996 engine/transmission failures - action time
Discussion
You are all big boys now and I am not telling anyone what to do - just passing on the benefit of my experience. I don't mind if anyone dissagrees - you are very welcome to do whatever you want if you ever get into a similar situation to Mr phish.
If you do, I hope - like him - you have insurance or some other advantage - if not - just do whatever you want and if you win - great and if you don't - I am sorry but don't say you were not warned.
This forum is not a competition in which we should argue until we all agree who is right and who is wrong. Sometimes the same point of view can turn out to be right or wrong depending upon, luck, fate, the quality of professional help etc - but please don't try and make it a place where no one can offer an alternative for all you big boys to consider when you make your decisions.
Just because people have different points of view or experiences does not mean that they are trying to fault someone elses position - just that they are offering another point of view or experience - for consideration.
I do know that if all everyone does is blindly follow natural justice or fair play or what the Germans do - and always goes for litigation - then a lot of people will make a lot of solicitors and barristers wealthy and a large number will lose overall - that's all.
Happy Xmas everyone
Baz
If you do, I hope - like him - you have insurance or some other advantage - if not - just do whatever you want and if you win - great and if you don't - I am sorry but don't say you were not warned.
This forum is not a competition in which we should argue until we all agree who is right and who is wrong. Sometimes the same point of view can turn out to be right or wrong depending upon, luck, fate, the quality of professional help etc - but please don't try and make it a place where no one can offer an alternative for all you big boys to consider when you make your decisions.
Just because people have different points of view or experiences does not mean that they are trying to fault someone elses position - just that they are offering another point of view or experience - for consideration.
I do know that if all everyone does is blindly follow natural justice or fair play or what the Germans do - and always goes for litigation - then a lot of people will make a lot of solicitors and barristers wealthy and a large number will lose overall - that's all.
Happy Xmas everyone
Baz
bcnrml said:
So, Vesuvius and Baz, should Mr Phish back down? Or should he have never even started anyway?
Wonder why Porsche behaves differently in the US and Germany compared to the UK (prices, warranties, extras, etc)?
Could it be because the US is litigious, the Germans demanding (rightly so), both markets having consumers that are determined to get what they paid for (and expressing it by fighting when they must, as the culture allows)?
Meanwhile we in the UK, culturally, think it is okay to back down and accept it, because "it isn't worth the hassle."
Sorry, guys, I'm with Mr Phish's position. If you are well prepared and the evidence backs you, you will win. Even some of Vesuvius' posts on here suggest as much.
If you lose, just remember the McDonalds three (or two or four - cannot recall the number). You think the McDonalds brand didn't suffer orders of magnitude greater than their "victory"?
I really, really wish we'd stop caving in when we have good grounds to fight.
If he can afford to lose, and pay his own costs and Porsche's at 400 an hour then yes he should fight it.Wonder why Porsche behaves differently in the US and Germany compared to the UK (prices, warranties, extras, etc)?
Could it be because the US is litigious, the Germans demanding (rightly so), both markets having consumers that are determined to get what they paid for (and expressing it by fighting when they must, as the culture allows)?
Meanwhile we in the UK, culturally, think it is okay to back down and accept it, because "it isn't worth the hassle."
Sorry, guys, I'm with Mr Phish's position. If you are well prepared and the evidence backs you, you will win. Even some of Vesuvius' posts on here suggest as much.
If you lose, just remember the McDonalds three (or two or four - cannot recall the number). You think the McDonalds brand didn't suffer orders of magnitude greater than their "victory"?
I really, really wish we'd stop caving in when we have good grounds to fight.
Litigation is a risky gamble. It always is. The only people who always win are my profession.
It's not a question of it "not being worth the hassle..." it's a question of it "not being worth the risk of the consequences of losing."
Hartech is right. Before contemplating litigation you need to make a judgement call on whether the risk is worth the potential reward. The McD's soapdodgers took no risk, as they were penniless dole scroungers. They had nothing to lose. If Mr Phish fights this all the way and loses, he's looking at maybe 50k in costs. Maybe he should consider chalking it down to experience.
