Struggling with PDK

[Sustenpass]

pete.g said:

Porsche call it manual mode, and the dash display changes to 'M' - so the manufacturer (and inventor) of the gearbox is also using the wrong word.

So when you go to spec your new Porsche, you are given the option to choose either Manual or PDK.

Which of these gearboxes do you think Porsche reckon is the manual one?

[blueg33]

e8_pack said:

blueg33 said:

e8_pack said:

blueg33 said:

Am I missing something? Surely in manual mode its manual, you change using the paddles rather than a stick, but its still manual.

When I test drove a pdk Cayman gets, I thought the gearbox was amazing, in manual mode I could do my favourite roads quicker than in the manual evora, but it was less engaging than using a clutch pedal and a stick

You are missing the biggest fundamental point.

The gearstick indicates your gear selection by hand and feel, you don't need to think, it's instinctive, you know where you last put the gearstick and it stays there.

Unless they start making paddles with a gear position, then you'll constantly have to:

A: look at the readout or
B: count gears

Both remove concentration from driving, B is confounded by the car auto shifting making you lose count.

Completely disagree, you can tell which gear you are in by the tone of the engine, the speed the outside is moving past, the responsiveness of the throttle. You dont need a stick for that unless you are totally inexperienced. I rarely look at the read out and never count the gears. I also dont see why its ok to touch the stick to confirm a gear but not look at a readout right in front of you.

Edited by blueg33 on Wednesday 28th December 12:51

Why would you need to touch a gearstick to remember the gear you put it in seconds before hand? Unless you have the memory of a goldfish? You don't even think with a manual/Manuel/Emmanuel.

Hard going with fanboi's.

So you have to resort to pejoratives rather than get off your high horse and remove the blinkers. It seems you struggle to understand this and prebioud posts.

Its just as easy to remember which gear its in with either paddles or a stick.

[pete.g]

Sustenpass said:

pete.g said:

Porsche call it manual mode, and the dash display changes to 'M' - so the manufacturer (and inventor) of the gearbox is also using the wrong word.

So when you go to spec your new Porsche, you are given the option to choose either Manual or PDK.

Which of these gearboxes do you think Porsche reckon is the manual one?

Manual means manual, PDK means double clutch and is an acronym derived from German.

PDK operates in either automatic or manual modes. Porsche call the manual mode; 'Manual'.


So to answer your question, one of those gearboxes all of the time, the other one at times of the driver's choosing.

As to which is preferable . . .

[Maxym]

blueg33 said:

Its just as easy to remember which gear its in with either paddles or a stick.

+1

[Whaleblue]

Maxym said:

blueg33 said:

Its just as easy to remember which gear its in with either paddles or a stick.

+1

It's possible that folk are forgetting that when they first learned to drive, on a stick manual, that it took a while to develop that memory. A few months or years pass, and that learning has become something that feels completely intuitive.

Move to paddles, and that process starts again. It's a shorter process I believe, but isn't going to set in over a handful of test drives.

So, those that have made the transition find manual mode PDK intuitive, whereas those that haven't, don't.

Just a theory, but I think it might have some credibility.

As to whether manual can be manual when it goes via a computer, well that is in the hands of each individual. For me, control over gear selected is far more important than the mechanism per se.

[Maxym]

Whaleblue said:

It's possible that folk are forgetting that when they first learned to drive, on a stick manual, that it took a while to develop that memory. A few months or years pass, and that learning has become something that feels completely intuitive.

Move to paddles, and that process starts again. It's a shorter process I believe, but isn't going to set in over a handful of test drives.

So, those that have made the transition find manual mode PDK intuitive, whereas those that haven't, don't.

Just a theory, but I think it might have some credibility.

As to whether manual can be manual when it goes via a computer, well that is in the hands of each individual. For me, control over gear selected is far more important than the mechanism per se.

Just a theory, but to me it hangs together pretty well. And I'm like you: control of gear selected more important than the mechanism. Although, as I said in an earlier post, there's nothing like three-pedal DIY.

Having said all that, with 8- or 9-speed autos (or PDK as in the new Panamera) the computer can work out which gear better than my brain 99% of the time.

[braddo]

pete.g said:

Porsche call it manual mode, and the dash display changes to 'M' - so the manufacturer (and inventor) of the gearbox is also using the wrong word.

Paddle-shift won't do - it does not take account of the ability to shift using the lever. Dual clutch applies no matter which mode is chosen.

