The next classic?
Discussion
Re driver aids, I'm sure it comes down to three things:
- loss of feedback
- loss of driver involvement/control
- loss of purity (conceptually if not physically)
The newer systems are better at keeping the feedback intact and only robbing the driver of involvement when necessary, so I suppose in a decade or two when they are perfectly unobtrusive it will just come down to 'purity' - will the challenge of driving a fast car fast be missing?
- loss of feedback
- loss of driver involvement/control
- loss of purity (conceptually if not physically)
The newer systems are better at keeping the feedback intact and only robbing the driver of involvement when necessary, so I suppose in a decade or two when they are perfectly unobtrusive it will just come down to 'purity' - will the challenge of driving a fast car fast be missing?
pugsey said:
I imagine a hot lap of the 'Ring next to Walter in the new GT3 would disabuse anyone of the notion that driver aids make a car boring!
LOL walter rohl - the ultimate driver aid ?
WRSM i think you unwittingly hit the nail on the head there. some of us would rather drive a 8:45 lap than be driven round in 7:45
Edited by francisb on Monday 26th June 12:25
pugsey said:
steve rance said:
Irish said:
Hhhmm, not so sure about the Mk 1 GT3, a future classic yes but I would put the GT3 RS first in terms of looks, relative rarity, etc. Just hope the owners stop stuffing them.
A
A
Seriously though
I think that the accesibility of the 73, 964 and 993 RS's will make them eternally classic. The GT3RS will probably be the last of the RS's with no driver aids and many will probably say that with it went the last true RS. With so many ening up in the armco, I can understand why Porsche have gone the driver aid route with the 997 but it is an awful shame. I love driving the 996 becuase it offers a great challenge but I can relax a whole lot more in an earlier RS's.
Ultimately they may all achieve classic status - They are all fantastic to drive and they all rely entirely on the driver to expoit thier true potential.
So when a 997RS blasts past me at Spa, I can consoul myslef that at least I am managing to cock it all up on my own...
Steve R
This phrase 'driver aids' keeps cropping up and is I.M.O. a completely spurious argument. I am sure if we go back far enough drivers of older cars would refer to servo'd disc brakes, syncro, decent seats etc. etc. as driver aids but not,in the main, being luddites we have come to embrace them. I'm sure that in ten years or so all the 'aids' on the new GT3 will seem dated enough for it too to become a classic. While I'm on my soap box I wish 996RS owners would stop whinging that most of the new GT3's advantage is in it's tyres. Until the new car arrived they didn't seem to mind being the ones with the latest car and hottest tyres available. Now thy're not. Finally I imagine a hot lap of the 'Ring next to Walter in the new GT3 would disabuse anyone of the notion that driver aids make a car boring!
Don't really follow your point, put the same tyres on and there is precious little if any difference. Put a 993RS or earlier on the same tyres (and people do), and there is still a significant difference.
As to the driver aids, part of the appeal and mystique of the GT3 is knowing that you've got to be commited to want to own one, and pedal it around the track with any vigour. Now that it has been made so much more accessible, the mystique of the car has been undermined. You also won't know whether the guy lapping at the track is keeping the car on track himself, or relying on trick electronics to cover up his mistakes.
I just find it a little sad that the main way the GT3s has been evolved is on accessibilty and comfort. Surely that's not what the models are about? Where is the 3.8l engine? Shipping it on stickier rubber to ensure an improved ring time is a tad cynical.
Of course now I've opened myself up to being accused of macho idiocy for liking the GT3 for being a little more hairy chested. There is a good column on this whole issue in this months Total 911 (Aids epidemic).
DanH said:
pugsey said:
steve rance said:
Irish said:
Hhhmm, not so sure about the Mk 1 GT3, a future classic yes but I would put the GT3 RS first in terms of looks, relative rarity, etc. Just hope the owners stop stuffing them.
A
A
Seriously though
I think that the accesibility of the 73, 964 and 993 RS's will make them eternally classic. The GT3RS will probably be the last of the RS's with no driver aids and many will probably say that with it went the last true RS. With so many ening up in the armco, I can understand why Porsche have gone the driver aid route with the 997 but it is an awful shame. I love driving the 996 becuase it offers a great challenge but I can relax a whole lot more in an earlier RS's.
Ultimately they may all achieve classic status - They are all fantastic to drive and they all rely entirely on the driver to expoit thier true potential.
