'
RSVP911 said:
Hi H , nice to see you back on here . Loving the 996 in the video , very impressive stuff - fascinating how the two worlds are now miles apart , very interesting, keep well
Richard and Richie, you're both too kind. I hope you are both well ? Richie, I recently saw an image of your garage, I couldn't help but notice it still contained two cars .....
Richard, I suspect your garage now contains considerably more than two cars ....
I'm deeply envious of you both, because as you know, my garage is currently empty ! ! The old adage you don't appreciate what you've got until it is gone, is now proving very apt (however looking on the bright side I now own a large slab of concrete and copious amounts of bricks too)
Slippydiff said:
Steering feel, feedback and weight are subjective.
As a former CSL owner you'll know it's steering was light (lighter than any watercooled 911), plenty complained it lacked feel, I maintain it did not, merely that one needed to recalibrate ones senses, then all the feel and feedback you needed to drive it incredibly quickly was available at your fingertips.
As ever it's different strokes for different folks, you dislike understeer, and therefore apply your binary thinking and assume everyone else does too. The reality of the matter is that a massive part of driving any pre 997 911 quickly on the road requires a degree of weight transfer/management to nullify the understeer, it's a "flaw", along with others, that made the 911 the challenging car to drive quickly it once was.
Take these three videos, the first a 911 GT3RS being driven by an individual of questionable ability along the San Bernadino Pass :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNUUx1IvVw4
Note the way he barrels into uphill hairpins (not sure he's got the hang of using a steering wheel judging by how knotted up his arms get...) with nary a care in the world about understeer, the front end just digs in and bites, and as the bends tighten he just piles on more lock, in short there is minimal tyre scrub. Driving it is akin to a computer game.
Now check out these two videos, both race cars being driven by talented individuals. They are, I grant you, extreme examples of just how large the "disconnect" between the front tyres and the road surface on a pre 997 911 can be :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CvDD8V9Liq8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73MvmT5C-ik
That light, bobbing, fidgety front end is what I love about the 911, whilst for you it's something to abhor. That doesn't make it cr*p, hopeless or slow, it merely makes it a challenge to drive quickly. You're right, it is steering "noise", and no, it's not a necessity, but without it you end up with dull inert steering as seen in the majority of modern cars (especially those with EPAS).
You comments about anti roll bars causing a fidgety front end are as interesting as they are perplexing. I'm not sure if you ran your MK 2 996 GT3 with the front bar at full stiffness ? But if you did, that would explain why you found the already too stiff (only IMO) dampers and springs of the Mk2 too lively and the chassis understeery.
A well set up Mk 1 with it's softer springs and dampers and the front bar set to the middle, is not the fidgety, camber following, darty handful you allude to, on the contrary it's a stable, driveable car with weighty steering that writhes gently (and in a nicely damped manner) in your hands. It becomes even more pleasant to use if you can have the faith to let the wheel move about in your hands, rather than hold it in a "death grip".
Car manufacturers, seeing the backlash against their latest, greatest innovation (EPAS) and stung by the criticism of it, thought "How can we improve it ?" Some bright spark at BMW thought "Let's give the driver a button that enables him to make the steering feel sporty".
And his idea of "sporty" ? to add additional weight. But as I've said before, extra weight isn't the same as extra feel or feedback. That heavier steering doesn't relay ANY additional information or feedback back to you the driver, it just means you have to apply more effort to turn the steering wheel.
Porsche rightly or wrongly have deemed their former steering "noise" unnecessary, and in the process further engineered the 911'ness out of the 911.
But it has to be said that judging by the ever lengthening queue of monied individuals beating a path to purchase Stuttgart's latest GT/R products, I'm in the minority in this, and that undefinable 911 character is now all but lost, a thing of the past and missed by few apart from sandal wearing beardies such as myself ....
