Here is the reason you get an inspection done...
Discussion
OK - so, short preamble is this... I'm a current 996 3.4 C2 manual owner (at least for a few more days! sale has now been agreed) and in the market for a tiptronic having cross shopped the likely alternatives (M3 etc) and come up wanting. Tiptronic wouldn't have been my first choice but budget won't stretch to a PDK and sticking with manual not an option because of the reason for selling mine in the first place (bad ankle).
Anyway... I've gone through every advert within a 60 mile radius of my location on AT/PH and each of the cars had something wrong; either significant undisclosed (and long running) leaks/mechanical issues or gaps in history/bills, missed services etc. Several described as 'mint' but anything but (I'm not fussy.... I can live with the usual wear and tear, but a dent an inch across in 3 panels on the same car is not "mint".
So I threw the net winder and looked at a car up in Glasgow.
On paper all the right things - 3.6 with 128k miles priced for a good example and based on the original description plus chat with the salesman a stack of invoices and full history. Pictures seemed to back it up and show a car that was generally looked after but silver is always a pig to check on photos.
Wanted to use Peter Morgan @ Porsche Inspections to do the checks but he does't go that far north so pointed me towards Stuart Patterson @ SP Autobahn. Stuart is seriously busy and that means you have to exercise a little patience as he is always juggling multiple jobs, not neccesarily quick to return calls etc but thats a good sign in itself - bad garages don't have more work than they can take on!
Anyway - arranged for him to go to the garage, retrieve it, drive back to his, do normal inspection + bore scope (vendor agreed to this as it's a pre requisite for me on this mileage/engine), then drop it back. After that he was going to call me after with his outline response and then follow up with a written report.
In the end I had a short 5 min chat with him around 5pm (because of all the snow/weather from Doris, his day wasn't going great!)and a much longer call at 9:30pm when he got home to apologise for the a earlier conversation and go through the report. FFull credit to him for calling me back on the day as I really wasn't expecting it until morning but he didn't want to leave me hanging.
So... up to this point, all good. Would highly recommend Stuart, did a great job of the inspection especially considering circumstances on the day.
As for the Car? That really was not as described.
Lots of cosmetic stuff (tons of chips, but also more serious dents - one an inch across - and blisters) that actually I could have lived with, or dealt with later after some negotiation on price, but I had been told it had been prepped for sale and was mint. Seriously annoying and whilst it in itself doesn't cosh any deal it injures trust.
However both exhausts shot (common problem, my car had one going when I originally got it hence why it has the nice shiny Dansk system now; drivers side is blowing badly and passengers side was split and they should really have declared when I specifically asked over the phone as they had it inspected by a porsche specialist they use - costs circa £1,000 to put right) all discs corroded on inner faces which again is common problem (mine have recently been done) and again should have declared as it's supposedly been inspected by a Porsche expert prior to me sending in my guy - £700). There was a bunch of other misc bits, brake lines that had corroded badly, exhaust brackets fractured etc that will need doing before next MOT for it to pass so say circa £2,500 in immediate work. None would be an issue if the price reflected, but it just doesn't as it had been priced at the mid-higher end for the mileage.
There were also some irregularities in running hours versus events; could be a result of a flash he thought, unlikely to be closck simply because why would you and then put it on that mileage? invoices are consistent with mileage.
Then comes the worst part; the car had been into a Porche Main Dealer 900 miles ago for a limp home problem. They did a fluid and filter change in the auto box, cleared codes, sent them away. 450 miles after that it goes again, back in, same work. None of this disclosed over the phone, again when I specifically asked if the box had been serviced. No current codes but they could have been cleared.
Thats just 450 miles before now; add this all up and you have an owner that saw big bills coming up and I think, personally, he dumped the car.
Anyway... I know we don't do name and shame here so I won't. The message however is that whilst I would have picked up some of this myself from looking around and checking paperwork, without getting it into the air/pulling the codes I wouldn't have the full picture. The inspection potentially saved me from a world of hurt.
