Discussion
Marquis_Rex said:
I mean you expect a similar price equalisation to Germany with old cars like E30 M3s
Don't know about the equalisation but UK prices are going up. Sold my sport evo 2 1/2 years ago for £17.5k, seen cars of similar condition/spec trade at low £20Ks over the last few months.
Also had loads of interest from the continent to buy mine back.
sleep envy said:
I mean you expect a similar price equalisation to Germany with old cars like E30 M3s
Don't know about the equalisation but UK prices are going up. Sold my sport evo 2 1/2 years ago for £17.5k, seen cars of similar condition/spec trade at low £20Ks over the last few months.
Also had loads of interest from the continent to buy mine back.
WOW! There was a time when Germans were coming to the UK to pick up E30 M3s.....may be things have changed.
Marquis_Rex said:
WOW! There was a time when Germans were coming to the UK to pick up E30 M3s.....may be things have changed.
I think that they're being priced out of the market which is why the cars are staying over here (certainly it's the case with the SEs and EvoIIs).
I believe the cooking versions are heading back in dribs and drabs.
Will no doubt be the case with the high end 993 cars too - know of a few RSs that have headed back to ze faterland.
Anyways, getting back on topic - in Nov 05 sold my old 96 993 C2 for £3.5k more than a 'known' 98 996 C4 changed hands for last week.
The thing which has killed 996 values is over supply IMHO.
sleep envy said:
Anyways, getting back on topic - in Nov 05 sold my old 96 993 C2 for £3.5k more than a 'known' 98 996 C4 changed hands for last week.
The thing which has killed 996 values is over supply IMHO.
in fairness ric, i had a buyer for my 996 at the full price, but i let marc have it for that price becuase hes my friend and i wanted him to have it. this means using this frame of reference your figures are somewhat out of kilter, and the difference between them almost negligible.
jonny996 said:
Come on guys you are compareing a Good 993 C2S against a basic cooking 996. if you are comparing prices, you have to compare S models against each other, or basic models against each other.
Spot on. In general It's only mint widebody 993s that regularly command a premium over the basic 3.4 motors. 996 C4S models are still north of £40k which I don't see widebody 993s reaching this year, unlike last year.
Basic low mileage 993 C2 or C4 may reach £26-7k if it's mint. However most hover around the £23-25k mark for a mid-mileage model. High milers around £19-21k.
Equivalent basic 996s are worth more will stabilise around the high-20s to mid-30s for a higher mile facelift. They are a better car in almost all regards other than early 996 build quality.
nervous said:
Anyways, getting back on topic - in Nov 05 sold my old 96 993 C2 for £3.5k more than a 'known' 98 996 C4 changed hands for last week.
The thing which has killed 996 values is over supply IMHO.
in fairness ric, i had a buyer for my 996 at the full price, but i let marc have it for that price becuase hes my friend and i wanted him to have it. this means using this frame of reference your figures are somewhat out of kilter, and the difference between them almost negligible.
point taken but say you got asking price for the 996, that still would have been a difference of £500 less for a car 2 years younger.
I know there's all this bullsheet between the to models *but* for me it's not things like RMS scares or rust on door catches which is killing the 996 residuals, it's simply the amount of metal on the market which is doing the damage.
sleep envy said:
Basic low mileage 993 C2 or C4 may reach £26-7k if it's mint. However most hover around the £23-25k mark for a mid-mileage model. High milers around £19-21k.
With all due respect you're well off the market with those figures.
I'm not talking $tealer prices - these are realistic figures a private seller can achieve.
sleep envy said:
point taken but say you got asking price for the 996, that still would have been a difference of £500 less for a car 2 years younger.
£500?! thats it? thats what were calling 'commanding a hefty premium'? and thats £500 in your case, versus mine. when you bear in mind that you were looking hard for top top dollar, whereas i priced the car for a quick sale this becomes even less worthy. even if you look here on PH (a very small sample of the market), you'll find a number of cars with spec similar or lower than that of my C4 for 30k, and thats without the extras mine had. this eliminates even the hefty premium of which you speak. moreover, just cos people are asking tall money for their 993's, it doesn't mean they'll get it, or indeed sell at all. i could put my three up for sale today for a million pounds, but this doesn't prove that they're going up in value.
long post short, folk pay more for something cos thats what its worth to them, and it will do the best job for them. NOT cos of some beard wearing underground elite who say that older cars show a certain level of secret-knowledge and implied status. to pay extra money for that cache, my suspicion is that your not buying the car for its own value, but more what it implies by extension about you.
and whilst i take your point about there being more 996's made and therefore still in existence, i simply don't feel that people will opt to buy a car with a 300 year old interior and antiquated cooling technology cos theres too much choice of the newer, better equipped, more usable cars. as you say, it may run the price down, but its not going to force the price of 993's up. it'll simply have a knock on effect on down the range.
sleep envy said:
I know there's all this bullsheet between the to models *but* for me it's not things like RMS scares or rust on door catches which is killing the 996 residuals, it's simply the amount of metal on the market which is doing the damage.
