Weekend road car.... 997.1 GT3 or 964 C2?
Discussion
So thinking about a weekend only naturally aspirated 911 and both the 997.1 GT3 (comfort) and 964 C2 (both manual/coupe) keep catching my eye. The 7.1 GT3 would be more focused straight out of the box, but the 964 C2 could be sympathetically upgraded in certain areas.
I spend more time on the road (very little on track) and do enjoy the rawer cars (my 3.2's were better than the 993 IMO).
The 997.1 GT3 seems more logical and the pick of the two as it's more special, but I can't help feeling the smaller classic 964 C2 would be a better weekend road car.
I know there are a few who own or have owned both (been following Steve Rance's 964 Project) so would be interested in your views.
Thanks.
I spend more time on the road (very little on track) and do enjoy the rawer cars (my 3.2's were better than the 993 IMO).
The 997.1 GT3 seems more logical and the pick of the two as it's more special, but I can't help feeling the smaller classic 964 C2 would be a better weekend road car.
I know there are a few who own or have owned both (been following Steve Rance's 964 Project) so would be interested in your views.
Thanks.
964 is the far better choice for a road only car.
Cooler, slower, more fun, more feel, cheaper.
Not sure why the above poster thinks a GT3 is more a drivers car ! The 964 just feels more analog and no PASM crap.
Cayman R is a great shout also and many a GT3 owner and 964 owner have traded up to the R :-) because it makes a great road car.. And as Porsche know with the RSR the R has the engine in the right place.
I love the 964 but prices are a bit high, I hate talking refresh costs, but now the cars are £50k and not £15k you cannot throw a 30k rebuild at one and make it worth £80k sadly , other wise I would have one.
I would say most would have rot now and there are loads of cover up jobs done on these cars with cheap blow over resprays. Most would benefit a bare metal rebuild now ! Sun roof leak and rot low down under the A pillars and chassis.
Other route is find one which has been done when they were £15k and the owners still in pocket after a 30k rebuild.
Most of those seem to be keepers though I have not seen a car like that for sale for ages.
Cooler, slower, more fun, more feel, cheaper.
Not sure why the above poster thinks a GT3 is more a drivers car ! The 964 just feels more analog and no PASM crap.
Cayman R is a great shout also and many a GT3 owner and 964 owner have traded up to the R :-) because it makes a great road car.. And as Porsche know with the RSR the R has the engine in the right place.
I love the 964 but prices are a bit high, I hate talking refresh costs, but now the cars are £50k and not £15k you cannot throw a 30k rebuild at one and make it worth £80k sadly , other wise I would have one.
I would say most would have rot now and there are loads of cover up jobs done on these cars with cheap blow over resprays. Most would benefit a bare metal rebuild now ! Sun roof leak and rot low down under the A pillars and chassis.
Other route is find one which has been done when they were £15k and the owners still in pocket after a 30k rebuild.
Most of those seem to be keepers though I have not seen a car like that for sale for ages.
Edited by Porsche911R on Saturday 3rd December 15:06
Porsche911R said:
964 is the far better choice for a road only car.
Cooler, slower, more fun, more feel, cheaper.
Not sure why the above poster thinks a GT3 is more a drivers car ! The 964 just feels more analog and no PASM crap.
Cayman R is a great shout also and many a GT3 owner and 964 owner have traded up to the R :-) because it makes a great road car.. And as Porsche know with the RSR the R has the engine in the right place.
I love the 964 but prices are a bit high, I hate talking refresh costs, but now the cars are £50k and not £15k you cannot throw a 30k rebuild at one and make it worth £80k sadly , other wise I would have one.
I would say most would have rot now and there are loads of cover up jobs done on these cars with cheap blow over resprays. Most would benefit a bare metal rebuild now ! Sun roof leak and rot low down under the A pillars and chassis.
Other route is find one which has been done when they were £15k and the owners still in pocket after a 30k rebuild.
Most of those seem to be keepers though I have not seen a car like that for sale for ages.
You just can't help yourself can you? Cooler, slower, more fun, more feel, cheaper.
