Weekend road car.... 997.1 GT3 or 964 C2?

[Steve Rance]

Harris_I said:

I'm surprised no-one has commented that the 996 GT3 would be a perfect combination of the involvement you get from air-cooled and bona fide racetrack credentials from the modern GT range.

Plus currently much better value than either IMHO.

Absolutely agree with that. I was trying to give an objective view based specifically on the OP's question. But as you say, the 6GT3 bridges the gap between both cars.

It is all very subjective as the 997 remains a constant as a standard car in the OP's question but the 964 really can be modified into anything that he may wish it to be within reason. On that basis, since it has modern underpinnings and the criteria is for the best car in terms of engagement and reward at road speeds, the 964 has what some would say as an unfair edge in this scenario. If raw pace and high speed engagement were the OP's criteria, the 997 would demolish the 964.

[Slippydiff]

GT3andy said:

Just my twopenathworth but the talk about a 997 GT3 being too good/fast for road speeds is just strange in my opinion. Have been driving Porsches for the past 25 years and around 30K per year road miles. Cars such as 994S2, 3.2, 964, 993 standard, and also highly modified 993 and can tell you that the 997 GT3 RS is so superior as a standard car to all the others I frankly just don't get it. Maybe is comes down to the use and road types. I live in the Cotswolds with very uneven roads, and no matter what we modified on the older ones, they were all a bit of a nightmare over typically rough UK roads . The GT3 RS however just soaks it up and leaves you to get on with having some fun. Each to their own I suppose. But i'd go for the 997 GT3 every day. Just an opinion of course.

Well on the basis that for something to be really good, it needs to be a bit sh*t, the older 911's fulfill the brief perfectly. It was those "flaws" that made the 911 (and especially the older versions) such fantastic drivers cars.
In short, you've summed up precisely why I didn't enjoy the 997 GT3, it was just too composed to actually be fun at sane speeds. That's not a criticism, nor does it make the 997 GT3 in any way an inferior/bad car, on the contrary it's merely Porsche doing it's job, that being to further refine it's cars, make them quicker, easier to drive and appeal to a wider demographic.

Sure if outright speed is your only metric (and what floats your boat) the 997 GT3 will tick a lot of of boxes (of course we'll then get into the old, "if speed is your ultimate metric, buy a 997/991 Turbo/S, Datsun GTR (or if some are to be believed, a Cayman R should do the trick...)" ;-)

My guess is most 997 GT3 owners would respond that the Turbo is "too easy", "too refined" or "I don't like 4WD or Turbos". Press them further and they'll possibly say they're lacking in character or tactility ..... which is of course what many say about the 997/996 GT3 when compared with the 964/993 and what owners of the early air cooled cars say about the 964/993 !!

And FWIW, I'm Midlands based. My first proper run out in my first 997 GT3 was across the Cotswolds back on New Years Eve 2009. I reached 150kph ahem on some of the faster (though still bumpy) A and B roads, initially I thought I was doing a "reasonable" 120kph, and was somewhat taken aback to find I was doing rather closer to 150 kph than was desirable when I looked down at the speedometer. Even at those speeds the car felt utterly composed and stable, whereas a 964 RS would've felt like it was about to take off, a 993 RS merely lively, and the 996 GT3 getting a tad fidgety.

I've no doubt a 12c, 650S, 675LT, 991 Turbo/S, 2015 R8 V10/Plus would breeze along at the same speeds without breaking sweat, but where's the fun in that ? For me (and I stress for me) there's none, only the ever present threat of an "extended break" at her majesty's pleasure, or an accident the results of which would look more akin to that of an aircraft crash, than that of a motor vehicle.

[Mousem40]

These arguments tend to fall into two camps.

Either you get your driving pleasure from having the car on the edge (964 achieves this at much lower speeds than the GT3, so you'd love the 964) or you just enjoy the driving experience of a 'better' car at any speeds (sharper steering, solid gear shift, better brakes, better chassis etc) in which case it's the GT3.

So it depends on how the OP gets his thrills.