The old school traits are still there in the race cars. Just look at inboard footage from the Ring and compare the wheel action of a 997 vs. an R8 or SLS driver. The 991 drive will be very busy with his wheel whilst the others can enjoye the lovely Eifel sceneryAs a former CSL owner you'll know it's steering was light (lighter than any watercooled 911), plenty complained it lacked feel, I maintain it did not, merely that one needed to recalibrate ones senses, then all the feel and feedback you needed to drive it incredibly quickly was available at your fingertips.
As ever it's different strokes for different folks, you dislike understeer, and therefore apply your binary thinking and assume everyone else does too. The reality of the matter is that a massive part of driving any pre 997 911 quickly on the road requires a degree of weight transfer/management to nullify the understeer, it's a "flaw", along with others, that made the 911 the challenging car to drive quickly it once was.
Take these three videos, the first a 911 GT3RS being driven by an individual of questionable ability along the San Bernadino Pass :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DNUUx1IvVw4
Note the way he barrels into uphill hairpins (not sure he's got the hang of using a steering wheel judging by how knotted up his arms get...) with nary a care in the world about understeer, the front end just digs in and bites, and as the bends tighten he just piles on more lock, in short there is minimal tyre scrub. Driving it is akin to a computer game.
Now check out these two videos, both race cars being driven by talented individuals. They are, I grant you, extreme examples of just how large the "disconnect" between the front tyres and the road surface on a pre 997 911 can be :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CvDD8V9Liq8
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=73MvmT5C-ik
That light, bobbing, fidgety front end is what I love about the 911, whilst for you it's something to abhor. That doesn't make it cr*p, hopeless or slow, it merely makes it a challenge to drive quickly. You're right, it is steering "noise", and no, it's not a necessity, but without it you end up with dull inert steering as seen in the majority of modern cars (especially those with EPAS).
You comments about anti roll bars causing a fidgety front end are as interesting as they are perplexing. I'm not sure if you ran your MK 2 996 GT3 with the front bar at full stiffness ? But if you did, that would explain why you found the already too stiff (only IMO) dampers and springs of the Mk2 too lively and the chassis understeery.
A well set up Mk 1 with it's softer springs and dampers and the front bar set to the middle, is not the fidgety, camber following, darty handful you allude to, on the contrary it's a stable, driveable car with weighty steering that writhes gently (and in a nicely damped manner) in your hands. It becomes even more pleasant to use if you can have the faith to let the wheel move about in your hands, rather than hold it in a "death grip".
Car manufacturers, seeing the backlash against their latest, greatest innovation (EPAS) and stung by the criticism of it, thought "How can we improve it ?" Some bright spark at BMW thought "Let's give the driver a button that enables him to make the steering feel sporty".
And his idea of "sporty" ? to add additional weight. But as I've said before, extra weight isn't the same as extra feel or feedback. That heavier steering doesn't relay ANY additional information or feedback back to you the driver, it just means you have to apply more effort to turn the steering wheel.
Porsche rightly or wrongly have deemed their former steering "noise" unnecessary, and in the process further engineered the 911'ness out of the 911.
But it has to be said that judging by the ever lengthening queue of monied individuals beating a path to purchase Stuttgart's latest GT/R products, I'm in the minority in this, and that undefinable 911 character is now all but lost, a thing of the past and missed by few apart from sandal wearing beardies such as myself ....
I'm not sure the 991 video is representative. The car is not being driven on the limit, so it doesn't move around much. You only know what a car's really like when you're very close to its limits.
The older videos (race cars obviously) do show why 911s need(ed?) to be driven differently and, becusse they are on the limit, show the underlying characteristics.
Having said all that, it's clear the new cars are more planted, less floaty at front etc. However, a lot of that is coming from the RWS I think, as well as the chassis/suspension. I took a rented 991RS round Spa earlier this year, and at the limit, the front would not turn in initially very well by itself. You have to deliberately use the driver aids if you want to go fast.
So, ABS, full power pedal push, no brake modulation, more or less to apex; under steer kicks in as momentarily you 'over cook' the corner, but let RWS bring it round, so you've ultimately been able to carry in more speed than you would have expected was possible.