So when a 997RS blasts past me at Spa, I can consoul myslef that at least I am managing to cock it all up on my own...
Steve R
This phrase 'driver aids' keeps cropping up and is I.M.O. a completely spurious argument. I am sure if we go back far enough drivers of older cars would refer to servo'd disc brakes, syncro, decent seats etc. etc. as driver aids but not,in the main, being luddites we have come to embrace them. I'm sure that in ten years or so all the 'aids' on the new GT3 will seem dated enough for it too to become a classic. While I'm on my soap box I wish 996RS owners would stop whinging that most of the new GT3's advantage is in it's tyres. Until the new car arrived they didn't seem to mind being the ones with the latest car and hottest tyres available. Now thy're not. Finally I imagine a hot lap of the 'Ring next to Walter in the new GT3 would disabuse anyone of the notion that driver aids make a car boring!
Don't really follow your point, put the same tyres on and there is precious little if any difference. Put a 993RS or earlier on the same tyres (and people do), and there is still a significant difference.
As to the driver aids, part of the appeal and mystique of the GT3 is knowing that you've got to be commited to want to own one, and pedal it around the track with any vigour. Now that it has been made so much more accessible, the mystique of the car has been undermined. You also won't know whether the guy lapping at the track is keeping the car on track himself, or relying on trick electronics to cover up his mistakes.
I just find it a little sad that the main way the GT3s has been evolved is on accessibilty and comfort. Surely that's not what the models are about? Where is the 3.8l engine? Shipping it on stickier rubber to ensure an improved ring time is a tad cynical.
Of course now I've opened myself up to being accused of macho idiocy for liking the GT3 for being a little more hairy chested. There is a good column on this whole issue in this months Total 911 (Aids epidemic).
- can absolutely see the attraction of 996RS for you and love it for same reasons myself. The point that I was trying to make - and probably clumsily failed -is that while the aids that the 997 comes with may make it apparently 'easier' to drive fast it just means you'll have to go even faster to get those kicks whereas they may arrive earlier in a 996. Don't think it's at all cynical bunging the latest rubber on the 997 - thats what it's been developed for after all. Presumably you buy the best tyres available for your 996. (Tyre man at Thruxton launch confirmed that the tyres on test GT3s are the ones that UK cars will come on and Porsche have confirmed this again since) Edited by pugsey on Monday 26th June 12:56
pugsey said:
steve rance said:
Irish said:
Hhhmm, not so sure about the Mk 1 GT3, a future classic yes but I would put the GT3 RS first in terms of looks, relative rarity, etc. Just hope the owners stop stuffing them.
A
A
Seriously though
I think that the accesibility of the 73, 964 and 993 RS's will make them eternally classic. The GT3RS will probably be the last of the RS's with no driver aids and many will probably say that with it went the last true RS. With so many ening up in the armco, I can understand why Porsche have gone the driver aid route with the 997 but it is an awful shame. I love driving the 996 becuase it offers a great challenge but I can relax a whole lot more in an earlier RS's.
Ultimately they may all achieve classic status - They are all fantastic to drive and they all rely entirely on the driver to expoit thier true potential.
So when a 997RS blasts past me at Spa, I can consoul myslef that at least I am managing to cock it all up on my own...
Steve R
Edited by pugsey on Monday 26th June 12:17
With respect I toally disagree.
Driving a car at speed is a skill that can only be learnt through driving properly and if you can drive properly then you wont need traction aids.
steve rance said:
pugsey said:
steve rance said:
Irish said:
Hhhmm, not so sure about the Mk 1 GT3, a future classic yes but I would put the GT3 RS first in terms of looks, relative rarity, etc. Just hope the owners stop stuffing them.
A
A
Seriously though
I think that the accesibility of the 73, 964 and 993 RS's will make them eternally classic. The GT3RS will probably be the last of the RS's with no driver aids and many will probably say that with it went the last true RS. With so many ening up in the armco, I can understand why Porsche have gone the driver aid route with the 997 but it is an awful shame. I love driving the 996 becuase it offers a great challenge but I can relax a whole lot more in an earlier RS's.
Ultimately they may all achieve classic status - They are all fantastic to drive and they all rely entirely on the driver to expoit thier true potential.
So when a 997RS blasts past me at Spa, I can consoul myslef that at least I am managing to cock it all up on my own...
Steve R
Edited by pugsey on Monday 26th June 12:17
With respect I toally disagree.
