RE: Rare Porsche 959 on eBay
Discussion
gretchen said:
Marki said:
Joe911 said:
xjsjohn said:
thats a different car surely?? one on fleabay has a roll cage and black seats by the looks of it ....
Yes, most definately a different car.
errr did anyone read my post
Yes, you were merely pointing out that the other 959 had been knocking around for a few years. Indicating that it's possibly not the only one?
Sure the add i posted is not for the same model even , but i posted it just as a comparison
ill try and find the full story of that bill gates and steve balmer thing where they negotiated with US government to get them to let the two MS bosses drive their 959's in USA, was a pretty cool thing to do, negotiating with the government removing a term in the microsoft licensing to get their cars on the road
its also strange how the microsoft anti trust/anti competition case dissapeared when it had been practially closed with the notion that microsoft had to split into 5 seperate companies and had to share their secrets about windows with everyone then sept 11th terror thingy, bill gates gave 1 billion usd to "rescue efforts at the world trade centre" and the case that was almost finalised saying MS are screwed was closed, nothing more heard, Mr Gates gets his own way yet again.. .. .. .. .. ..
ill look for the link i read about their 959's
its also strange how the microsoft anti trust/anti competition case dissapeared when it had been practially closed with the notion that microsoft had to split into 5 seperate companies and had to share their secrets about windows with everyone then sept 11th terror thingy, bill gates gave 1 billion usd to "rescue efforts at the world trade centre" and the case that was almost finalised saying MS are screwed was closed, nothing more heard, Mr Gates gets his own way yet again.. .. .. .. .. ..
ill look for the link i read about their 959's
As for the appeal of a "delivery mileage" 959, that may apply to somebody who likes to keep a car in a glass bubble. If he's going to drive the thing, however, it would be much better to have one that had been used regularly.
The car has many seals and gaskets that will deteriorate if they're not used. Getting a barely-used 959 into proper driving condition is an expensive proposition. Also, you really need a 959 technical specialist to scope out the car properly, of which there are maybe 3-4 in the world.
The background to the 29 "US Sport" models is:
Porsche originally offered the 959 in the "Comfort" and "Sport" versions. Out of the 250 or whatever 959s specified by customers, only 6 were ordered as Sports.
The 959 is more GT than sports car, so it could be argued that the Comfort model made more sense. At the same time it must be said that the Sport is a much nicer machine to drive; it's lighter, with fewer contraptions that go wrong.
There was a chap in the US (where the 959 had not been approved) named Al Holbert. He was a great Porsche racer and engineer who proposed to the factory that if they could send some Sports with roll cages to the States, he thought that he could get them past the Feds as race cars, and then at the state level it shouldn't be a problem to get them approved one-by-one.
The factory took deposits from 29 American customers for the "US Sport" version. (Main difference between it and ROW Sport was that US had a full cage; because front of cage interfered with window winders of Sport version, US Sport had electric windows.)
They brought in the first 7 or so US Sports to east coast US inspection facility. Unfortunately, the DoT man who showed up to check them out was an extremely knowledgeable gentleman (and genuine motorphile) who pointed out that not many true race cars had roll cages that were trimmed in leather!
The application for US importation as race cars was rejected.
Porsche offered all 29 customers their deposits back. One American man kept his car, under an agreement with the DoT that it would never be driven on public roads (it sat in his museum for more than a decade). The other 28 cars were sold by the factory to various ROW customers (of whom there were many, as ROW demand for the car far outstripped the limited production run).
The US Sport model was not formally approved in the UK. The cars that came in did so as "personal imports".
Not long after the US import fiasco, Al Holbert was killed in a plane crash.
With respect to the myths about Bill Gates, Microsoft, the US gov't, etc., what happened was this:
Gates and a couple of other guys who owned but couldn't drive 959s hired a lobbyist to advocate to the government (that is, to Dep't of Transportation and a few key people in Congress) that there ought to be a way that cars of special interest to the public could be brought into the US.
The result was the "Show or Display" law, which was really only enacted because it was tacked onto an unrelated but essential bill that was guaranteed to be passed by Congress and signed by the President.
This law, which IIRC came into force in '99, enables the owner of any car that has not been approved by the US Dep't of Trans. for use on public roads to apply for an exemption. The owner must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the DoT that the car is of "significant technical or historical interest".
If the car is approved, the owner must agree to drive it no more than 2500 miles per annum (including miles on private land and circuits).