Then, the exit is definitely strange under power. I think because the rear is moving around, the car feels pretty twitchy at exit, more than most. Once you realise this is normal, you drove through it, but it's disconcerting at first.
So, as you would expect, I think a lot of the inherent 911 traits are still there, and will be more so in unassisted race cars. You can hint at them briefly at the limit, but the electronics etc kick in, in the road cars at least. it's a different experience - very fast, but you walk away thinking there was something unsatisfying in there being a layer between you and the car at every interaction.
Porsche has looked at the 911 idiosyncrasies that the race car drivers are demonstrating, and then added electronics to fix, and make the underlying performance more accessible to most.
The older videos (race cars obviously) do show why 911s need(ed?) to be driven differently and, becusse they are on the limit, show the underlying characteristics.
Having said all that, it's clear the new cars are more planted, less floaty at front etc. However, a lot of that is coming from the RWS I think, as well as the chassis/suspension. I took a rented 991RS round Spa earlier this year, and at the limit, the front would not turn in initially very well by itself. You have to deliberately use the driver aids if you want to go fast.
So, ABS, full power pedal push, no brake modulation, more or less to apex; under steer kicks in as momentarily you 'over cook' the corner, but let RWS bring it round, so you've ultimately been able to carry in more speed than you would have expected was possible.
Then, the exit is definitely strange under power. I think because the rear is moving around, the car feels pretty twitchy at exit, more than most. Once you realise this is normal, you drove through it, but it's disconcerting at first.
So, as you would expect, I think a lot of the inherent 911 traits are still there, and will be more so in unassisted race cars. You can hint at them briefly at the limit, but the electronics etc kick in, in the road cars at least. it's a different experience - very fast, but you walk away thinking there was something unsatisfying in there being a layer between you and the car at every interaction.
Porsche has looked at the 911 idiosyncrasies that the race car drivers are demonstrating, and then added electronics to fix, and make the underlying performance more accessible to most.
Edited by footsoldier on Friday 30th September 07:50
Edited by footsoldier on Friday 30th September 07:57
footsoldier said:
I'm not sure the 991 video is representative. The car is not being driven on the limit, so it doesn't move around much. You only know what a car's really like when you're very close to its limits.
The older videos (race cars obviously) do show why 911s need(ed?) to be driven differently and, becusse they are on the limit, show the underlying characteristics.
Having said all that, it's clear the new cars are more planted, less floaty at front etc. However, a lot of that is coming from the RWS I think, as well as the chassis/suspension. I took a rented 991RS round Spa earlier this year, and at the limit, the front would not turn in initially very well by itself. You have to deliberately use the driver aids if you want to go fast.
So, ABS, full power pedal push, no brake modulation, more or less to apex; under steer kicks in as momentarily you 'over cook' the corner, but let RWS bring it round, so you've ultimately been able to carry in more speed than you would have expected was possible.
Then, the exit is definitely strange under power. I think because the rear is moving around, the car feels pretty twitchy at exit, more than most. Once you realise this is normal, you drove through it, but it's disconcerting at first.
So, as you would expect, I think a lot of the inherent 911 traits are still there, and will be more so in unassisted race cars. You can hint at them briefly at the limit, but the electronics etc kick in, in the road cars at least. it's a different experience - very fast, but you walk away thinking there was something unsatisfying in there being a layer between you and the car at every interaction.
Porsche has looked at the 911 idiosyncrasies that the race car drivers are demonstrating, and then added electronics to fix, and make the underlying performance more accessible to most.
Which really is the crux of the issue with the later iterations, despite effectively keeping the DNA intrinsically the same, the driving experience still isn't. But I'm sure for many, that's not an issue, but for a few, it definitely is. The older videos (race cars obviously) do show why 911s need(ed?) to be driven differently and, becusse they are on the limit, show the underlying characteristics.
Having said all that, it's clear the new cars are more planted, less floaty at front etc. However, a lot of that is coming from the RWS I think, as well as the chassis/suspension. I took a rented 991RS round Spa earlier this year, and at the limit, the front would not turn in initially very well by itself. You have to deliberately use the driver aids if you want to go fast.