Also - still not quite sure what the vendor thought they were doing here.... it's not like like these issues were unlikely to be uncovered on inspection or soon after driving away if you were particularly trusting. If it was priced right I might be tempted to take it and do the work to bring it up to code (I'm not adverse to that and at least you know where you stand). But I can't see them dropping £5k+ off the price to cover the work and the risk of the gearbox, or say £3k and putting a decent warranty on it. No margin for them. Suspect they'll wait for another mug (am I being cynincal? possibly).
P.S. Ironically, borescope came back clear
Anyway... I've gone through every advert within a 60 mile radius of my location on AT/PH and each of the cars had something wrong; either significant undisclosed (and long running) leaks/mechanical issues or gaps in history/bills, missed services etc. Several described as 'mint' but anything but (I'm not fussy.... I can live with the usual wear and tear, but a dent an inch across in 3 panels on the same car is not "mint".
So I threw the net winder and looked at a car up in Glasgow.
On paper all the right things - 3.6 with 128k miles priced for a good example and based on the original description plus chat with the salesman a stack of invoices and full history. Pictures seemed to back it up and show a car that was generally looked after but silver is always a pig to check on photos.
Wanted to use Peter Morgan @ Porsche Inspections to do the checks but he does't go that far north so pointed me towards Stuart Patterson @ SP Autobahn. Stuart is seriously busy and that means you have to exercise a little patience as he is always juggling multiple jobs, not neccesarily quick to return calls etc but thats a good sign in itself - bad garages don't have more work than they can take on!
Anyway - arranged for him to go to the garage, retrieve it, drive back to his, do normal inspection + bore scope (vendor agreed to this as it's a pre requisite for me on this mileage/engine), then drop it back. After that he was going to call me after with his outline response and then follow up with a written report.
In the end I had a short 5 min chat with him around 5pm (because of all the snow/weather from Doris, his day wasn't going great!)and a much longer call at 9:30pm when he got home to apologise for the a earlier conversation and go through the report. FFull credit to him for calling me back on the day as I really wasn't expecting it until morning but he didn't want to leave me hanging.
So... up to this point, all good. Would highly recommend Stuart, did a great job of the inspection especially considering circumstances on the day.
As for the Car? That really was not as described.
Lots of cosmetic stuff (tons of chips, but also more serious dents - one an inch across - and blisters) that actually I could have lived with, or dealt with later after some negotiation on price, but I had been told it had been prepped for sale and was mint. Seriously annoying and whilst it in itself doesn't cosh any deal it injures trust.
However both exhausts shot (common problem, my car had one going when I originally got it hence why it has the nice shiny Dansk system now; drivers side is blowing badly and passengers side was split and they should really have declared when I specifically asked over the phone as they had it inspected by a porsche specialist they use - costs circa £1,000 to put right) all discs corroded on inner faces which again is common problem (mine have recently been done) and again should have declared as it's supposedly been inspected by a Porsche expert prior to me sending in my guy - £700). There was a bunch of other misc bits, brake lines that had corroded badly, exhaust brackets fractured etc that will need doing before next MOT for it to pass so say circa £2,500 in immediate work. None would be an issue if the price reflected, but it just doesn't as it had been priced at the mid-higher end for the mileage.
There were also some irregularities in running hours versus events; could be a result of a flash he thought, unlikely to be closck simply because why would you and then put it on that mileage? invoices are consistent with mileage.
Then comes the worst part; the car had been into a Porche Main Dealer 900 miles ago for a limp home problem. They did a fluid and filter change in the auto box, cleared codes, sent them away. 450 miles after that it goes again, back in, same work. None of this disclosed over the phone, again when I specifically asked if the box had been serviced. No current codes but they could have been cleared.
Thats just 450 miles before now; add this all up and you have an owner that saw big bills coming up and I think, personally, he dumped the car.
Anyway... I know we don't do name and shame here so I won't. The message however is that whilst I would have picked up some of this myself from looking around and checking paperwork, without getting it into the air/pulling the codes I wouldn't have the full picture. The inspection potentially saved me from a world of hurt.