I'm also not so sure about the 996GT3 being a better halfway house. All this talk of the 997 GT3 being more refined/easier/a car for the masses etc isn't true. I've owned both. The 997 is just a better car in almost every metric (except I'd say brake pedal feel with the annoying over servoed brakes that have become the norm) The 997GT3 has a much better shift, more grip, same steering feel (not on the limit) faster, more torque, more power. The suspension in hard mode is slightly harder than the 6GT3 (but still totally useable on the roads - that's another myth I don't get) and in soft mode slightly softer. It's really the same car just dialled up to 11 (notwithstanding PASM which some like and some don't, but it's really only when you're pushing really hard that you notice it). I don't miss the 996GT3 - apart from the brake feel, and it being less of a button fest.

So again that seems to be another argument of enjoying a car with lower limits because you like to drive on the edge, or do you prefer an actually better car?

[Porsche911R]

GT3andy said:

Just my twopenathworth but the talk about a 997 GT3 being too good/fast for road speeds is just strange in my opinion. Have been driving Porsches for the past 25 years and around 30K per year road miles. Cars such as 994S2, 3.2, 964, 993 standard, and also highly modified 993 and can tell you that the 997 GT3 RS is so superior as a standard car to all the others I frankly just don't get it. Maybe is comes down to the use and road types. I live in the Cotswolds with very uneven roads, and no matter what we modified on the older ones, they were all a bit of a nightmare over typically rough UK roads . The GT3 RS however just soaks it up and leaves you to get on with having some fun. Each to their own I suppose. But i'd go for the 997 GT3 every day. Just an opinion of course.

My issue with it was just pure frustration , yes you can drive it on the road, but to get it to feel alive and access the 6k mezger engine was far and few between.

It was that simple why I sold mine. I think that's why people say too fast for the road, because hitting 6k in 3rd is >100 mph, so it never happens and so seems pointless to own one in the UK for road only driving.

[ras62]

Slippydiff...I recall you joining a 964 Rennlist run a few years back in a grey? 997 GT3. We battered around a good while and I recall the gist of our conversation when we all parked up.
"looked like you guys were having fun....this GT3 just has too much grip, its point and go, its too wide and I don't get involved driving without going stupidly fast"

[Orangecurry]

I agree strongly with 50% of the comments I even wrote a letter to EVO about this many years ago.

I had a new Prodrive Impreza and a suspension-refreshed Golf MK1 1.8 GTI at the time.

The Impreza destroys the GTI at every level, compliance included, and yet on real roads in real situations, quiet sunday mornings included, I would choose the old-skool car more and more, with it's highly tactile control-weights, high connectivity with the driver, relatively low grip and very low servo-assisted braking, low weight and low power.

You could get this marvelous connectivity with the Subaru, and one time I was immersed with this fabulous car doing just that, I glanced at the speedometer.... oops.

Less is more.

Edited by Orangecurry on Wednesday 7th December 10:20

[Slippydiff]

ras62 said:

Slippydiff...I recall you joining a 964 Rennlist run a few years back in a grey? 997 GT3. We battered around a good while and I recall the gist of our conversation when we all parked up.
"looked like you guys were having fun....this GT3 just has too much grip, its point and go, its too wide and I don't get involved driving without going stupidly fast"

''Twas me I even went on to buy another example and repeat the process "just to make sure". Same result
Fantastic car, no doubting it, but ultimately I found it just too "good" and accomplished to have roadgoing fun in at sane speeds.
Unlike some, I have no issue with the gearbox ratios, nor the lofty revs needed to gain peak torque/hp and thereby extract the car's performance, that's all part of the appeal, if it wasn't I'd buy a 996/7 Turbo, Datsun GTR and revel in the low down torque they have available.

In the case of the 996/7 GT3 you just need to chose the right roads for the car, this rather than realise the car you've bought doesn't suit you, your useage or the roads you'd intended driving it on, only to sell it and then spend the rest of your life trying to convince all the other GT3 owners their cars are flawed because the engine's in the wrong place, the gearbox ratios are poorly chosen and the chassis balance is hopeless, and if they do much as dare to disagree with your standpoint, state they must be idiots 'cause they don't appreciate your perspective !

[TB303]

Quite fancy getting a manual 964 C2.

Can anyone tell me the max in gear speeds at the red line?

Must be a fun car as I'm sure it's not 82 MPH in 2nd at the red line

[n12maser]

Don't know the exact gearing, but having had a 964 (C4) and now a 993 carrera, I can tell you the gearing is absolutely spot on for spirited driving on tight twisty b-roads. In 2nd gear at speeds of around 50mph to around 65mph you'll be in the 4k to 7k rpm powerband in 2nd gear. It'll feel like you're going much much faster!