Cars imported under SorD are exempt from safety requirements and tests, as those are the remit of the DoT. These cars are not, however, exempt for whatever EPA requirements were operative in the year the car was manufactured. Frequently cars brought in under SorD (especially post-31/12/95 production) must undergo very expensive modifications in order to pass comprehensive emissions tests.
Many models of car have qualified for SorD, including EB110, XJ220, 959, F1, the last 50 "original" Minis, the "last" air-cooled Porsche and sundry others.
Note that in order to be Federalised, each separate, individual car must pass the full battery of EPA tests.
Btw, if a car is more than 25 years, it is exempt from ALL DoT regs and, outside of California, exempt in practice from virtually all emissions requirements as well.
That leaves the 25+ year old car subject to state registration requirements, but generally they amount to nothing more than having lights and a horn.
In the US, one could literally drive a 917 on the public roads. Of course, in a lot of places if you drove it above about 60 mph you'd be intercepted by a police helicopter and stinger spikes, but that's a different issue.
The car has many seals and gaskets that will deteriorate if they're not used. Getting a barely-used 959 into proper driving condition is an expensive proposition. Also, you really need a 959 technical specialist to scope out the car properly, of which there are maybe 3-4 in the world.
The background to the 29 "US Sport" models is:
Porsche originally offered the 959 in the "Comfort" and "Sport" versions. Out of the 250 or whatever 959s specified by customers, only 6 were ordered as Sports.
The 959 is more GT than sports car, so it could be argued that the Comfort model made more sense. At the same time it must be said that the Sport is a much nicer machine to drive; it's lighter, with fewer contraptions that go wrong.
There was a chap in the US (where the 959 had not been approved) named Al Holbert. He was a great Porsche racer and engineer who proposed to the factory that if they could send some Sports with roll cages to the States, he thought that he could get them past the Feds as race cars, and then at the state level it shouldn't be a problem to get them approved one-by-one.
The factory took deposits from 29 American customers for the "US Sport" version. (Main difference between it and ROW Sport was that US had a full cage; because front of cage interfered with window winders of Sport version, US Sport had electric windows.)
They brought in the first 7 or so US Sports to east coast US inspection facility. Unfortunately, the DoT man who showed up to check them out was an extremely knowledgeable gentleman (and genuine motorphile) who pointed out that not many true race cars had roll cages that were trimmed in leather!
The application for US importation as race cars was rejected.
Porsche offered all 29 customers their deposits back. One American man kept his car, under an agreement with the DoT that it would never be driven on public roads (it sat in his museum for more than a decade). The other 28 cars were sold by the factory to various ROW customers (of whom there were many, as ROW demand for the car far outstripped the limited production run).
The US Sport model was not formally approved in the UK. The cars that came in did so as "personal imports".
Not long after the US import fiasco, Al Holbert was killed in a plane crash.
With respect to the myths about Bill Gates, Microsoft, the US gov't, etc., what happened was this:
Gates and a couple of other guys who owned but couldn't drive 959s hired a lobbyist to advocate to the government (that is, to Dep't of Transportation and a few key people in Congress) that there ought to be a way that cars of special interest to the public could be brought into the US.
The result was the "Show or Display" law, which was really only enacted because it was tacked onto an unrelated but essential bill that was guaranteed to be passed by Congress and signed by the President.
This law, which IIRC came into force in '99, enables the owner of any car that has not been approved by the US Dep't of Trans. for use on public roads to apply for an exemption. The owner must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the DoT that the car is of "significant technical or historical interest".
If the car is approved, the owner must agree to drive it no more than 2500 miles per annum (including miles on private land and circuits).
Cars imported under SorD are exempt from safety requirements and tests, as those are the remit of the DoT. These cars are not, however, exempt for whatever EPA requirements were operative in the year the car was manufactured. Frequently cars brought in under SorD (especially post-31/12/95 production) must undergo very expensive modifications in order to pass comprehensive emissions tests.
Many models of car have qualified for SorD, including EB110, XJ220, 959, F1, the last 50 "original" Minis, the "last" air-cooled Porsche and sundry others.
Note that in order to be Federalised, each separate, individual car must pass the full battery of EPA tests.
Btw, if a car is more than 25 years, it is exempt from ALL DoT regs and, outside of California, exempt in practice from virtually all emissions requirements as well.
That leaves the 25+ year old car subject to state registration requirements, but generally they amount to nothing more than having lights and a horn.
In the US, one could literally drive a 917 on the public roads. Of course, in a lot of places if you drove it above about 60 mph you'd be intercepted by a police helicopter and stinger spikes, but that's a different issue.