All I can say is that when I'm driving in Sport or Sport Plus I use my hand to select the gear and that is clearly a manual operation.

'Manual mode' is probably the right description, but an automatic gearbox having a manual mode is very different from a manual gearbox.

Manual mode - the choice of gear is manual (within the limits that the computers let you make that choice). The actual gear change is all done automatically.

Manual gearbox - both the choice and the actual gear change are manual. The gear lever physically moves the gears around, the clutch pedal physically moves the clutch. The throttle is mostly computer controlled these days however.

I don't think that is semantics. Otherwise all the old Jaguars and Mercedes that have had their 'J' gates and staggered gates would be 'manuals' - PDK is the same concept, just a different (and excellent) execution.

[Magic919]

I thought this horse died some years ago.

[ATTAK Z]

Magic919 said:

I thought this horse died some years ago.

I think cmoose would say that your analogy with a horse is irrelevant

[blueg33]

Most modern cars have drive by wire throttle. Does that make the throttle automatic?

I don't think so

[Sustenpass]

braddo said:

I don't think that is semantics. Otherwise all the old Jaguars and Mercedes that have had their 'J' gates and staggered gates would be 'manuals' - PDK is the same concept, just a different (and excellent) execution.

Exactly this.

At what point did automatics become manual when you happen to feel like moving the stick? Are all those all old three speed column shift American land yachts manual? You move the lever to choose reverse after all.

Why not just admit that one likes driving automatic cars? PDK may well be 'the best of both worlds' for some people, but claiming it's a manual is really a bit odd.

[Gerber1]

Maxym said:

blueg33 said:

Its just as easy to remember which gear its in with either paddles or a stick.

+1

Not really.

As I have explained in previous posts you can select your chosen gear, only for the car to decide you didn’t really want that gear after all.

For example I want a swift but not aggressive overtake so I push the selector into manual mode and drop from 7th to 4th gear, mirror, signal, manoeuvre – the car now drops to 2nd gear because I’ve applied more than 2/3rd throttle.

Another scenario, I’m approaching a curve at 50mph, traction is limited so with the selector in manual mode I downshift to 3rd and not 2nd in order to aid traction. As the car is exiting the corner and I straighten up the steering wheel I gradually apply the throttle – the car now drops into 2nd, the tyres become overwhelmed and the car goes into an unwanted oversteer skid.

I’m pretty sure that if you drove a manual car the way PDK drives then you would fail your driving test (if not definitely your advanced), which ultimately is my point of the thread and why I originally asked for help and advice.

[Shaoxter]

Gerber1 said:

For example I want a swift but not aggressive overtake so I push the selector into manual mode and drop from 7th to 4th gear, mirror, signal, manoeuvre – the car now drops to 2nd gear because I’ve applied more than 2/3rd throttle.

Another scenario, I’m approaching a curve at 50mph, traction is limited so with the selector in manual mode I downshift to 3rd and not 2nd in order to aid traction. As the car is exiting the corner and I straighten up the steering wheel I gradually apply the throttle – the car now drops into 2nd, the tyres become overwhelmed and the car goes into an unwanted oversteer skid.

I’m pretty sure that if you drove a manual car the way PDK drives then you would fail your driving test (if not definitely your advanced), which ultimately is my point of the thread and why I originally asked for help and advice.

I've never experienced what you've described here. Maybe get your car checked out?

[J12KJR]

Gerber
As I have explained in previous posts you can select your chosen gear, only for the car to decide you didn’t really want that gear after all.

For example I want a swift but not aggressive overtake so I push the selector into manual mode and drop from 7th to 4th gear, mirror, signal, manoeuvre – the car now drops to 2nd gear because I’ve applied more than 2/3rd throttle.

Another scenario, I’m approaching a curve at 50mph, traction is limited so with the selector in manual mode I downshift to 3rd and not 2nd in order to aid traction. As the car is exiting the corner and I straighten up the steering wheel I gradually apply the throttle – the car now drops into 2nd, the tyres become overwhelmed and the car goes into an unwanted oversteer skid.

I’m pretty sure that if you drove a manual car the way PDK drives then you would fail your driving test (if not definitely your advanced), which ultimately is my point of the thread and why I originally asked for help and advice.
[/quote]

Cayman S & 991 C4S both with PDK and neither used to change for me in manual mode, my understanding was that if you put the throttle to the floor then it would down change as it was deemed that an emergency acceleration was needed.
Perhaps your car needs checking out or maybe you are pushing the accelerator pedal further down than you think you are when you try these things.