So, ABS, full power pedal push, no brake modulation, more or less to apex; under steer kicks in as momentarily you 'over cook' the corner, but let RWS bring it round, so you've ultimately been able to carry in more speed than you would have expected was possible.
Then, the exit is definitely strange under power. I think because the rear is moving around, the car feels pretty twitchy at exit, more than most. Once you realise this is normal, you drove through it, but it's disconcerting at first.
So, as you would expect, I think a lot of the inherent 911 traits are still there, and will be more so in unassisted race cars. You can hint at them briefly at the limit, but the electronics etc kick in, in the road cars at least. it's a different experience - very fast, but you walk away thinking there was something unsatisfying in there being a layer between you and the car at every interaction.
Porsche has looked at the 911 idiosyncrasies that the race car drivers are demonstrating, and then added electronics to fix, and make the underlying performance more accessible to most.
Apologies, I wasn't suggesting for one minute the 991 RS video was the definitive quickly road driven example ! ! On the contrary, it was more to illustrate that even someone moderately skilled can rely on the front end of the modern cars to be stable, planted and grippy on the road. The video was more to illustrate the front end doesn't appear to generate big slip angles, doing the same in the older cars would have the front end ploughing on in arm aching understeer !!
I know when I first took my Gen 1 997 GT3 out on the road and overcooked it (or so I initially thought) in a tightening left hander, I was surprised that winding more lock on, on a balanced throttle, enabled the car to make the corner seemingly with plenty of grip to spare. Had I done the same in my 996 GT3, it would have ended in tears.....
Clearly road driving and track driving are different disciplines albeit with a degree of crossover. The 991 chassis appears to have been designed to give a more stable road platform by virtue of its longer wheelbase, and whilst that is clearly a benefit for the majority of road users, it would also appear to work against the car on track, hence the introduction of the RWS to enable the car to rotate and in the process reduce the fabled 911 understeer.
You describe heavy trail braking at Spa, was that with the electronics disabled ? If you do disable them, does the chassis still "work" if you trail brake to increase weight transfer on to the front wheels up to the apex ? and having used trail braking up to the apex, is it still possible to rotate the car easily to enhance it's mid corner turn in ?
RaysCayman said:
You're debating with a fellow who believes ARB settings control bump steer, so I wouldn't waste your time.
I knew this would come up lolI said, if you want to remember ! that while it's NOT bump steer the ARB on full stiff gives off that same type of feel as having bump steer, ie. you hit a bump and it moved the steering wheel !!! get over it ;-) I did not know what to call it when I tried to explain it 4 years ago ! and used the word "bump steer" to try and put across what the feeling was, atm people are calling this wheel movement "noise" again not a correct term but it has no real name I know of ! people seem to call this feel !!! which it's not !
I ran the GT3 fully stiff for a few months and it was shocking bad, I did move it to full soft for the last 6 months, but hitting a rut with one wheel still caused too much wheel movement as the 2 front wheels are connected to a too Stiff front ARB for bumpy roads !!!
As for feel the R has more than the GT3 imo with like for like geo's, it has nothing to do with understeer and what I like/dislike about how a car drives.
It's well known the mk2 GT3 and even the gen 1 997 GT3 are camber hunters which just don't suit B road blasting. and Hence Slippy liked the softer mk1 GT3 set up, and even states the mk2 is too hard !!!
And now it seems 997GT3 owners 10 years on are finally getting round to fitting nice passive shocks lol you cannot make this s
t up I tell you. but hay GT3 love is key on PH.So if you read between the lines Slippy is just backing up what I said in his own words, and people are now fitting passive nicers riding shocks to 997 's :-)
Edited by Porsche911R on Friday 30th September 14:11
Porsche911R said:
I knew this would come up lol
I said, if you want to remember ! that while it's NOT bump steer the ARB on full stiff gives off that same type of feel as having bump steer, ie. you hit a bump and it moved the steering wheel !!! get over it ;-) I did not know what to call it when I tried to explain it 4 years ago ! and used the word "bump steer" to try and put across what the feeling was, atm people are calling this wheel movement "noise" again not a correct term but it has no real name I know of ! people seem to call this feel !!! which it's not !