Edited by flemke on Sunday 13th August 00:15
flemke,
great post but there's a small inaccuracy. You say that cars approved for Show and Display status can only be driven a total of 2,500 miles (private land and circuits included). So far as I know, the 2,500 mile restriction applies only to public roads and there are no restrictions for how many miles you can drive on private land.
great post but there's a small inaccuracy. You say that cars approved for Show and Display status can only be driven a total of 2,500 miles (private land and circuits included). So far as I know, the 2,500 mile restriction applies only to public roads and there are no restrictions for how many miles you can drive on private land.
orgasmicliving!! said:
flemke,
great post but there's a small inaccuracy. You say that cars approved for Show and Display status can only be driven a total of 2,500 miles (private land and circuits included). So far as I know, the 2,500 mile restriction applies only to public roads and there are no restrictions for how many miles you can drive on private land.
Unless they've changed the law, it specifically states that the 2500 limit applies to all driving, including on private circuits. great post but there's a small inaccuracy. You say that cars approved for Show and Display status can only be driven a total of 2,500 miles (private land and circuits included). So far as I know, the 2,500 mile restriction applies only to public roads and there are no restrictions for how many miles you can drive on private land.
I doesn't make sense, maybe, but that is what it says.
On the other hand, perhaps it does make sense.
The point of the law was to enable the owner of one of these "special" cars to share it with the public, hence "Show or Display".
Originally the DoT was going to allow only 500 miles per annum. When faced with some argumentation from the lobbyists, they instead chose the rather arbitrary insurance industry standard limitation of 2500 miles p.a. that is applied to vintage cars that are insured for public roads.
It is tough to argue that one would need to drive a car more than 2500 miles a year in order to get it to and from public exhibitions.
The only reason I know this is that I was deranged enough to read the law itself, which can be sourced on some DoT or Congressional website.
Cheers.
Trooper2 said:
Under those rules if you wanted to drive from Los Angeles to Boston you would have to pull up and park it in NYC for a year before you could finish the trip.....
If you really wanted to drive from LA to Boston, you could always start off on December 30th! Edited by orgasmicliving!! on Monday 14th August 05:15
flemke said:
Unless they've changed the law, it specifically states that the 2500 limit applies to all driving, including on private circuits.
I doesn't make sense, maybe, but that is what it says.
On the other hand, perhaps it does make sense.
The point of the law was to enable the owner of one of these "special" cars to share it with the public, hence "Show or Display".
Originally the DoT was going to allow only 500 miles per annum. When faced with some argumentation from the lobbyists, they instead chose the rather arbitrary insurance industry standard limitation of 2500 miles p.a. that is applied to vintage cars that are insured for public roads.
It is tough to argue that one would need to drive a car more than 2500 miles a year in order to get it to and from public exhibitions.
The only reason I know this is that I was deranged enough to read the law itself, which can be sourced on some DoT or Congressional website.
Cheers.
Cheers, flemke, it's been a while since I read it, so I didn't remember if it was specifically mentioned. Strange that it is, as (and I just consulted with a lawyer friend about this) "the NHTSA has no jurisdiction and no enforcement powers on private land and this is another example of typical poorly worded, overreaching legislation." I doesn't make sense, maybe, but that is what it says.
On the other hand, perhaps it does make sense.
The point of the law was to enable the owner of one of these "special" cars to share it with the public, hence "Show or Display".
Originally the DoT was going to allow only 500 miles per annum. When faced with some argumentation from the lobbyists, they instead chose the rather arbitrary insurance industry standard limitation of 2500 miles p.a. that is applied to vintage cars that are insured for public roads.
It is tough to argue that one would need to drive a car more than 2500 miles a year in order to get it to and from public exhibitions.
The only reason I know this is that I was deranged enough to read the law itself, which can be sourced on some DoT or Congressional website.
Cheers.
Edited by orgasmicliving!! on Monday 14th August 06:07
orgasmicliving!! said:
flemke said:
Unless they've changed the law, it specifically states that the 2500 limit applies to all driving, including on private circuits.
I doesn't make sense, maybe, but that is what it says.
On the other hand, perhaps it does make sense.
The point of the law was to enable the owner of one of these "special" cars to share it with the public, hence "Show or Display".
Originally the DoT was going to allow only 500 miles per annum. When faced with some argumentation from the lobbyists, they instead chose the rather arbitrary insurance industry standard limitation of 2500 miles p.a. that is applied to vintage cars that are insured for public roads.