Not sure why the above poster thinks a GT3 is more a drivers car ! The 964 just feels more analog and no PASM crap.
Cayman R is a great shout also and many a GT3 owner and 964 owner have traded up to the R :-) because it makes a great road car.. And as Porsche know with the RSR the R has the engine in the right place.
I love the 964 but prices are a bit high, I hate talking refresh costs, but now the cars are £50k and not £15k you cannot throw a 30k rebuild at one and make it worth £80k sadly , other wise I would have one.
I would say most would have rot now and there are loads of cover up jobs done on these cars with cheap blow over resprays. Most would benefit a bare metal rebuild now ! Sun roof leak and rot low down under the A pillars and chassis.
Other route is find one which has been done when they were £15k and the owners still in pocket after a 30k rebuild.
Most of those seem to be keepers though I have not seen a car like that for sale for ages.
Edited by Porsche911R on Saturday 3rd December 15:06
If someone asked which they should buy - a Big Mac or a KFC you would somehow manage to suggest they would be better off buying a Cayman R. Just leave it to those who have owned or driven both extensively to offer an opinion.
I have both in my garage currently. For a fun hoon on the road I drive the 964 for probably 90% of the time which I didn't think would be the case. Mainly because it engages at all speeds and the set up is very sharp and probably at the very edge of the capabilities of the chassis which makes the car feel alive and part of the driver. However a standard 964 is pretty soft and vaigue by comparison. In basic form the GT3 is a long way ahead for me, it's hardware and chassis are a huge leap forward and it's potential for development far greater. On saying all that, at slower/road speeds the GT3 does not engage the driver like the modified 964. The 997 needs higher speeds to fully come alive. If I had to chose between the two as a fun road hooner only, I think that I'd probably go for the 964. On saying that, better damping control, a diff upgrade and a geo on the 997 May well make it more engaging at slower speeds.
Bear in mind that my 64 is far from standard and the upgrade process will be expensive. The other proviso being that you can source a decent C2 as a base car.
Bear in mind that my 64 is far from standard and the upgrade process will be expensive. The other proviso being that you can source a decent C2 as a base car.
BubblesNW said:
You just can't help yourself can you?
If someone asked which they should buy - a Big Mac or a KFC you would somehow manage to suggest they would be better off buying a Cayman R. Just leave it to those who have owned or driven both extensively to offer an opinion.
Please don't ruin the thread , and offer the OP some advice like I did, or don't post at all.If someone asked which they should buy - a Big Mac or a KFC you would somehow manage to suggest they would be better off buying a Cayman R. Just leave it to those who have owned or driven both extensively to offer an opinion.
some people don't even know about the Cayman R or are very GT3 blinkered.
I don't think anything I have posted has anything to do with you.
Edited by Porsche911R on Saturday 3rd December 17:14
as long as you stiffen her up a bit and make it a bit more accurate/pointy then the 964 all day long
more fun a lot more of the time and at far lower speeds .... enjoy that feeling of "wringing it out" so much more of the time
problem is, its often only once you've 'done' the more modern and prestigious car that one is prepared to overlook it in favour of something lower down the food chain
more fun a lot more of the time and at far lower speeds .... enjoy that feeling of "wringing it out" so much more of the time
problem is, its often only once you've 'done' the more modern and prestigious car that one is prepared to overlook it in favour of something lower down the food chain
Edited by jackal on Saturday 3rd December 17:40
Porsche911R said:
BubblesNW said:
You just can't help yourself can you?
If someone asked which they should buy - a Big Mac or a KFC you would somehow manage to suggest they would be better off buying a Cayman R. Just leave it to those who have owned or driven both extensively to offer an opinion.
Please don't ruin the thread , and offer the OP some advice like I did, or don't post at all.If someone asked which they should buy - a Big Mac or a KFC you would somehow manage to suggest they would be better off buying a Cayman R. Just leave it to those who have owned or driven both extensively to offer an opinion.
some people don't even know about the Cayman R or are very GT3 blinkered.
I don't think anything I have posted has anything to do with you.
So back on track (or road) 997.1 GT3 or 964 C2?
