Track car weights
Discussion
Thanks Chaps
Just another thought and only out of interest, but my 993RS is factory boggo standard except for:- sports exhaust and uprated brake pads, there fore no engine or suspension mods whatso ever!!!
Surely the fairest way to decide each cars merits, is to take the best results from "Judgement Day" for each discipline for factory standard cars.
ie. Standard GT3 v 993 v 964.
Out of interest how many of the top GT3 guys were running cars with no engine or suspension mods??
What do you think?? fair point or not???
John
Just another thought and only out of interest, but my 993RS is factory boggo standard except for:- sports exhaust and uprated brake pads, there fore no engine or suspension mods whatso ever!!!
Surely the fairest way to decide each cars merits, is to take the best results from "Judgement Day" for each discipline for factory standard cars.
ie. Standard GT3 v 993 v 964.
Out of interest how many of the top GT3 guys were running cars with no engine or suspension mods??
What do you think?? fair point or not???
John
steve rance said:
YellowRS said:
DanH said:
clubsport said:
Ok fair enough!
I certainly admire the humility of certain 993RS drivers on the day, the fastest car round the turn by a reasonable margin and not a single gloat.....just to be expected I suppose
I certainly admire the humility of certain 993RS drivers on the day, the fastest car round the turn by a reasonable margin and not a single gloat.....just to be expected I suppose
Or a measuring error?
Actually quite interested in this - did he repeat it more than once as I was lead to believe it was a big speed differential over all the other cars there. Also how was it measured?
Done that corner lots of times in various cars, but can't for the life of me remember what speed I make it round at.
Hi Dan,
It was my 993 and just to clarify my times for the 3 runs were:-
1st run = 85mph (winning time)
2nd run = 88mph (Red Flagged)
3rd run = 84mph
So perhaps not too much of a fluke
Ha ha... Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat..
Brilliant!!! Come on Dan, what'dya say to that then?!
Not a lot I can say, thats an outstanding performance!
I seem to remember being told the record was in the 90s, in fact 102 rings a bell in an Elise, but I'm not convinced of how accurately its measured generally as its mostly people looking at their speedo and probably adding 10 mph, not to mention speedo accuracy issues
How was it measured this time - with a laser speed gun? Its all a bit of a laugh anyway, and you just need to look at cars on trackdays to see that Elises can enter corners quicker. Edited by DanH on Wednesday 6th September 16:25
YellowRS said:
Thanks Chaps
Just another thought and only out of interest, but my 993RS is factory boggo standard except for:- sports exhaust and uprated brake pads, there fore no engine or suspension mods whatso ever!!!
Surely the fairest way to decide each cars merits, is to take the best results from "Judgement Day" for each discipline for factory standard cars.
ie. Standard GT3 v 993 v 964.
Out of interest how many of the top GT3 guys were running cars with no engine or suspension mods??
What do you think?? fair point or not???
John
Just another thought and only out of interest, but my 993RS is factory boggo standard except for:- sports exhaust and uprated brake pads, there fore no engine or suspension mods whatso ever!!!
Surely the fairest way to decide each cars merits, is to take the best results from "Judgement Day" for each discipline for factory standard cars.
ie. Standard GT3 v 993 v 964.
Out of interest how many of the top GT3 guys were running cars with no engine or suspension mods??
What do you think?? fair point or not???
John
Not sure about the engine mods but the track surface probably suited a conventionally suspended car anyway. The extreme cars in the bunch ie; Tim and Colin's suffered a distinct disadvantage. That said, it is possible that the stiffly sprung 964RS was at a disadvantage from the start. I think that the only true test is 10 laps somewhere, with the same driver in each car on similar rubber. To be fair, they are all so bloody quick in real terms I don't think that it matters. They all represent the pinacle of what tin top motorsport technology had to offer at the time and with the passing of time comes lower lap times, they dont tumble, just chip chip chip away. Would be a great article to get one of each of the marques, stick a logger in them and trundle them around bedord GT. Maybe I could top it off with a cup car at the end, If I ask Porsche nicely....Would be a great read. Anyone let me drive thier car?
Steve R
I am not so sure 10 laps somewhere is the answer. That question is answered by the latest 997 cup car.