Also - still not quite sure what the vendor thought they were doing here.... it's not like like these issues were unlikely to be uncovered on inspection or soon after driving away if you were particularly trusting. If it was priced right I might be tempted to take it and do the work to bring it up to code (I'm not adverse to that and at least you know where you stand). But I can't see them dropping £5k+ off the price to cover the work and the risk of the gearbox, or say £3k and putting a decent warranty on it. No margin for them. Suspect they'll wait for another mug (am I being cynincal? possibly).
P.S. Ironically, borescope came back clear
(I haven't included the list of 'soon' items as well - rads are a year away, top mounts same etc as I consider those par the course... but there was alot of saved up preventative work that hadn't been done. Plus a few other oddities/niggles with trim that individually aren't much but add up to a larger picture of an owner that seems to have mentally checked out a year before disposal).
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Agree with you that punters don't respond well to honest adverts generally.... and if it had been the usual undisclosed cosmetic nibbles I'd be less rankled. But to price it as if it was average to good, when you know it's actually hiding some big bills and issues and should be 5k less isn't just usual salesman bravado..... it's getting into some very dodgy ground.Would I have thought about buying it with this amount of work outstanding if priced properly? at this distance, and being honest, no. Too far to risk it. However when I bought my 2000 C2 the gearbox, the oil sender and the exhaust all needed doing - the private seller priced it properly, I bought it with eyes open and got the work done straight away. Ended up with a great car and because I put it into the Northway guys I didn't have to worry about the work (they've always been straight with me).
Now Private sellers can be just as bad as traders, so I think it's just a case of trying to figure out reason for sale and the nature of the person you are dealing with but it's bloody hard to do that over the phone.
I feel your frustration, I really do, especially with used cars described as "mint" (they never are) and with traders who are ignorant (willfully or not) of the condition of their stock. Was it at a Porsche specialist or a general trader?
However I wonder whether your expectations of a 128k mile car were a little high? From your description a quick once around the car on foot or some close up high res photos might have suggested the condition wasn't entirely consistent with the description. And remember the iceberg principle - for the 10% you can see, there'll be 90% you can't. If it wasn't the items uncovered, would it have been the wheel bearings, the gearshift cables, the clutch, the suspension bushes?
You can't go getting a PPI done on every car more than 60 miles away that sounds ok or you'll end up with nothing left to buy one. It's a conundrum and I sympathise. Personally I prefer buying privately because, as you suggest, too often at this end of things cars are "offloaded" via part ex or auction to the trade for a reason.
I hope you find the right car - good luck!
However I wonder whether your expectations of a 128k mile car were a little high? From your description a quick once around the car on foot or some close up high res photos might have suggested the condition wasn't entirely consistent with the description. And remember the iceberg principle - for the 10% you can see, there'll be 90% you can't. If it wasn't the items uncovered, would it have been the wheel bearings, the gearshift cables, the clutch, the suspension bushes?
You can't go getting a PPI done on every car more than 60 miles away that sounds ok or you'll end up with nothing left to buy one. It's a conundrum and I sympathise. Personally I prefer buying privately because, as you suggest, too often at this end of things cars are "offloaded" via part ex or auction to the trade for a reason.
I hope you find the right car - good luck!
I would just like to register my offence at the words "all car dealers are crooks". How ever upset or annoyed you are and whatever experiences you may have had in the past - that is grossly unfair and unrepresentative.
By all means use the words "many" or even "most" but not "all" - it is simply not true.
Baz
By all means use the words "many" or even "most" but not "all" - it is simply not true.
Baz
griffter said:
I feel your frustration, I really do, especially with used cars described as "mint" (they never are) and with traders who are ignorant (willfully or not) of the condition of their stock. Was it at a Porsche specialist or a general trader?