[lemmingjames]

Porsche911R said:

My issue with it was just pure frustration , yes you can drive it on the road, but to get it to feel alive and access the 6k mezger engine was far and few between.

It was that simple why I sold mine. I think that's why people say too fast for the road, because hitting 6k in 3rd is >100 mph, so it never happens and so seems pointless to own one in the UK for road only driving.

Didnt you recently proclaim in the GT4 thread about reaching 1.5g on cornering down some country lanes/on the road and not the track? Now what sort of speed/driving style would be required on public roads to achieve such a thing? Along with doing 120mph down lanes near you in any of your cars yet you whine that the mezger engines are inaccessible?

Doesnt the 996 have lower gear ratios than all your fabled garage stock?

Anyway, modified 964 or a 997.1 GT3, if money ended up being the same, id go with the 964

[Steve Rance]

I think that this is a fair representation of the driving experience of a modified 964. Set up can be changed to suit the driver's preferences

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[ras62]

TB303 said:

Quite fancy getting a manual 964 C2.

Can anyone tell me the max in gear speeds at the red line?

Must be a fun car as I'm sure it's not 82 MPH in 2nd at the red line

41 69 101 131 164

[Porsche911R]

lemmingjames said:

Didnt you recently proclaim in the GT4 thread about reaching 1.5g on cornering down some country lanes/on the road and not the track? Now what sort of speed/driving style would be required on public roads to achieve such a thing?

Very little as it happens I can pull 1.4g at 40 mph even less ! Hence. I said I get the fun in the twisty bits from G's not outright speed.

[lemmingjames]

Porsche911R said:

Very little as it happens I can pull 1.4g at 40 mph even less ! Hence. I said I get the fun in the twisty bits from G's not outright speed.

Given that i dont have a g meter, im interested in what sort of corners can generate 1.4g (in a non pisstake way). Im guessing round-a-bout?

[TB303]

n12maser said:

Don't know the exact gearing, but having had a 964 (C4) and now a 993 carrera, I can tell you the gearing is absolutely spot on for spirited driving on tight twisty b-roads. In 2nd gear at speeds of around 50mph to around 65mph you'll be in the 4k to 7k rpm powerband in 2nd gear. It'll feel like you're going much much faster!

ras62 said:

41 69 101 131 164

Thanks guys. Sounds great. I need to test drive one soon. Very few manual C2 coupes for sale....

[Steve Rance]

Out of interest, what did the OP decide to do in the end?

[g7jhp]

Steve Rance said:

Out of interest, what did the OP decide to do in the end?

Have yet to make a decision yet Steve. Ultimately I'll go and drive some examples of both and let that make up my mind.

The biggest issue is finding the right cars.

[SagMan]

Hi
Frequent lurker! I've just bought the Portsmouth 997.2 GT3. Nearly went GT4 but always wanted to scratch the 997 itch!

Had 991 GT3 , loved it, stunning car, but took profit after 6 months and want third pedal and more raw experience. Will give feedback when it arrives.
Let us know which way you go OP
Thanks

[jimmyslr]

SagMan said:

Hi
Frequent lurker! I've just bought the Portsmouth 997.2 GT3. Nearly went GT4 but always wanted to scratch the 997 itch!

Had 991 GT3 , loved it, stunning car, but took profit after 6 months and want third pedal and more raw experience. Will give feedback when it arrives.
Let us know which way you go OP
Thanks

Nice work. The white one? I thought that looked pretty good value for an OPC car. I bought one early this year - great fun and got to love that engine and the weight of the control inputs. Good luck.

[r4_rick]

Hi OP
I've got a 964 and a 996gt3, so here is my 2ps worth

Depends on what type of weekend drive you want, I'm more attached to my 964 it's 10 years almost to the day that I've owned it, it's cost a fortune to get it where it' is now but it's a superb driving machine, so nimble,sounds good, great for pottering about in and a spirited a/b road blast.

The gt3 I use a lot less, it's a club sport, so for a weekend car, the seats can be a pain, the roll cage stops you chucking things in the back like you can do in the 964, on our poorly maintained streets its firm and fidgety, but omg the engine is something else. its just a very special car and one that delivers the wow factor when you drive it

If you like a spirited weekend drive go gt3, if you want to use it all weekend 964