Principles are great, but I've seen plenty of people bankrupt because of them.
Happy Xmas.
Vesuvius 996 said:
bcnrml said:
So, Vesuvius and Baz, should Mr Phish back down? Or should he have never even started anyway?
Wonder why Porsche behaves differently in the US and Germany compared to the UK (prices, warranties, extras, etc)?
Could it be because the US is litigious, the Germans demanding (rightly so), both markets having consumers that are determined to get what they paid for (and expressing it by fighting when they must, as the culture allows)?
Meanwhile we in the UK, culturally, think it is okay to back down and accept it, because "it isn't worth the hassle."
Sorry, guys, I'm with Mr Phish's position. If you are well prepared and the evidence backs you, you will win. Even some of Vesuvius' posts on here suggest as much.
If you lose, just remember the McDonalds three (or two or four - cannot recall the number). You think the McDonalds brand didn't suffer orders of magnitude greater than their "victory"?
I really, really wish we'd stop caving in when we have good grounds to fight.
If he can afford to lose, and pay his own costs and Porsche's at 400 an hour then yes he should fight it.Wonder why Porsche behaves differently in the US and Germany compared to the UK (prices, warranties, extras, etc)?
Could it be because the US is litigious, the Germans demanding (rightly so), both markets having consumers that are determined to get what they paid for (and expressing it by fighting when they must, as the culture allows)?
Meanwhile we in the UK, culturally, think it is okay to back down and accept it, because "it isn't worth the hassle."
Sorry, guys, I'm with Mr Phish's position. If you are well prepared and the evidence backs you, you will win. Even some of Vesuvius' posts on here suggest as much.
If you lose, just remember the McDonalds three (or two or four - cannot recall the number). You think the McDonalds brand didn't suffer orders of magnitude greater than their "victory"?
I really, really wish we'd stop caving in when we have good grounds to fight.
Litigation is a risky gamble. It always is. The only people who always win are my profession.
It's not a question of it "not being worth the hassle..." it's a question of it "not being worth the risk of the consequences of losing."
Hartech is right. Before contemplating litigation you need to make a judgement call on whether the risk is worth the potential reward. The McD's soapdodgers took no risk, as they were penniless dole scroungers. They had nothing to lose. If Mr Phish fights this all the way and loses, he's looking at maybe 50k in costs. Maybe he should consider chalking it down to experience.
Principles are great, but I've seen plenty of people bankrupt because of them.
Happy Xmas.
I really don't know why it's not popular in the UK. Maybe it would be too expensive there - like most things.
Silver993tt said:
I know in Germany most people have an insurance policy to protect them from commercial situations like this. It costs them 3-400 euros a year typically. My colleagues here use it regularly for things such as bad kitchen installations, disputes with an old employer and also ongoing problems with cars.
I really don't know why it's not popular in the UK. Maybe it would be too expensive there - like most things.
Probably - it seems people prefer to buy extended warranties (insurance) for white goods instead of for general household problems, I guess......I really don't know why it's not popular in the UK. Maybe it would be too expensive there - like most things.
Baz, I am not being simply contrary regarding your position. I just think that if Mr Phish has the evidence and a good case, he should pursue it fully, just as butcherboy did.
On all the occasions that I have serviced or repaired my cars on the Continent, I've never had the rubbish of new discs and brakes. Only ever in the UK! You think this might be because they can - and do - get away with it??
Vesuvius: Freedom has never been free. Those people of whom you write so disparagingly might be regarded as far braver than you or I (you've been as dismissive of the rich going to Bali as the poor in the UK). Whatever their economic circumstances, they earned my respect, and I do not share your views in that regard.