Driving a car at speed is a skill that can only be learnt through driving properly and if you can drive properly then you wont need traction aids.
pugsey said:
steve rance said:
pugsey said:
steve rance said:
Irish said:
Hhhmm, not so sure about the Mk 1 GT3, a future classic yes but I would put the GT3 RS first in terms of looks, relative rarity, etc. Just hope the owners stop stuffing them.
A
A
Seriously though
I think that the accesibility of the 73, 964 and 993 RS's will make them eternally classic. The GT3RS will probably be the last of the RS's with no driver aids and many will probably say that with it went the last true RS. With so many ening up in the armco, I can understand why Porsche have gone the driver aid route with the 997 but it is an awful shame. I love driving the 996 becuase it offers a great challenge but I can relax a whole lot more in an earlier RS's.
Ultimately they may all achieve classic status - They are all fantastic to drive and they all rely entirely on the driver to expoit thier true potential.
So when a 997RS blasts past me at Spa, I can consoul myslef that at least I am managing to cock it all up on my own...
Steve R
Edited by pugsey on Monday 26th June 12:17
With respect I toally disagree.
Driving a car at speed is a skill that can only be learnt through driving properly and if you can drive properly then you wont need traction aids.
Actually that's an interesing point. I've never separated driver aids and traction aids before..
steve rance said:
pugsey said:
steve rance said:
pugsey said:
steve rance said:
Irish said:
Hhhmm, not so sure about the Mk 1 GT3, a future classic yes but I would put the GT3 RS first in terms of looks, relative rarity, etc. Just hope the owners stop stuffing them.
A
A
Seriously though
I think that the accesibility of the 73, 964 and 993 RS's will make them eternally classic. The GT3RS will probably be the last of the RS's with no driver aids and many will probably say that with it went the last true RS. With so many ening up in the armco, I can understand why Porsche have gone the driver aid route with the 997 but it is an awful shame. I love driving the 996 becuase it offers a great challenge but I can relax a whole lot more in an earlier RS's.
Ultimately they may all achieve classic status - They are all fantastic to drive and they all rely entirely on the driver to expoit thier true potential.
So when a 997RS blasts past me at Spa, I can consoul myslef that at least I am managing to cock it all up on my own...
Steve R
Edited by pugsey on Monday 26th June 12:17
With respect I toally disagree.
Driving a car at speed is a skill that can only be learnt through driving properly and if you can drive properly then you wont need traction aids.
Actually that's an interesing point. I've never separated driver aids and traction aids before..
steve rance said:
I think in general, mechanical aids such as slippy diffs etc.. still require driver input to optimise thier potential, my beef is with electrical aids that remove the driver from the equation by braking or reducing power for him, making him effectively a passenger
Agree with the two specific examples you give Steve. In fact if you intend to drive at the - genuine - limit on track apart from being unnecessary if you can drive properly, they can both be b***** dangerous too. Still handy at times on the road though - particularly for the more ham fisted - (footed?). Edited by pugsey on Monday 26th June 14:59
bigfoot769 said:
OK guys help me out. this is probably not the right post to ask but ... ive got 25k and want a 911 (who wouldnt) saw a few on Auto trader but... my current level of knowledge on 911's is poor (i am doing my research though)
so any advice will be gratefully absorbed
so any advice will be gratefully absorbed
£25k - The world is your lobster
You could be looking at a huge choice of 911s - from pre-73 'classics' to a contemporary 996s, via 3.2 Carreras, 964s, and 993s.
Depends on what you need and how you plan to use it?
steve rance said:
I think in general, mechanical aids such as slippy diffs etc.. still require driver input to optimise thier potential, my beef is with electrical aids that remove the driver from the equation by braking or reducing power for him, making him effectively a passenger
Interesting thread this - driving aids vs purity - kicked off by the arrival of the new GT3.
It seems Porsche are attempting to make the GT3 a better all rounder. Great on the road AND the track.
I think they've got it spot on with the new electronic systems introduced on the 997 GT3. Sport mode for firming damping and aggressive throttle mapping. Traction/lockup control that works with an LSD. Both systems switchable. Traction control off really means off. No stability PSM nonsense.
Walter Rohl is quoted in the press stating that turning traction control off on the new GT3 saves a couple of seconds on (dry?) ring lap times.
Personally I reckon TC will be a very handy in the wet (both on the road and the track of course!)
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