Oh go on, try, I'm sure you can come up with something. Perhaps it could even be feedback ????I said, if you want to remember ! that while it's NOT bump steer the ARB on full stiff gives off that same type of feel as having bump steer, ie. you hit a bump and it moved the steering wheel !!! get over it ;-) I did not know what to call it when I tried to explain it 4 years ago ! and used the word "bump steer" to try and put across what the feeling was, atm people are calling this wheel movement "noise" again not a correct term but it has no real name I know of ! people seem to call this feel !!! which it's not !
Porsche911R said:
I ran the GT3 fully stiff for a few months and it was shocking bad, I did move it to full soft for the last 6 months, but hitting a rut with one wheel still caused too much wheel movement as the 2 front wheels are connected to a too Stiff front ARB for bumpy roads !!!
Not a couple of days, not a week, a few months ? Really. Why would you do that. It's no surprise you're a critic and never got your head around the GT3's chassis dynamics. Porsche911R said:
As for feel the R has more than the GT3 imo with like for like geo's, it has nothing to do with understeer and what I like/dislike about how a car drives.
YOU'VE chosen to entwine the two for some unfathomable reasonBut let's clarify this once and for all, do you like or dislike understeer ?
Porsche911R said:
It's well known the mk2 GT3 and even the gen 1 997 GT3 are camber hunters which just don't suit B road blasting.
Tell us all, where is it documented that the cars you've referred to are "camber hunters", neither of the Gen 1 997 GT3's I had (you'll remember the one, it had MPSS on and you questioned 911V's integrity in retailing it with them fitted) were in any way "camber hunters". On the contrary, they were so planted you needed to be doing upwards of 115 Leptons on the road to make their chassis feel alive. Ultimately I sold both of them for that reason, they were just too planted at sensible speeds.Porsche911R said:
And Hence Slippy liked the softer mk1 GT3 set up, and even states the mk2 is too hard !!!
And ????? Everyone (except perhaps those living in caves) knows I have a soft spot for the Mk1 over the Mk2 as a road car. So what's your point here ?
Porsche911R said:
And now it seems 997GT3 owners 10 years on are finally getting round to fitting nice passive shocks lol you cannot make this st up I tell you.
You seem to have veered off on tangent for reasons best known to yourself. Please tell us what on earth you're talking about ? And it's relevance to this thread ? t up I tell you.Porsche911R said:
but hay GT3 love is key on PH.
A good case for a straw poll perhaps ?So to my mind Slippy is just backing up what I said in his own words, and people are now fitting passive nicers riding shocks to 997 's :-)
I suggest you re-read what I've posted if that's the conclusion you've come to. Slippy is doing no such thing. All you've actually done is post a load of bluster which lacks any relevance to what anyone's posted on this thread and thus it makes little if any sense whatsoever.
Slippydiff said:
Richard and Richie, you're both too kind. I hope you are both well ?
Richie, I recently saw an image of your garage, I couldn't help but notice it still contained two cars .....
Richard, I suspect your garage now contains considerably more than two cars ....
I'm deeply envious of you both, because as you know, my garage is currently empty ! ! The old adage you don't appreciate what you've got until it is gone, is now proving very apt (however looking on the bright side I now own a large slab of concrete and copious amounts of bricks too)
I'm well thanks - happy to share if it helps Richie, I recently saw an image of your garage, I couldn't help but notice it still contained two cars .....
Richard, I suspect your garage now contains considerably more than two cars ....
I'm deeply envious of you both, because as you know, my garage is currently empty ! ! The old adage you don't appreciate what you've got until it is gone, is now proving very apt (however looking on the bright side I now own a large slab of concrete and copious amounts of bricks too)
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