I would normally opt for the 997.1 GT3 but it does seem that I might get more enjoyment out of a 964 C2 hence the question.
Really interested to hear from those with experience of both (thanks Steve R).
Keep those views coming!
jackal said:
as long as you stiffen her up a bit and make it a bit more accurate/pointy then the 964 all day long
more fun a lot more of the time and at far lower speeds .... enjoy that feeling of "wringing it out" so much more of the time
problem is, its often only once you've 'done' the more modern and prestigious car that one is prepared to overlook it in favour of something lower down the food chain
^ Precisely this, though the phrase "something lower down the food chain" is a misnomer. A well maintained, properly honed 964 will give you far, far more fum on the road than a Gen 1 7GT3 (and at non-license losing speeds) And is incredibly cool to boot.more fun a lot more of the time and at far lower speeds .... enjoy that feeling of "wringing it out" so much more of the time
problem is, its often only once you've 'done' the more modern and prestigious car that one is prepared to overlook it in favour of something lower down the food chain
Porsche911R said:
964 is the far better choice for a road only car.
Cooler, slower, more fun, more feel, cheaper.
Not sure why the above poster thinks a GT3 is more a drivers car ! The 964 just feels more analog and no PASM crap.
I know this may come as a bit of a shock to you, but no Porsche built prior to the 997 featured PASM...Cooler, slower, more fun, more feel, cheaper.
Not sure why the above poster thinks a GT3 is more a drivers car ! The 964 just feels more analog and no PASM crap.
Porsche911R said:
And as Porsche know with the RSR the R has the engine in the right place.
Give it a rest and stop being an obnoxious little tw*t just for a change ay ?Porsche911R said:
I love the 964 but prices are a bit high
Prices a bit high ? Says who ?
Porsche911R said:
I hate talking refresh costs, but now the cars are £50k and not £15k you cannot throw a 30k rebuild at one and make it worth £80k sadly , other wise I would have one.
Then don't.Porsche911R said:
I would say most would have rot now and there are loads of cover up jobs done on these cars with cheap blow over resprays. Most would benefit a bare metal rebuild now ! Sun roof leak and rot low down under the A pillars and chassis.
Stop posting blanket tosh regarding corrosion. Every 964 needs to be assessed individually. Sure SOME MAY have corrosion issues, but plenty of well looked after examples won't, so stop posting your usual sweeping generalisations about stuff you've little clue about.Porsche911R said:
Cayman R is a great shout also and many a GT3 owner and 964 owner have traded up to the R :-) because it makes a great road car..
Sorry, did the OP say he was torn between a Cayman R or a Gen 1997 GT3 and a 964 C2 ?No he didn't didn't. Go figure.
g7jhp said:
Thanks Porsche911R (David) but I tried a Cayman R back in 2010 when I had a 3.2 Carrera and although it was a lovely steer it didn't excite me and lacked the raw appeal of the 3.2.
So back on track (or road) 997.1 GT3 or 964 C2?
I would normally opt for the 997.1 GT3 but it does seem that I might get more enjoyment out of a 964 C2 hence the question.
Really interested to hear from those with experience of both (thanks Steve R).
Keep those views coming!
Errrr, you can't say that, the Cayman R is the THE finest car/steer in the known universe. So back on track (or road) 997.1 GT3 or 964 C2?
I would normally opt for the 997.1 GT3 but it does seem that I might get more enjoyment out of a 964 C2 hence the question.
Really interested to hear from those with experience of both (thanks Steve R).
Keep those views coming!
I've owned a couple of Gen 1 997 GT3's, four LHD 964 RS's and a RHD C2. All were wonderful cars, but as Steve and others have said, the 997 GT3 is far, far too accomplished at sensible/sane speeds on the road. And as both Steve and Richard have said, a standard 964, whilst lovely, is a bit of a wallowy old barge, so you'll need to find one that's been upgraded with one of the numerous off the shelf suspension upgrades, or factor the cost of purchasing and fitting one into your budget. Just be aware that once you've opened that can of worms, you could find yourself replacing bushes, arms, top mounts etc etc. It could all start to get expensive and rapidly spiral out of control .....