Edited by bcnrml on Saturday 22 December 10:00
Hi, I also bought my '98 996 C2 3.4l because I loved these cars. I had it for one week when I had to take it back to the car yard as it had a very bad oil smell. It had 86,000km on the dial (53,000mls). The car stayed in the workshop for more than a week. I was told to take out extended warranty to save myself expensive repair costs. I have driven it for more than 20,000km since, with no problem. I do get that rattling sound when I start it up from cold. However when it ahs reached normal operating temperature the rattle disappears. I'm nervous the engine will fail. Is this rattling sound a signal that the worst will happen. I now have 123,000km (76,000 mls). Anyone out there with a rattling sound when they start the engine from cold.
Vesuvius 996 said:
bcnrml said:
So, Vesuvius and Baz, should Mr Phish back down? Or should he have never even started anyway?
Wonder why Porsche behaves differently in the US and Germany compared to the UK (prices, warranties, extras, etc)?
Could it be because the US is litigious, the Germans demanding (rightly so), both markets having consumers that are determined to get what they paid for (and expressing it by fighting when they must, as the culture allows)?
Meanwhile we in the UK, culturally, think it is okay to back down and accept it, because "it isn't worth the hassle."
Sorry, guys, I'm with Mr Phish's position. If you are well prepared and the evidence backs you, you will win. Even some of Vesuvius' posts on here suggest as much.
If you lose, just remember the McDonalds three (or two or four - cannot recall the number). You think the McDonalds brand didn't suffer orders of magnitude greater than their "victory"?
I really, really wish we'd stop caving in when we have good grounds to fight.
If he can afford to lose, and pay his own costs and Porsche's at 400 an hour then yes he should fight it.Wonder why Porsche behaves differently in the US and Germany compared to the UK (prices, warranties, extras, etc)?
Could it be because the US is litigious, the Germans demanding (rightly so), both markets having consumers that are determined to get what they paid for (and expressing it by fighting when they must, as the culture allows)?
Meanwhile we in the UK, culturally, think it is okay to back down and accept it, because "it isn't worth the hassle."
Sorry, guys, I'm with Mr Phish's position. If you are well prepared and the evidence backs you, you will win. Even some of Vesuvius' posts on here suggest as much.
If you lose, just remember the McDonalds three (or two or four - cannot recall the number). You think the McDonalds brand didn't suffer orders of magnitude greater than their "victory"?
I really, really wish we'd stop caving in when we have good grounds to fight.
Litigation is a risky gamble. It always is. The only people who always win are my profession.
It's not a question of it "not being worth the hassle..." it's a question of it "not being worth the risk of the consequences of losing."
Hartech is right. Before contemplating litigation you need to make a judgement call on whether the risk is worth the potential reward. The McD's soapdodgers took no risk, as they were penniless dole scroungers. They had nothing to lose. If Mr Phish fights this all the way and loses, he's looking at maybe 50k in costs. Maybe he should consider chalking it down to experience.
Principles are great, but I've seen plenty of people bankrupt because of them.
I won't go into too much detail yet, as I want to make sure the money is safely in the bank which it should be in a few days time, but I did win and it was the OPC (or more accurately their insurers) who have had to pay me the compensation and cover the costs.
I had indisputable evidence that the OPC had been negligent, but they still chose to fight it all the way to the court steps, at which point they caved in (as predicted) and then continued to stall and delay the inevitable settlement for several months more.
They could have saved themselves a lot of money if they had simply admitted they were wrong in the first place but the usual OPC/Porsche arrogant attitude took over and they lost.
I might start another thread with a few more details if anyone here is interested.
The bottom line is that Porsche and many of their dealers are getting a terrible reputation for the way they treat customers. Despite what I and others say on these forums, the product isn't half bad but the way we are treated if something goes wrong is disgusting and needs to change.
If you are considering action against Porsche or an OPC for negligence, I would heed Vesuvius' advice as unless it's a small enough claim to be handled by the SCC, you will inevitably be in for a long fight and escalating costs. BUT, if you get a good engineer, a good lawyer and you are sure of your position then go for it. There are ways and means your exposure to the costs can be minimised.
