997 Turbo - strange power delivery

[Pugsey]

DucatiGary said:

i brought the GT2 into my response becuase it is also a 911 turbo variant that I have been in, there's nothing cryptic about it.

Ah ha! 'fraid my pea like little brain hadn't twigged that. Still odd that lag is worse on 997 than 996 don't you think? Only driven modded GT2s so can't make a comparison there.

[M400 JET]

Pugsey said:

Pugsey said:

The 997tt does seem to have a little more lag than the 996 version - which doesn't seem like progress to me.

.

Eh??????????????

911 Turbo Type 997 has an output of 353 kW (480 bhp) at 6,000rpm, 60 bhp more than 996 Turbo. Torque 620 Nm from 1,950 to 5,000rpm. Variable turbine geometry. 6-speed manual goes 0-100kmh in 3.9 seconds. Coupé reaches 200 kmh mark in 12.8 seconds. 80 to 120 km/h (50–75mph) in fifth in 3.8 seconds. 22.1mpg combined. Tiptronic S auto does m 0 – 100 km/h in 3.7 seconds and 200 km/h in 12.2 seconds. 80-120 km/h (50-75mph) in 4th in 3.5 seconds. Furthermore. 20.8mpg. Both transmission variants have a top speed of 310 km/h (193mph)

I Rest my case your honour!!!

More lag than the 996, doesnt seem like progress to me?

Edited by M400 JET on Wednesday 6th September 19:29

Edited by M400 JET on Wednesday 6th September 19:30

[DucatiGary]

M400 JET said:

Pugsey said:

Pugsey said:

The 997tt does seem to have a little more lag than the 996 version - which doesn't seem like progress to me.

.

Eh??????????????

911 Turbo Type 997 has an output of 353 kW (480 bhp) at 6,000rpm, 60 bhp more than 996 Turbo. Torque 620 Nm from 1,950 to 5,000rpm. Variable turbine geometry. 6-speed manual goes 0-100kmh in 3.9 seconds. Coupé reaches 200 kmh mark in 12.8 seconds. 80 to 120 km/h (50–75mph) in fifth in 3.8 seconds. 22.1mpg combined. Tiptronic S auto does m 0 – 100 km/h in 3.7 seconds and 200 km/h in 12.2 seconds. 80-120 km/h (50-75mph) in 4th in 3.5 seconds. Furthermore. 20.8mpg. Both transmission variants have a top speed of 310 km/h (193mph)

I Rest my case your honour!!!

More lag than the 996, doesnt seem like progress to me?

Edited by M400 JET on Wednesday 6th September 19:29

Edited by M400 JET on Wednesday 6th September 19:30

mabe somones trying to limit the hit on the residuals for the 996 TT ?

Edited by DucatiGary on Wednesday 6th September 19:39

[Pugsey]

DucatiGary said:

M400 JET said:

Pugsey said:

Pugsey said:

The 997tt does seem to have a little more lag than the 996 version - which doesn't seem like progress to me.

.

Eh??????????????

911 Turbo Type 997 has an output of 353 kW (480 bhp) at 6,000rpm, 60 bhp more than 996 Turbo. Torque 620 Nm from 1,950 to 5,000rpm. Variable turbine geometry. 6-speed manual goes 0-100kmh in 3.9 seconds. Coupé reaches 200 kmh mark in 12.8 seconds. 80 to 120 km/h (50–75mph) in fifth in 3.8 seconds. 22.1mpg combined. Tiptronic S auto does m 0 – 100 km/h in 3.7 seconds and 200 km/h in 12.2 seconds. 80-120 km/h (50-75mph) in 4th in 3.5 seconds. Furthermore. 20.8mpg. Both transmission variants have a top speed of 310 km/h (193mph)

I Rest my case your honour!!!

More lag than the 996, doesnt seem like progress to me?

Edited by M400 JET on Wednesday 6th September 19:29

Edited by M400 JET on Wednesday 6th September 19:30

mabe somones trying to limit the hit on the residuals for the 996 TT ?

Edited by DucatiGary on Wednesday 6th September 19:39

Your case was never in dispute as it happens. The car as a whole is most def. progress - both as an overall driving experience and on plain performance figs. - I was just suprised that it seems to have taken a slight backward step in one area ie. turbo lag which doesn't seem like progress to me. Couldn't care less about 996 residuals since I don't own one.