Steve, you have got to get yourself a drive in a race series next year mate
Most of us happy enough driving our cars on road in relatively standard form doing a few trackdays a year and feel privileged to own cars.
They are all great cars and a few tenths or even seconds difference on a lap from a magazine article is certainly not going to influence my choice of Porsche or car I drive in the slightest.
I realise there is banter, to a certain extent, but I am suprised how seriously some appear to take the outcome.
Des did a great job organising this, but don't forget he collected the wood, lit the fire and stood well back, not driving on the day......beleive me, he is loving the wind up
Steve, you have got to get yourself a drive in a race series next year mate
Most of us happy enough driving our cars on road in relatively standard form doing a few trackdays a year and feel privileged to own cars.
They are all great cars and a few tenths or even seconds difference on a lap from a magazine article is certainly not going to influence my choice of Porsche or car I drive in the slightest.
I realise there is banter, to a certain extent, but I am suprised how seriously some appear to take the outcome.
Des did a great job organising this, but don't forget he collected the wood, lit the fire and stood well back, not driving on the day......beleive me, he is loving the wind up
steve rance said:
YellowRS said:
Thanks Chaps
Just another thought and only out of interest, but my 993RS is factory boggo standard except for:- sports exhaust and uprated brake pads, there fore no engine or suspension mods whatso ever!!!
Surely the fairest way to decide each cars merits, is to take the best results from "Judgement Day" for each discipline for factory standard cars.
ie. Standard GT3 v 993 v 964.
Out of interest how many of the top GT3 guys were running cars with no engine or suspension mods??
What do you think?? fair point or not???
John
Just another thought and only out of interest, but my 993RS is factory boggo standard except for:- sports exhaust and uprated brake pads, there fore no engine or suspension mods whatso ever!!!
Surely the fairest way to decide each cars merits, is to take the best results from "Judgement Day" for each discipline for factory standard cars.
ie. Standard GT3 v 993 v 964.
Out of interest how many of the top GT3 guys were running cars with no engine or suspension mods??
What do you think?? fair point or not???
John
Not sure about the engine mods but the track surface probably suited a conventionally suspended car anyway. The extreme cars in the bunch ie; Tim and Colin's suffered a distinct disadvantage. That said, it is possible that the stiffly sprung 964RS was at a disadvantage from the start. I think that the only true test is 10 laps somewhere, with the same driver in each car on similar rubber. To be fair, they are all so bloody quick in real terms I don't think that it matters. They all represent the pinacle of what tin top motorsport technology had to offer at the time and with the passing of time comes lower lap times, they dont tumble, just chip chip chip away. Would be a great article to get one of each of the marques, stick a logger in them and trundle them around bedord GT. Maybe I could top it off with a cup car at the end, If I ask Porsche nicely....Would be a great read. Anyone let me drive thier car?
Steve R
clubsport said:
I am not so sure 10 laps somewhere is the answer. That question is answered by the latest 997 cup car.
Steve, you have got to get yourself a drive in a race series next year mate
Most of us happy enough driving our cars on road in relatively standard form doing a few trackdays a year and feel privileged to own cars.
They are all great cars and a few tenths or even seconds difference on a lap from a magazine article is certainly not going to influence my choice of Porsche or car I drive in the slightest.
I realise there is banter, to a certain extent, but I am suprised how seriously some appear to take the outcome.
Des did a great job organising this, but don't forget he collected the wood, lit the fire and stood well back, not driving on the day......beleive me, he is loving the wind up
Steve, you have got to get yourself a drive in a race series next year mate
Most of us happy enough driving our cars on road in relatively standard form doing a few trackdays a year and feel privileged to own cars.
They are all great cars and a few tenths or even seconds difference on a lap from a magazine article is certainly not going to influence my choice of Porsche or car I drive in the slightest.
I realise there is banter, to a certain extent, but I am suprised how seriously some appear to take the outcome.
Des did a great job organising this, but don't forget he collected the wood, lit the fire and stood well back, not driving on the day......beleive me, he is loving the wind up
Forget the lap times and banter for a minute though. Sheer speed isn't everything. The tactile differences between the RS's on the circuit. It's never been done properly... All Fantastic driving machines, the best. Not to see what is best, just to write on the experience and the subtle differences...... Now that would be an article
Pugsey said:
steve rance said:
YellowRS said:
Thanks Chaps
Just another thought and only out of interest, but my 993RS is factory boggo standard except for:- sports exhaust and uprated brake pads, there fore no engine or suspension mods whatso ever!!!