It is tough to argue that one would need to drive a car more than 2500 miles a year in order to get it to and from public exhibitions.
The only reason I know this is that I was deranged enough to read the law itself, which can be sourced on some DoT or Congressional website.
Cheers.
Cheers, flemke, it's been a while since I read it, so I didn't remember if it was specifically mentioned. Strange that it is, as (and I just consulted with a lawyer friend about this) "the NHTSA has no jurisdiction and no enforcement powers on private land and this is another example of typical poorly worded, overreaching legislation." I doesn't make sense, maybe, but that is what it says.
On the other hand, perhaps it does make sense.
The point of the law was to enable the owner of one of these "special" cars to share it with the public, hence "Show or Display".
Originally the DoT was going to allow only 500 miles per annum. When faced with some argumentation from the lobbyists, they instead chose the rather arbitrary insurance industry standard limitation of 2500 miles p.a. that is applied to vintage cars that are insured for public roads.
It is tough to argue that one would need to drive a car more than 2500 miles a year in order to get it to and from public exhibitions.
The only reason I know this is that I was deranged enough to read the law itself, which can be sourced on some DoT or Congressional website.
Cheers.
What they are saying is that you may have not an exemption for driving on public roads in a car that accumulates more than 2500 miles p.a.
I suspect that if someone challenged this, they would say, "No problem. You're entitled to drive your 959 a million miles a year on private roads. We don't care. You just can't also drive it on public roads."
Edited by flemke on Monday 14th August 11:22
orgasmicliving!! said:
Cheers, flemke, it's been a while since I read it, so I didn't remember if it was specifically mentioned. Strange that it is, as (and I just consulted with a lawyer friend about this) "the NHTSA has no jurisdiction and no enforcement powers on private land and this is another example of typical poorly worded, overreaching legislation."
The link is: www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/ShowDisplay/showdisplay.pdf
You will note that it says, "The limitation (2500 p.a.) applies to all mileage, not just road use."
Cheers.
re: microsoft & 959s
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oxladed said:
sideways500 said:
I seem to remember reading that the 4WD system on the 959 is still more sophisticated than that used in all the subsequent 911 variants. Has any magazine tested the 959 against the 997 turbo?
I remember seeing a magazine (may have been Autocar) about 4 years ago compare a then current 911 Turbo and a 959. If memory serves me correctly, they reckoned that whilst the 959 was slightly quicker, it was a much hairier beast to handle in comparison to the modern machine. Still a great car though...
I have an idea Evo mag did such a comparison a few years ago. They tend to do old vs. new comparisons fairly regularly. Whether or not it was Evo, do remember that the conclusion they reached was as stated above. The 959 was a little bit quicker in a straight line and on boost, but down any particular b-road the then current Turbo was quicker because it was easier to drive, rode better and had enough pace to do it.
As for the sophistication of its 4wd, a more recent magazine did claim that the 959 is the most sophisticated car ever. I think though that such claims tend to focus on the whole drivetrain / suspension package as much as anything else. The adjustable suspension is utterly packed with electronics to a level that is still amazing today.
Alfanatic said:
I have an idea Evo mag did such a comparison a few years ago. They tend to do old vs. new comparisons fairly regularly. Whether or not it was Evo, do remember that the conclusion they reached was as stated above. The 959 was a little bit quicker in a straight line and on boost, but down any particular b-road the then current Turbo was quicker because it was easier to drive, rode better and had enough pace to do it.
As for the sophistication of its 4wd, a more recent magazine did claim that the 959 is the most sophisticated car ever. I think though that such claims tend to focus on the whole drivetrain / suspension package as much as anything else. The adjustable suspension is utterly packed with electronics to a level that is still amazing today.
The current TT is a more capable car across the board than the 959 Sport, which in turn is a meaningful step more of a driver's car than the standard 959. As for the sophistication of its 4wd, a more recent magazine did claim that the 959 is the most sophisticated car ever. I think though that such claims tend to focus on the whole drivetrain / suspension package as much as anything else. The adjustable suspension is utterly packed with electronics to a level that is still amazing today.
The only areas in which the 959 Sport is better are-
- brake feel (Chris Harris's recent comments in a mag are totally inapplicable to the Sport)
- engine, as the 959 has the same block and guts as the 956/962 mill, and we know how special that was, and
- build quality.
Overall, however, the new car is superior, in the same way that a 430, say, is comprehensively superior to an F40.
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