Discussion
sammy said:
I hate to mention the Italians
im not sure riccardo will be too pleased with this sentiment. worse yet, you may well have shot yourself in the foot as you know how these people love to switch sides mid-battle.
I'm still here...
knife at the ready
nervous said:
It's funny when 993s are ruled out on trivial things like the classic dashboard or the "dated looks".
.
incidentally, if these things are so trivial, why do car companies invest a fortune in updating and improving them?
to say that these aspects are unimportant in an emotional experience is insane: the looks and feeling of a car are as bigger part of the mix as driving it. Please note that I'm not saying its more important, or am i purely interested in the 'pose factor', but to deny the importance of aesthetics and say that you're only interested in driving dynamics is just plain fibbing: tell me honestly, honestly now, if you car looked like a skoda Riva, but drove well, would you love it in the same way? i know you're gonna be tempted to say 'yes' to prove a point, but i think we can all admit that the way these thing look and feel are a vital part of the emotional experience and that a great many of us wouldn't get in anything that looked like jimmy nails face.
You're making an assumption by suggesting that I said that driving dynamics were more important than aesthetics. In this area there's few that would argue:the 996 DOES handle better than the 993.
And you're making an extreme argument by citing the 'Skoda Riva' (what kind of car is that BTW? New one on me!
) That would be like me drawing the parallel between a Toyota to a 993 (because it's reliable and solid) and a MGB to a 996 JUST because it has some minor issues. All I'm saying is that in this sector of the market the intagibles become JUST as important as metrics.
The fact that most people agree that a 993 is 10 fold a slimmer and prettier car than a 996 is a different matter anyway. It's the difference between a Ferrari and an NSX. The NSX meets all the metrics and you can bet Honda benchmarked Ferrari to try to imitate the "feel" and inimitable quality/charisma. However it's not something that can be easily defined and put down on paper as some sort of metric.
Oh, and the reason why car industry spends a fortune on changing things like dashboards and other "suprise and delight" features, is for sales. People, (like the brainwashed 996 owners) want NEW, need a reason why new is better. Different is better nowadays. Better for sales anyway. Subtley is no longer in vogue- witness the way modern BMWs (most agree) look hideous, but they're different and they sell. They used to EVOLVE their designs in the 1980s.
993 Afficionados have seen through this marketing, and prefer the charisma and herritage over cold clinical comfortable machine.
>> Edited by Marquis_Rex on Tuesday 23 May 21:11
I second that, nervous is a very very funny chap!
I'm a car enthusiast full stop.
I love what's good and great about most cars. If I had to make a decision about 993 or 996, a "normal" 911, I would have a 993 as the 996 would not provide a sense of occasion.
If it was a "hottie", although my dream car was a 993 turbo4/turbo s, I'd buy a 996 GT2 (in fact I have!) I don't think it looks better than a 993 turbo, but I have compromised the styling for what I believe is a more exhilerating experience.
If I wanted to impress girls, I'd buy a ferrari (or an slk,any age,any spec!)
Nervous's car looks wicked, beautiful colour, but gt3's don't do it for me either, whereas the gt3rs is gorgeous!
This is my preference, whether right or wrong, with or without substance, I don't care what you guys think, in fact why am I writing this? Nurse......
I'm a car enthusiast full stop.
I love what's good and great about most cars. If I had to make a decision about 993 or 996, a "normal" 911, I would have a 993 as the 996 would not provide a sense of occasion.
If it was a "hottie", although my dream car was a 993 turbo4/turbo s, I'd buy a 996 GT2 (in fact I have!) I don't think it looks better than a 993 turbo, but I have compromised the styling for what I believe is a more exhilerating experience.
If I wanted to impress girls, I'd buy a ferrari (or an slk,any age,any spec!)
Nervous's car looks wicked, beautiful colour, but gt3's don't do it for me either, whereas the gt3rs is gorgeous!
This is my preference, whether right or wrong, with or without substance, I don't care what you guys think, in fact why am I writing this? Nurse......
I see all 'new cars' as nothing more than the last years model with a different user interface (dash, steering feel etc). Since when did any manufacturer actually make a significant leap forwards in just 2 or 3 years of development anyway? All just marketing and calculated minute forward steps in some directions.
In a few years time the 997 will be viewed as dull and the 999 will be the new must have.
In a few years time the 997 will be viewed as dull and the 999 will be the new must have.
fidgits said:
surely by that reckoning we were all 'duped' into buying PC's when we were all perfectly happy with our typewriters, and these new fangled things have no additional benifits?
No, because that's taking my argument to extremes again. Like comparing a Ford Focus to a Model T.
When a system reaches close to an optimum (I HATE that word), ok ,ok, a balance between form and function. When it's been evolved and evolved into something great, then an equal amount of effort won't neccessarily improve it alot further in all respects.
Where that of form over function/optimum lies, is the subject of this very post!