However I wonder whether your expectations of a 128k mile car were a little high? From your description a quick once around the car on foot or some close up high res photos might have suggested the condition wasn't entirely consistent with the description. And remember the iceberg principle - for the 10% you can see, there'll be 90% you can't. If it wasn't the items uncovered, would it have been the wheel bearings, the gearshift cables, the clutch, the suspension bushes?
You can't go getting a PPI done on every car more than 60 miles away that sounds ok or you'll end up with nothing left to buy one. It's a conundrum and I sympathise. Personally I prefer buying privately because, as you suggest, too often at this end of things cars are "offloaded" via part ex or auction to the trade for a reason.
I hope you find the right car - good luck!
Not a Porsche specialist, a dealer that deals with high value/high performance cars exclusively.However I wonder whether your expectations of a 128k mile car were a little high? From your description a quick once around the car on foot or some close up high res photos might have suggested the condition wasn't entirely consistent with the description. And remember the iceberg principle - for the 10% you can see, there'll be 90% you can't. If it wasn't the items uncovered, would it have been the wheel bearings, the gearshift cables, the clutch, the suspension bushes?
You can't go getting a PPI done on every car more than 60 miles away that sounds ok or you'll end up with nothing left to buy one. It's a conundrum and I sympathise. Personally I prefer buying privately because, as you suggest, too often at this end of things cars are "offloaded" via part ex or auction to the trade for a reason.
I hope you find the right car - good luck!
Normally I would have gone around the car myself first - but it's over 400 miles away
So I went through my expectations with the vendor and he mentioned it'd be put in with a local porsche specialist (named, but again I'm not going to drag that out here) who had gone over the car and corrected all major issues. When I clarified that with him he insisted there was nothing that needed doing within the next year.Now it could be that the other specialist was given a brief to get it through the MOT etc, but with the brakes pretty marginal and the exhaust blowing it would never have passed.
The PPI was instructed based on all of the above; if I had to take a day out or even fly over the weekend and do all of this it really wouldn't have been a whole lot cheaper, and I wouldn't have got the borescope done if it'd have "passed" initial checks. This is almost the exception that proves the rule and reinforced my view (like yours) that private sales are the way to go for these and there is no substitution for getting there yourself.... just running out of viable cars.
As for expectations - definately eyes wide open, as I said I've just sold my 2000 C2 at 153k
you have to be realistic about cosmetics and usual wear and tear but this went far beyond that.GT3cs said:
POORCARDEALER said:
Is the customer who dumped it into the trade not rotten?
This seems by far the more likely scenario . I doubt the dealer even knows it's had gearbox issues . hartech said:
I would just like to register my offence at the words "all car dealers are crooks". How ever upset or annoyed you are and whatever experiences you may have had in the past - that is grossly unfair and unrepresentative.
By all means use the words "many" or even "most" but not "all" - it is simply not true.
Baz
Hi Baz - not a phrase I think I've used, but I completely agree. There are "good guys" in this market; without sounding like a broken record there is you, Northway, RPM and a few others who I generally take on their word precisely because you've worked hard to get a good reputation in the market and it'd do none of you any good to try a stunt like this.By all means use the words "many" or even "most" but not "all" - it is simply not true.
Baz
Unfortunately, there are bad dealers too.
For what it's worth... I don't think I'd bother to PPI a car from any of the names I have listed because I would expect it to be as described.
Discombobulate said:
A 125000 mile 996? All sounds par for the course for a car that age in my opinion. Owner wasn't keeping up with maintenance and unloaded.
Second sentence I won't dispute.First sentence though? A car is only as good as it's owner allows it to be. MY 153k C2 is leaving me better than it was when I bought it, carrying no big bills for the next owner. Car's don't get to 100K and then suddenly start to uncontrollably desolve.
EDIT: Again, I'm not expecting showcar here.... but working brakes and a non-blowing exhaust would be nice
As would a gearbox that may make another 450 miles....Edited by MrJingles705 on Saturday 25th February 13:05
Nowadays it's so easy to ask for digital pics to be taken of specific crucial areas ( i.e. Discs, brake pipes , rads/ condensers , rms area on engine , front bumper , exhausts etc etc.) and scrutinise these prior to undertaking further expense. I would think anyone with knowledge/ previous experience of these cars at this age would be able to rough estimate the nessessity/ cost of refurbishment. All very important when considering purchasing and running these cars. My advice is use every method possible to save time & expense. Good luck with your purchase in the future...