Surely the fairest way to decide each cars merits, is to take the best results from "Judgement Day" for each discipline for factory standard cars.
ie. Standard GT3 v 993 v 964.
Out of interest how many of the top GT3 guys were running cars with no engine or suspension mods??
What do you think?? fair point or not???
John
Just another thought and only out of interest, but my 993RS is factory boggo standard except for:- sports exhaust and uprated brake pads, there fore no engine or suspension mods whatso ever!!!
Surely the fairest way to decide each cars merits, is to take the best results from "Judgement Day" for each discipline for factory standard cars.
ie. Standard GT3 v 993 v 964.
Out of interest how many of the top GT3 guys were running cars with no engine or suspension mods??
What do you think?? fair point or not???
John
Top man..!!
Not sure about the engine mods but the track surface probably suited a conventionally suspended car anyway. The extreme cars in the bunch ie; Tim and Colin's suffered a distinct disadvantage. That said, it is possible that the stiffly sprung 964RS was at a disadvantage from the start. I think that the only true test is 10 laps somewhere, with the same driver in each car on similar rubber. To be fair, they are all so bloody quick in real terms I don't think that it matters. They all represent the pinacle of what tin top motorsport technology had to offer at the time and with the passing of time comes lower lap times, they dont tumble, just chip chip chip away. Would be a great article to get one of each of the marques, stick a logger in them and trundle them around bedord GT. Maybe I could top it off with a cup car at the end, If I ask Porsche nicely....Would be a great read. Anyone let me drive thier car?
Steve R
steve rance said:
clubsport said:
I am not so sure 10 laps somewhere is the answer. That question is answered by the latest 997 cup car.
Steve, you have got to get yourself a drive in a race series next year mate
Most of us happy enough driving our cars on road in relatively standard form doing a few trackdays a year and feel privileged to own cars.
They are all great cars and a few tenths or even seconds difference on a lap from a magazine article is certainly not going to influence my choice of Porsche or car I drive in the slightest.
I realise there is banter, to a certain extent, but I am suprised how seriously some appear to take the outcome.
Des did a great job organising this, but don't forget he collected the wood, lit the fire and stood well back, not driving on the day......beleive me, he is loving the wind up
Steve, you have got to get yourself a drive in a race series next year mate
Most of us happy enough driving our cars on road in relatively standard form doing a few trackdays a year and feel privileged to own cars.
They are all great cars and a few tenths or even seconds difference on a lap from a magazine article is certainly not going to influence my choice of Porsche or car I drive in the slightest.
I realise there is banter, to a certain extent, but I am suprised how seriously some appear to take the outcome.
Des did a great job organising this, but don't forget he collected the wood, lit the fire and stood well back, not driving on the day......beleive me, he is loving the wind up
Forget the lap times and banter for a minute though. Sheer speed isn't everything. The tactile differences between the RS's on the circuit. It's never been done properly... All Fantastic driving machines, the best. Not to see what is best, just to write on the experience and the subtle differences...... Now that would be an article
Totally agree, tactile differences are what it is all about to me. I now have a car with full factory cage used on road and track, I am amazed at the difference the cage makes to the car compared to the non caged version of the car I owned previously....With the same bhp, I honestly have no idea which is quicker...nor do I care
Such an article would definitely help one of the 911 mags fly off of the shelf in WH Smith's
tony.t said:
Thanks for the info on weights. More food for thought.
I hadn't realised the GT3RS could get so lardy. Thats got to be near 1500kg with fuel and driver ( present company excepted )
Another reason not to get one , although I'm still strangely drawn towards them.
I hadn't realised the GT3RS could get so lardy. Thats got to be near 1500kg with fuel and driver ( present company excepted
) Another reason not to get one , although I'm still strangely drawn towards them.