>> Edited by Marquis_Rex on Tuesday 23 May 21:22
aceparts_com said:
I see all 'new cars' as nothing more than the last years model with a different user interface (dash, steering feel etc). Since when did any manufacturer actually make a significant leap forwards in just 2 or 3 years of development anyway? All just marketing and calculated minute forward steps in some directions.
In a few years time the 997 will be viewed as dull and the 999 will be the new must have.
Ford escort to ford focus.... a huge leap in technology and went from a mediocre car to a market leader
>> Edited by fidgits on Tuesday 23 May 21:28
I agree with what you're saying Figits but manufacturers seem to make these night and day claims every couple of years when all that's happened is a new set of headlights and tweek to the suspension.
We're all suckers as I want an 04 bmw x3 'cause it's the new shape (headlights and grill
)
We're all suckers as I want an 04 bmw x3 'cause it's the new shape (headlights and grill
)nervous said:
incidentally, if these things are so trivial, why do car companies invest a fortune in updating and improving them?
Marketing?
Marquis_Rex said:
You're making an assumption by suggesting that I said that driving dynamics were more important than aesthetics. In this area there's few that would argue:the 996 DOES handle better than the 993.
I'll bite here. I prefer the 993's handling to that of the 996. Its limits aren't as high, but they're more accessible, the car flows better, feels lighter and has nicer steering feel. A 996 may be faster to cover ground, and is a lovely car, but...The 996 represented Porsche's move from the old to the new, and was Wiedeking's first step in broadening Porsche's appeal to the widest possible audience. Out went a lot of the quirks and foibles ( and a dollop of quality), in came additional weight, cost-cutting, and a lot of idiot-proofing. The 996 sucessfully tempted a lot of owners out of their Mercs. A 993 would never have been able to manage this, as you had to enjoy driving for its own sake to put up with some of the cars shortcomings on the ergonomic front. The 993 was also relatively speaking a lot more expensive than a 996.
I love 996s, but nice 993s make me go weak at the knees.
nervous said:
..tell me honestly, honestly now, if you car looked like a skoda Riva, but drove well, would you love it in the same way? i know you're gonna be tempted to say 'yes' to prove a point, but i think we can all admit that the way these thing look and feel are a vital part of the emotional experience and that a great many of us wouldn't get in anything that looked like jimmy nails face.
You're taking it to extremes again Nervous and making it completely unapplicable to the question in hand. Inside the 993 might have olde world porker ergonomics, so a beautiful a simple leather-clad dashboard without too many toys, but I don't want the toys anyway. With regard to the form, it also has what I consider to be the most beautiful and flowing 911 shape ever created, particularly the fat ass turbo and 'S' versions. Some prefer the 996 look, but then beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess.
And when the discussion turns to driving dynamics, it seems that the 993 is less anodyne and controlled than the 996 without the plethora of electronics that the latter has to keep you in a straight line. Depending on the type of driver that you are, this can be a bad thing. Those who prefer the ever increasing dumbed down driving experience of modern cars where the car's systems make up for any clumsiness will obviously feel more at home in a 996. I haven't driven a 996, but did try a 997 at a Porsche day - very competent but very boring. I was glad to get back into my 993 turbo and take the long way home.
>> Edited by nel on Wednesday 24th May 09:20
Nel
Its clear that you have not driven a 996, if you think its dumbed down with electronics doing all the work.
Only the 'hard of thinking' or seriously thuggish drivers will get PSM to intervene and even then, intervention is a long, long way along the line, due to the massive grip that is available. Put such a driver in a 993 and he will become a hedge ornament.
Driving a 996 on the limit involves a lot of speed and a lot G force. Doing so in a 993 achieves the same, but with smaller numbers. Which drive is more entertaining?
Is a 993 really a dumbed down 964?
Its clear that you have not driven a 996, if you think its dumbed down with electronics doing all the work.
Only the 'hard of thinking' or seriously thuggish drivers will get PSM to intervene and even then, intervention is a long, long way along the line, due to the massive grip that is available. Put such a driver in a 993 and he will become a hedge ornament.
Driving a 996 on the limit involves a lot of speed and a lot G force. Doing so in a 993 achieves the same, but with smaller numbers. Which drive is more entertaining?
Is a 993 really a dumbed down 964?
Raven Flyer said:
Is a 993 really a dumbed down 964?
Touché! No doubt that the same debate can be had 964/993, and the rawer nature of the 964 will ahve its appeal. Guess that I just have to accept that I'm becoming a luddite in my dotage.
No doubt what you say is true and the 996 can catch people out too, eh Nervous?
nel said:
[quote=Raven Flyer]Is a 993 really a dumbed down 964?
Actually a very good point, but rather than dumbed down it is an evolution of a design that goes back decades. The 996 on the other hand is was a totally new car and the only thing that links it to previous Porsches is the number 911.
It was designed for the mass market and has been very successful, but at the ame time has diluted what Porsche used to stand for. They would have been better designating it a different model number.
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