There's another small caveat which will be a none issue for plenty, and a big issue for some others. The driving position/pedal layout on RHD air cooled cars is "less than ideal" when compared with a LHD versions. I briefly owned a RHD C2 and just could not get on with the pedal layout. As I said though, this will be a none issue for lots/most individuals.
As our bitter and twisted erstwhile 996 GT3 owner has said, if you can find a car that's had money lavished on it in the form of suspension and exhaust mods etc (and some bills for a top end/engine overhaul would be nice too on higher mileage cars) you'll save yourself some expense. However those that have these wonderful cars have come to appreciate just what a bargain they were, and aren't looking to offload them anytime soon !
I have a suspicion there may be more/better bargains to be found in the 993 section of the classifieds these days.
some food for thought for the 997 GT3 perspective is to put the car on very road biased tyres, i.e neither Michelin Cups nor supersports. When i bought my 997.1 Gt3 it had only ever had road use and was on N-rated Pirelli Pzeros. Obviously it aint going to be the fastest thing on track (nor great in the wet!) on those tyres but it definitely lowers the limits, which can make the car more engaging on the road. you could also give it pointier geo if that suits your preference.
don't be put off by reports of long gearing, it just means you have to get used to using 2nd gear a lot more often since 2nd tops out at 80-85 (i.e. 2nd is your overtaking gear, when most people are used to 3rd).
i very very nearly bought a 964 a few years ago just before the price rises (i took too long getting shot of another car) bt it has always been my favourite air-cooled after the pre-IBs.
Enjoy the search.
don't be put off by reports of long gearing, it just means you have to get used to using 2nd gear a lot more often since 2nd tops out at 80-85 (i.e. 2nd is your overtaking gear, when most people are used to 3rd).
i very very nearly bought a 964 a few years ago just before the price rises (i took too long getting shot of another car) bt it has always been my favourite air-cooled after the pre-IBs.
Enjoy the search.
kevs 172 said:
hondansx said:
If you want to lose grip then just don't put Cups on a GT3.
Comparing a GT3 to a 964 C2... lol... really surprised if it's even a discussion.
I agree,I have a 7 GT3 and a 993c2s,very hard to compare the two as I find them so different.Comparing a GT3 to a 964 C2... lol... really surprised if it's even a discussion.
I was interested in opinions.
Kevs 172 when do you use your 993 from your 7 GT3?
I think that for a fun road car for me it comes down to what offers the more engagement and reward for more of the time.The 997 has far more pace and it definitely engages the driver but the PASM and ABD footprint etc filter a fair bit at lower speeds. The 964 engages at all speeds
If I were to keep one car for both road and track, it would definitely be the 997 but if the OP is looking for primarily a road car, I'd definitely take the 964
If I were to keep one car for both road and track, it would definitely be the 997 but if the OP is looking for primarily a road car, I'd definitely take the 964
964 if it looked something like this -
http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/12/magnus-opus-th...
Otherwise a 997 GT3 is a fantastic car in both looks and drive - hard to beat IMO. I've always been a BIG fan of the look of the 964 (not driven one though) but reliability would scare me (I have absolutely zero mechanical knowledge so a mobile phone, flare gun, AA card, tin of beans, and a blanket would be vital pieces of equipment in my 964)
http://www.speedhunters.com/2016/12/magnus-opus-th...
Otherwise a 997 GT3 is a fantastic car in both looks and drive - hard to beat IMO. I've always been a BIG fan of the look of the 964 (not driven one though) but reliability would scare me (I have absolutely zero mechanical knowledge so a mobile phone, flare gun, AA card, tin of beans, and a blanket would be vital pieces of equipment in my 964)
I've owned versions of both. Pluses and minuses. The GT3 is more of a full on weapon of a car, rather more "race car for the road" vibe with an excellent, rev-hungry howler of an engine. The 964 had lovely feel in the steering and I also enjoyed the feel of being in something a bit smaller and chuckable.
Edited by jimmyslr on Sunday 4th December 11:21
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