Early 996 engine fragility probably hasn't helped, but your point is taken. Just looking at the PH classifieds there are 45 993s for sale versus 129 996s!
nel said:
I know there's all this bullsheet between the to models *but* for me it's not things like RMS scares or rust on door catches which is killing the 996 residuals, it's simply the amount of metal on the market which is doing the damage.
Early 996 engine fragility probably hasn't helped, but your point is taken. Just looking at the PH classifieds there are 45 993s for sale versus 129 996s!
sheesh. that doesn't mean anything. they were built in different quantities. this doesn't necessarily extend to lower quality. to compare figures like this and draw conclusions, surely you're sample size must be the same.
mark 1 minis were built in lower numbers than mark 2's too. and ill bet you'll find more mark 2's for sale as a result. this doesn't mean that the mark 2 is better, or that we should be expecting an up-surge in mark 1 prices.
993c4 said:
Getting really hacked off with all the 996 v 993 debates as there is only one car to choose and that is a 993
the only problem is that most people who are thinking of spending the best part of 30k would really prefer an interior that was designed after the Triassic period and cooling technology more advanced than a penny farthing.
still, i hear tell that you get a free stove-pipe hat with every 993 sold, so at least you'll look the part.
Nerv - not sure where you got the term 'hefty premium' from?? All I said was there's a difference between early 996s and late 993s which I've found through my own experience of selling late last year. I personally can't see early 996s moving for more than 30k if they had a lesser spec than yours (unless they are mega low miles). Why is anyone going to pay £30k when people are paying £26-28k all day long?
I too thought I'd priced the C2 at top dollar and was waiting for the long haul as I still hadn't found my next car - fact of the matter was it was only advertised on PH, sold to the 1st person who came to view and within 3 weeks of putting it on the site. Looking back I still think I could have squeezed him for another £1k. Even VS thought I was taking the piss but the market proved that we were both wrong.
Also, have a look at the historical values of 964 & 993 RSs - they depreciated and then have begun to go back up in value. As long as they don't make I can only see the market one way, albeit at a very slow pace. This will be the same with Mk1 GT3, although I'm not so sure about the Mk2 just yet.
For what I gave for my RS I too could have bought a GT3 - even found a mint 1 owner zanzibar mk1 which I had to think long and hard before I handed over the cash. When push came to shove though I still preferred the look, sound, (believe it or not) interior and the handling of the 993. Horses for courses.
Getting away from 911s I can give you other examples where the previous generations command higher prices over the newer - go look at prices for E30 and E36 M3s or Mk1 and Mk2 golfs. I even managed to make a few bob on my E30 over 3 years, so much so the car cost me nothing apart from tax, fuel and insurance.
There must be lots of mug punters in north London
I too thought I'd priced the C2 at top dollar and was waiting for the long haul as I still hadn't found my next car - fact of the matter was it was only advertised on PH, sold to the 1st person who came to view and within 3 weeks of putting it on the site. Looking back I still think I could have squeezed him for another £1k. Even VS thought I was taking the piss but the market proved that we were both wrong.
Also, have a look at the historical values of 964 & 993 RSs - they depreciated and then have begun to go back up in value. As long as they don't make I can only see the market one way, albeit at a very slow pace. This will be the same with Mk1 GT3, although I'm not so sure about the Mk2 just yet.
For what I gave for my RS I too could have bought a GT3 - even found a mint 1 owner zanzibar mk1 which I had to think long and hard before I handed over the cash. When push came to shove though I still preferred the look, sound, (believe it or not) interior and the handling of the 993. Horses for courses.
Getting away from 911s I can give you other examples where the previous generations command higher prices over the newer - go look at prices for E30 and E36 M3s or Mk1 and Mk2 golfs. I even managed to make a few bob on my E30 over 3 years, so much so the car cost me nothing apart from tax, fuel and insurance.
There must be lots of mug punters in north London
it's all very well telling john - or anyone else - to go and try a 996 and a 993 and he'll know what to go for, but which dealers are actually sympathetic to this sort of research. i'm sure i've heard of dealers who don't allow any test drives at all(or did i imagine this?!)
and if i was trying a few cars for the first time i certainly wouldn't, having pinpointed the model i was after, jump in and buy from the dealer that day. i'd want to then have a real scout around.
is there are particular dealer then who's good for this sort of thing?.
and if i was trying a few cars for the first time i certainly wouldn't, having pinpointed the model i was after, jump in and buy from the dealer that day. i'd want to then have a real scout around.
is there are particular dealer then who's good for this sort of thing?.
Getting away from 911s I can give you other examples where the previous generations command higher prices over the newer - go look at prices for E30 and E36 M3s or Mk1 and Mk2 golfs. I even managed to make a few bob on my E30 over 3 years, so much so the car cost me nothing apart from tax, fuel and insurance.
There must be lots of mug punters in north London
[/quote]Quite so. I hate to mention the Italians but cheapest 360s are now below the best 355s and still falling. >> Edited by sammy on Tuesday 23 May 17:29
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