If you believe in justice then stand up for your principles and fight!
Pikesplus said:
Hi, I also bought my '98 996 C2 3.4l because I loved these cars. I had it for one week when I had to take it back to the car yard as it had a very bad oil smell. It had 86,000km on the dial (53,000mls). The car stayed in the workshop for more than a week. I was told to take out extended warranty to save myself expensive repair costs. I have driven it for more than 20,000km since, with no problem. I do get that rattling sound when I start it up from cold. However when it ahs reached normal operating temperature the rattle disappears. I'm nervous the engine will fail. Is this rattling sound a signal that the worst will happen. I now have 123,000km (76,000 mls). Anyone out there with a rattling sound when they start the engine from cold.
OPC has advised previously that some rattling sound is perfectly normal from cold, do you garage your car as this makes the noise more noticeable?Bennno
Mr Phish said:
I might start another thread with a few more details if anyone here is interested.
Yes please, very interested and I expect this would be useful for most of us on here. Mr Phish said:
The bottom line is that Porsche and many of their dealers are getting a terrible reputation for the way they treat customers. Despite what I and others say on these forums, the product isn't half bad but the way we are treated if something goes wrong is disgusting and needs to change.
This sums up my position entirely, as does your determination to see errant firms brought to book. Some in this thread cautioned against litigation (roll over and accept such rubbish, eh, and pay a premium too?). Well, to those of you against his position, here's a result clearly worth documenting. And perhaps learning from.
Delighted that you've won.
Mikeoupe said:
Mr Phish said:
I might start another thread with a few more details if anyone here is interested.
More details would be goodYours wasn't the car that was featured in a 911 mag recently .. The one the OPC ran without oil after 'servicing' it?
I know the article was a bit one sided , but I was still shocked at how the car was treated while it lay idle in the possession of that dealership.
Ballcock said:
Mikeoupe said:
Mr Phish said:
I might start another thread with a few more details if anyone here is interested.
More details would be goodYours wasn't the car that was featured in a 911 mag recently .. The one the OPC ran without oil after 'servicing' it?
I know the article was a bit one sided , but I was still shocked at how the car was treated while it lay idle in the possession of that dealership.
Mr Phish said:
Ballcock said:
Mikeoupe said:
Mr Phish said:
I might start another thread with a few more details if anyone here is interested.
More details would be goodYours wasn't the car that was featured in a 911 mag recently .. The one the OPC ran without oil after 'servicing' it?
I know the article was a bit one sided , but I was still shocked at how the car was treated while it lay idle in the possession of that dealership.
tballs , they really know how to give you the message that your car was unwelcome ! The sodden cardboard box of parts (mostly not from your car!) really says it all .. shower o' shoites. I'm glad you're near the end of the road with this , I'm sure it was a long and torturous one , I'm also delighted that someone has resurrected the car from a definite junk yard end ... It looks really good in the final installment ..
Miss it at all??
.. Sorry , consider that a bit tongue in cheek !
The thing is, car ownership is a lot more than just the driving part (to me, at least).
Driving that particular car was often a lot of fun, so I suppose I can say I miss that part, but there are other cars I have driven before and since which equal or surpass it in terms of enjoyment.
What I don't miss one little bit is the "Porsche Experience". I have never spent so much time in a dealer's service reception, on the phone to a dealer, writing letters/emails/faxes to a dealer/manufacturer or with a 'relief car' on my drive than I did during the few years I owned that 996. And I dealt with more than one OPC during that time.
Maybe I had a 'Friday car'. Maybe I was just unlucky. Either way, I didn't feel I was valued as a customer, either by PCGB or the OPCs. Never mind, I won't be troubling them with my business ever again.
So, overall, I don't miss it at all. For me, owning a 911 was mainly a painful experience.
Driving that particular car was often a lot of fun, so I suppose I can say I miss that part, but there are other cars I have driven before and since which equal or surpass it in terms of enjoyment.