MrJingles705 said:
Second sentence I won't dispute.
First sentence though? A car is only as good as it's owner allows it to be. MY 153k C2 is leaving me better than it was when I bought it, carrying no big bills for the next owner. Car's don't get to 100K and then suddenly start to uncontrollably desolve.
EDIT: Again, I'm not expecting showcar here.... but working brakes and a non-blowing exhaust would be nice As would a gearbox that may make another 450 miles....
Unfortunately owners like you (and me) are in the minority. Most 996s of this age / mileage will be tired and ragged around the edges - sad but true. Caveat emptor. You were right to get it inspected but you are shopping in tiger country at that budget.First sentence though? A car is only as good as it's owner allows it to be. MY 153k C2 is leaving me better than it was when I bought it, carrying no big bills for the next owner. Car's don't get to 100K and then suddenly start to uncontrollably desolve.
EDIT: Again, I'm not expecting showcar here.... but working brakes and a non-blowing exhaust would be nice
As would a gearbox that may make another 450 miles....Edited by MrJingles705 on Saturday 25th February 13:05
Polome said:
Nowadays it's so easy to ask for digital pics to be taken of specific crucial areas ( i.e. Discs, brake pipes , rads/ condensers , rms area on engine , front bumper , exhausts etc etc.) and scrutinise these prior to undertaking further expense. I would think anyone with knowledge/ previous experience of these cars at this age would be able to rough estimate the nessessity/ cost of refurbishment. All very important when considering purchasing and running these cars. My advice is use every method possible to save time & expense. Good luck with your purchase in the future...
Easy to get a photo of the RMS? Really? (If you intend to say the area underneath where it eventually leaks out i'd argue that nearly anyone who got that far would clean up signs of the oil before picturing). Rads can be a pig to get a look at as they are stacked and so i'd maybe not get what i wanted. And so on.The list of things to check is quite long; vendors, at leadt in my experience so far, generally aren't inclined to put the car up a ramp and snap away for me. They'd rather wait for another seller who isn't asking questions/maybe not aware of the issues and at this price they'll probably find one.
The general point you are making is good however; i just don't think it eould have helped in this instance.
nsa said:
Take your time and wait for a good one. I would keep an open mind on the 3.4; the additional torque and Merc gearbox in the 3.6 aren't enough to restrict the search IMO. Even if the 722 has 250 maps, it's still not going to be better than you changing gears yourself.
Coming around to that idea in a lot of ways right now....Alternatively pay top dollar and go for peace of mind:
https://rpmtechnik.co.uk/sales/vehicle/996-carrera...
- IMS has been done
- Low temp thermostat done
- All services, including full service of the box
- other advisory items/things coming due soon addressed - circa £1k in mis parts like brake lines etc addressed as prep for sale
- bores all inspected
- whole lot warrantied
- history impeccible
Edited by MrJingles705 on Monday 27th February 09:26
It looks like a cracker. Full spec and RPM seem to have a good reputation. Hertfordshire isn't far from Berkshire is it?
If you test drive the car at least you will have tried the later Tip box. You can always make them an offer - most people don't want the auto so you're in a relatively strong position. The money will be forgotten after a while anyway. I overpaid for mine and don't regret it because I haven't seen another one for sale just like it since. Mine is poverty spec, no sunroof and the only options ticked were Tiptronic and Litronic headlights.
If you test drive the car at least you will have tried the later Tip box. You can always make them an offer - most people don't want the auto so you're in a relatively strong position. The money will be forgotten after a while anyway. I overpaid for mine and don't regret it because I haven't seen another one for sale just like it since. Mine is poverty spec, no sunroof and the only options ticked were Tiptronic and Litronic headlights.
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