Edited by J12KJR on Thursday 29th December 12:16

[Whaleblue]

Gerber1 said:

Not really.

As I have explained in previous posts you can select your chosen gear, only for the car to decide you didn’t really want that gear after all.
...

The first point is simply not a correct description of how PDK is meant to operate in full manual mode. I think you may be confusing full manual mode, where the central selector stick is pushed over to the left, with using the paddles to temporarily override the automatic selection.

As pointed out in the above post, if yours is doing as you say when in full manual mode, take it in to your OPC to get it checked out.

Hopefully this post will be taken as intended, helpful advice.

[blueg33]

Gerber1 said:

Maxym said:

blueg33 said:

Its just as easy to remember which gear its in with either paddles or a stick.

+1

Not really.

As I have explained in previous posts you can select your chosen gear, only for the car to decide you didn’t really want that gear after all.

For example I want a swift but not aggressive overtake so I push the selector into manual mode and drop from 7th to 4th gear, mirror, signal, manoeuvre – the car now drops to 2nd gear because I’ve applied more than 2/3rd throttle.

Another scenario, I’m approaching a curve at 50mph, traction is limited so with the selector in manual mode I downshift to 3rd and not 2nd in order to aid traction. As the car is exiting the corner and I straighten up the steering wheel I gradually apply the throttle – the car now drops into 2nd, the tyres become overwhelmed and the car goes into an unwanted oversteer skid.

I’m pretty sure that if you drove a manual car the way PDK drives then you would fail your driving test (if not definitely your advanced), which ultimately is my point of the thread and why I originally asked for help and advice.

Not sure how all that means you don't know what gear the car is in?

But what you say above is definitely not my experience of PDK, nor of the DSG in Mrs B's Octavia (this only changes for you if you a. bit the rev limiter or b. are going to stall). On the evora the IPS in manual mode only changes when you pull the paddle, or to prevent a stall.

As others have said, it sounds as if your PDK isn't behaving correctly.

[sidicks]

Gerber1 said:

Not really.

As I have explained in previous posts you can select your chosen gear, only for the car to decide you didn’t really want that gear after all.

As explained to you, in manual / sports mode this is not the case - either your car or your driver is faulty...

Gerber1 said:

For example I want a swift but not aggressive overtake so I push the selector into manual mode and drop from 7th to 4th gear, mirror, signal, manoeuvre – the car now drops to 2nd gear because I’ve applied more than 2/3rd throttle.

Another scenario, I’m approaching a curve at 50mph, traction is limited so with the selector in manual mode I downshift to 3rd and not 2nd in order to aid traction. As the car is exiting the corner and I straighten up the steering wheel I gradually apply the throttle – the car now drops into 2nd, the tyres become overwhelmed and the car goes into an unwanted oversteer skid.

I’m pretty sure that if you drove a manual car the way PDK drives then you would fail your driving test (if not definitely your advanced), which ultimately is my point of the thread and why I originally asked for help and advice.

I'm pretty sure you need to get your car checked!

PS - are you still 'pulling skids' on the road?!

[sidicks]

braddo said:

'Manual mode' is probably the right description, but an automatic gearbox having a manual mode is very different from a manual gearbox.

Manual mode - the choice of gear is manual (within the limits that the computers let you make that choice). The actual gear change is all done automatically.

Manual gearbox - both the choice and the actual gear change are manual. The gear lever physically moves the gears around, the clutch pedal physically moves the clutch. The throttle is mostly computer controlled these days however.

I don't think that is semantics. Otherwise all the old Jaguars and Mercedes that have had their 'J' gates and staggered gates would be 'manuals' - PDK is the same concept, just a different (and excellent) execution.

Which is exactly the point we are making!

[ATM]

With PDK can I shift down 2 gears at once - either in auto or manual?

I think if I hit the little clicker under the accelerator then it could go down several gears. I guess the same thing applies to manual mode. I never use manual mode.

I read somewhere on PH - so it must be true - some guy mentioned he was at a Porsche track event playing in modern Caysters and he asked one of the Porsche instructor types about using the manual mode and he said its better to just leave it in auto because the car is clever-er-er than the human driving.

[braddo]

sidicks said:

Which is exactly the point we are making!

Being able to choose the gear doesn't make it a manual gearbox.