What I don't miss one little bit is the "Porsche Experience". I have never spent so much time in a dealer's service reception, on the phone to a dealer, writing letters/emails/faxes to a dealer/manufacturer or with a 'relief car' on my drive than I did during the few years I owned that 996. And I dealt with more than one OPC during that time.
Maybe I had a 'Friday car'. Maybe I was just unlucky. Either way, I didn't feel I was valued as a customer, either by PCGB or the OPCs. Never mind, I won't be troubling them with my business ever again.
So, overall, I don't miss it at all. For me, owning a 911 was mainly a painful experience.
Sorry chaps... Haven't been through this whole topic in detail, so apologies if this is a re-post!
http://www.porscheenginefailure.com/
It is a site set up by a couple of members of the 6 Speed forum in the US.
It will be interesting to see what Porsche do about the naming and use of images on that site.
Good luck to them and all theat, but I fear they are on a hiding to nothing.
Touch wood my M96 is ok... But i do have that worry about it popping!
Cheers, Dom
http://www.porscheenginefailure.com/
It is a site set up by a couple of members of the 6 Speed forum in the US.
It will be interesting to see what Porsche do about the naming and use of images on that site.
Good luck to them and all theat, but I fear they are on a hiding to nothing.
Touch wood my M96 is ok... But i do have that worry about it popping!
Cheers, Dom
dom9 said:
Porsche are going to LOVE that site I give it a week before Porsche's lawyers close it.
Would be interested to hear from Baz what he thinks that noise is (on the guy's video...)
Edited by Soovy on Monday 10th November 12:36
If the guy carried on driving a car that made that noise at any time, it serves him right! How stupid do you have to be to think that's normal? If I heard that noise I would switch off immediately and have it recovered (unless I could actually see the lolly stick in the wheel-spokes)
I also think that site exists to raise money to pay for his stupidity... I note the donations are a little way short of his $20,000 target
I also think that site exists to raise money to pay for his stupidity... I note the donations are a little way short of his $20,000 target
dom9 said:
Sorry chaps... Haven't been through this whole topic in detail, so apologies if this is a re-post!
http://www.porscheenginefailure.com/
It is a site set up by a couple of members of the 6 Speed forum in the US.
It will be interesting to see what Porsche do about the naming and use of images on that site.
Good luck to them and all theat, but I fear they are on a hiding to nothing.
Touch wood my M96 is ok... But i do have that worry about it popping!
Cheers, Dom
Interesting. Thanks for the link.http://www.porscheenginefailure.com/
It is a site set up by a couple of members of the 6 Speed forum in the US.
It will be interesting to see what Porsche do about the naming and use of images on that site.
Good luck to them and all theat, but I fear they are on a hiding to nothing.
Touch wood my M96 is ok... But i do have that worry about it popping!
Cheers, Dom
US laws (right to free speech) may allow the naming that he's done. We shall see in due course, perhaps.
I am glad to hear you have won your case and I would be keen to learn some more detail
I have not read the entire thread but just wanted to add my 2 pence
(as hartech says at the top of the page it is just an oppinion/experience not meant to judge or detract from others')
I have been a Porsche owner only a few weeks and am still in the honeymoon period but my other car is a 1996 RangeRover (p38)
It has the venerable Rover V8 although it turns out that in the 4.6 incarnation it is not so venerable.
There are very few of these cars that have not had the engine replaced at least once in their lifetime and most need new engine at between 70-80k miles
The reason:
When boring what was originally a Buick 3.0l engine to a massive 4.6 the thickness of the cylinder wall on this Aluminium block became so thin that it is prone to cracks, this leads to water leaking in behind the liner and either getting into the cylinder or maing the liner slip up and down when running.
This could probably be considered a design fault but unless someone drove enough miles in the 3 year warranty provided by LR I think most of these engine replacements have been paid for by owners.
I paid 3k for a new engine in mine although it had been a good one and managed 100k miles
and I had to fit it myself (fitting would have been another 2k!)