[c2dtg]

To be honest if I was in the fortunate position to buy a 997tt I don't think I would give a toss about whether there was more lag.

I completely understand your point Gary - and it certainly makes a bit of a mockery of the Porsche marketing around VVT BUT the bottom line is the 997 turbo is [abopts a Little Britain series 1 character voice] "Gorgeous"

[Pugsey]

c2dtg said:

To be honest if I was in the fortunate position to buy a 997tt I don't think I would give a toss about whether there was more lag.

I completely understand your point Gary - and it certainly makes a bit of a mockery of the Porsche marketing around VVT BUT the bottom line is the 997 turbo is [abopts a Little Britain series 1 character voice] "Gorgeous"

Couldn't agree more - only ever meant it as a point of interest and then - as seems the way on Porsche forums everyone went defensive. Fab. car.

[AL001]

I thought it was a reasonable point to make. Be interested to hear from someone that has owned or extensively driven all three - 996TT, 996 TT X50 and 997TT, for his viewpoint on relative differences.

I've test driven an X50 example and it did have a little more lag than I expected....then went bloody fast!

[C2DTG]

AL001 said:

I thought it was a reasonable point to make. Be interested to hear from someone that has owned or extensively driven all three - 996TT, 996 TT X50 and 997TT, for his viewpoint on relative differences.

I've test driven an X50 example and it did have a little more lag than I expected....then went bloody fast!

so what do you call someone who has had extensive experiance of a 996tt, 996tt X50 and a 997tt?.....

Lucky b@stard!!!!

[DanH]

kayc said:

DucatiGary said:

15mph more!

ermmmmm I was thinking more along lines of 60+ more, I thought there would be a kick from the turbo, no such thing, I thought the power would noticaly change, no such thing, I didnt realise the car would just pull and feel like a NA car.. . . . . . but then again i was only in the passenger seat.

996tt has negligable lag either but im sure you know that after you previous comments...tt experts have even commented that the 997tt has more lag than the 996tt which is a surprise with the VGT technology on the 997.The 996tt engine has very little lag hence the extremely flat torque curve..that is why i get pissed off with some of the comments on this forum regarding the superiority of a 911 NA engine over a 996tt engine.The 996 tt engine is the same but more..imo of course.

Lag isn't the same thing as a torque curve though. Lag is what you feel when boost is being built up before the engine can deliver full power. Remember dyno charts are done at wide open throttle (WOT) and whatever max boost the ECU allows at the rpm. When you are driving on the road at partial throttle often you won't be on boost or on negligable boost, so when you floor it you don't get the power shown on the graph until that boost has built up to 0.9 or whatever on the gauge.

This is why some of us prefer NA engines - good examples have better throttle response as they don't have to build up boost and will respond quicker when you floor it. Of course with NA engines you can get wrong footed if not in the right gear and suddenly needing power, which is why I can appreciate the appeal of a turbo too - whilst it may take a fraction of a second longer to respond to the throttle at least you've got power

Edited by DanH on Wednesday 6th September 22:23

[ken993]

I drive a turbo x50 every day, there is definately more lag than the 993 turbo but I believe that's the difference between the K16's and the K24's. I recently spent half a day driving the 997 Turbo and whilst there was lag, it was less than the 996 x50.

[kleonard]

i agree i have a gt2 and have driven the 997tt for a while... the 997tt defo has less lag.. all the same not sure if it as quick as my gt2..???

[gunner]

Great thread.ok,well in my opinion the 997TT had considerably more lag than the 996 version.I can't ever recall driving an X50 but certainly the regular version had less lag than the 997 TT in my experience.The more I think about it the more I think I preferred the 996 version overall in fact.Take away the terrific 997TT looks,and the fact that it is just so accomplished and easy to drive fast in,I felt better about the 996TT's ride,steering feel,turn in,power delivery,noise and gear change.Both 997TT's I drove (one well over 500 miles) rattled a bit alarmingly aswell.Don't get me wrong,the 997TT is a fabulous car and ticks all the boxes,and maybe I look at the 996 version with rose tinted specs because it was the first everyday 'supercar' I was ever lucky enough to own,but my purely personal preference was definitely for the 996 type.By the way I prefer the 996 GT2 to both although not as an everyday motor...Cheers.

[AL001]

I assume with the higher power of 997TT, it's using the larger K24's? Could that mean they may have improved the lag over previous X50 with VTG but still more lag than standard 996TT with smaller K16's? That would sort of make sense. I think!