To get it into perspective, a 996RS with rear cage and extinguisher is only 40-50kg heavier than a 993RS. It's the bloody aircon option on some cars that does most of the damage. The front cage fittment is a tough one. On the track, it's great but potentially lethal on the road. It's not the chasis that is lardy, it's the optional bits that makes some of these cars heavy.
Steve R
clubsport said:
In theory it is "only" 40-50kg heavier,,,but surely Johns measurements with his two cars on the same weigh bridge are pretty conclusive that the actual difference in kg is more in the real world?
It just reflects that he's got a car with a front cage and air con. Air con is a killer in terms of weight and undoes all of the work that went into lighteneing the car in the first place. The 996RS was not orginally offered with it but some people in the UK bleated and bleated and Porsche relented. We love to rant on that Porsche have gone soft with their new cars then demand that they bolt 30kgs of un needed bulk in them because we don't want to get hot. The engineers at Porsche must think that they can't win.
It is the customer that has gone soft, not Porsche.
Steve R
From yellow RS post;
"I had both my cars corner weighted at Tech 9 motorsport(the Norths equivelent of Parr).
993RS..(Standard car with Clubsport Spoiler pack and 1/2 cage = 1260kgs
GT3RS..(standard car with full cage and extinguisher, Air con = 1406kgs
Both cars had less than a 1/4 tank of fuel."
I appreciate what you are saying with respect to a/c and adding 30kg, but from the numbers above I make the difference 146kg. (again total respect to GT3RS, just love the 400bhp engine etc...)
Personally I have found a/c essential for cooling the car on track days and have seen guys getting too hot come in from a session early.
I would have thought Porsche had it spot on, with the a/c option. No disrespect to owners as I too would be in this camp, but surely a GT3RS is a soft (and sensible) option to a cup car where I can understand the benefit of an additional 30kg saved in weight.
Agree Porsche designers can't win, but it's all about volume sold these days unfortunately.
.
"I had both my cars corner weighted at Tech 9 motorsport(the Norths equivelent of Parr).
993RS..(Standard car with Clubsport Spoiler pack and 1/2 cage = 1260kgs
GT3RS..(standard car with full cage and extinguisher, Air con = 1406kgs
Both cars had less than a 1/4 tank of fuel."
I appreciate what you are saying with respect to a/c and adding 30kg, but from the numbers above I make the difference 146kg. (again total respect to GT3RS, just love the 400bhp engine etc...)
Personally I have found a/c essential for cooling the car on track days and have seen guys getting too hot come in from a session early.
I would have thought Porsche had it spot on, with the a/c option. No disrespect to owners as I too would be in this camp, but surely a GT3RS is a soft (and sensible) option to a cup car where I can understand the benefit of an additional 30kg saved in weight.
Agree Porsche designers can't win, but it's all about volume sold these days unfortunately.
.
Edited by clubsport on Thursday 7th September 10:32
Yep.. Aparently you have to have a sunroof if you buy a 997RS in the States!
What a shame, I can almost hear the tears from the Porsche engineers and sense the friction between them and the marketting boys
Steve
Edited by steve rance on Thursday 7th September 10:44
Edited by steve rance on Thursday 7th September 10:45
steve rance said:
Yep.. Aparently you have to have a sunroof if you buy a 997RS in the States!
What a shame, I can almost hear the tears from the Porsche engineers and sense the friction between them and the marketting boys
Steve
My C2 has a sunroof and when open on hot days it makes a significant difference to cabin temps. I'll bet it doesnt weigh 30kg though.
Doesn't aircon use engine hp to work? I'll guess they use about 10hp to run.
Edited by tony.t on Thursday 7th September 11:10
tony.t said:
steve rance said:
Yep.. Aparently you have to have a sunroof if you buy a 997RS in the States!
What a shame, I can almost hear the tears from the Porsche engineers and sense the friction between them and the marketting boys
Steve
My C2 has a sunroof and when open on hot days it makes a significant difference to cabin temps. I'll bet it doesnt weigh 30kg though.
Doesn't aircon use engine hp to work? I'll guess they use about 10hp to run.
Edited by tony.t on Thursday 7th September 11:10
Pretty sure it disengages when on WOT. I turn mine off on track unless its really hot though, but then turn it back on in the pits to cool the cabin. I'd really miss aircon if it wasn't there, especially when I'm using the car on the road and not track.
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