There is also an easy fix never implemented by LandRover.
OEM engines can now be bought with "top-hat" liners that don't let water in or slip even if cracks apear in the block (I got one of those)
The point I am making is that it is not a purely porsche problem and I think the Porsche warranty (although more expensive now) is something of a rarity for the motoring public.
There will always be odd cases of neglegence by service garages and these should be fought but if there is no cause for recourse in the event of a failed engine sometimes we have to suck it up and put it down to bad luck.
Nevyn.
I have not read the entire thread but just wanted to add my 2 pence
(as hartech says at the top of the page it is just an oppinion/experience not meant to judge or detract from others')
I have been a Porsche owner only a few weeks and am still in the honeymoon period but my other car is a 1996 RangeRover (p38)
It has the venerable Rover V8 although it turns out that in the 4.6 incarnation it is not so venerable.
There are very few of these cars that have not had the engine replaced at least once in their lifetime and most need new engine at between 70-80k miles
The reason:
When boring what was originally a Buick 3.0l engine to a massive 4.6 the thickness of the cylinder wall on this Aluminium block became so thin that it is prone to cracks, this leads to water leaking in behind the liner and either getting into the cylinder or maing the liner slip up and down when running.
This could probably be considered a design fault but unless someone drove enough miles in the 3 year warranty provided by LR I think most of these engine replacements have been paid for by owners.
I paid 3k for a new engine in mine although it had been a good one and managed 100k miles
and I had to fit it myself (fitting would have been another 2k!)There is also an easy fix never implemented by LandRover.
OEM engines can now be bought with "top-hat" liners that don't let water in or slip even if cracks apear in the block (I got one of those)
The point I am making is that it is not a purely porsche problem and I think the Porsche warranty (although more expensive now) is something of a rarity for the motoring public.
There will always be odd cases of neglegence by service garages and these should be fought but if there is no cause for recourse in the event of a failed engine sometimes we have to suck it up and put it down to bad luck.
Nevyn.
Edited by nevyn on Tuesday 11th November 14:58
That website is interesting but I think he would be better off trying to raise support to start a class action as that has a higher chance of success than either trying to get rebates or successfully sue a company like Porsche on your own.
Nevyn, you have made a valid point but I don't think the design flaws are now the central issue.
My attitude has changed since I started my recent battle with the OPC.
Having already had the experience of one engine failure and also a transmission failure during the first 30k miles of ownership, I was already well aware of the design flaws and the 'modular replacement' policy Porsche have (OPCs can't usually repair engines and boxes so even a small internal failure means a whole new unit is required).
As you say, engine failures are not exclusive to Porsche. Engines will sometimes break and that will never change, however well designed and built they are. Yes, it is annoying that Porsche won't admit to the design flaws which account for the vast majority of reported failures, but that is also not a major issue to me.
What is the issue in my mind is the way they handle the problems and complaints. That is what is wrong with this brand now. I can accept design flaws and failures as long as the manufacturer accepts they have a duty to their customers to sort out issues in a mature, timely and responsible manner but this is where it all falls down.
Nevyn, you have made a valid point but I don't think the design flaws are now the central issue.
My attitude has changed since I started my recent battle with the OPC.
Having already had the experience of one engine failure and also a transmission failure during the first 30k miles of ownership, I was already well aware of the design flaws and the 'modular replacement' policy Porsche have (OPCs can't usually repair engines and boxes so even a small internal failure means a whole new unit is required).
As you say, engine failures are not exclusive to Porsche. Engines will sometimes break and that will never change, however well designed and built they are. Yes, it is annoying that Porsche won't admit to the design flaws which account for the vast majority of reported failures, but that is also not a major issue to me.
What is the issue in my mind is the way they handle the problems and complaints. That is what is wrong with this brand now. I can accept design flaws and failures as long as the manufacturer accepts they have a duty to their customers to sort out issues in a mature, timely and responsible manner but this is where it all falls down.
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