[DeltaHedge]

Not had much experience of 996 base TT, but loads in an X50 and now 997TT. 997 is without doubt, as someone said above, the easiest to lose your license in. By a mile. Its better (or should that be worse) than a 430 for that because cruising at 120 feels like 90.

As for lag, don't recall either being bad for this, but with the Sport button on the 997 feels very alive all the time. I'm not saying 1000 revs is optimal, but who cares.

Can't wait to see what the upgraded engine one is like....

[nbetts]

DeltaHedge said:

Not had much experience of 996 base TT, but loads in an X50 and now 997TT. 997 is without doubt, as someone said above, the easiest to lose your license in. By a mile. Its better (or should that be worse) than a 430 for that because cruising at 120 feels like 90.

As for lag, don't recall either being bad for this, but with the Sport button on the 997 feels very alive all the time. I'm not saying 1000 revs is optimal, but who cares.

Can't wait to see what the upgraded engine one is like....

Chaps - Just to set the record straight on the lag issue and having the good fortune to drive all three derivatives that are being talked much about here...

Standard 996 TT K16 turbos - Very little lag - quite a seamless power delivery - does not feel like you are going as fast as you are.

996 TT X50 K24 turbos - Quite a bit of lag, turbos come in with a noticeable punch at around 3k RPM - makes the car feel very very fast.

997 TT - Variable vane geometry, no real perception of lag at all... just loads of go all the time - gives the perception of not going that fast - Other than the fact that the Landscape has gone all Stargate... (blurry)

[Pugsey]

nbetts said:

DeltaHedge said:

Not had much experience of 996 base TT, but loads in an X50 and now 997TT. 997 is without doubt, as someone said above, the easiest to lose your license in. By a mile. Its better (or should that be worse) than a 430 for that because cruising at 120 feels like 90.

As for lag, don't recall either being bad for this, but with the Sport button on the 997 feels very alive all the time. I'm not saying 1000 revs is optimal, but who cares.

Can't wait to see what the upgraded engine one is like....

Chaps - Just to set the record straight on the lag issue and having the good fortune to drive all three derivatives that are being talked much about here...

Standard 996 TT K16 turbos - Very little lag - quite a seamless power delivery - does not feel like you are going as fast as you are.

996 TT X50 K24 turbos - Quite a bit of lag, turbos come in with a noticeable punch at around 3k RPM - makes the car feel very very fast.

997 TT - Variable vane geometry, no real perception of lag at all... just loads of go all the time - gives the perception of not going that fast - Other than the fact that the Landscape has gone all Stargate... (blurry)

Nope. Can't agree re lag. The 997tts that I've driven have had more lag than the standard 996tt - not shed loads but, never the less, perceptibly more. Some here seem to have found the same others not - perhaps the cars vary?

[nick_968]

VVT doesnt mean there is no lag, it just enables less compromise in the design of the turbo i.e. you can get faster spoolup but still produce good efficiency at higher rpms as the vanes adjust to the given rpm. In the end it means a wider powerband and less lag at lower rpm without sacrificing top end bhp for turbo response. How it feels in reality depends entirely on how the engineers have set the car up and what turbo internals they use, so it can still have more lag than a 996, but produce a wider more usable power band and still retain the turbo punch many love.

[gaity]

......never driven a Porsche TT, but owned an turboed Audi. Isn't 'lag' just a perception of what happens from the point you floor it? ie booting it when pottering along at low revs in a high gear is going to give you more lag than doing the same whilst pottering along in a lower gear at higher revs, isn't it?

[simonharrod911]

:tryingnottogetreallyangry:

If anyone of you have any issue with turbo lag on a 997TT then buy a Carrera GT or a McLaren F1, because as a road car it does absolutely you could every want. If there is a little bit of lag compared to a 996 who cares? It's ultimately faster. A GT2 has LOADS of lag, but so what. It's got...............TURBOS!!!!!!!!!!

Drive around it or get a normally aspirated car.

"GT2 not an everyday car"

WHY?????????????????? I use it EVERYDAY, my foot never falls off, it never breaks down, it never gets a period!

WHY?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[M400 JET]

DeltaHedge said:

Not had much experience of 996 base TT, but loads in an X50 and now 997TT. 997 is without doubt, as someone said above, the easiest to lose your license in. By a mile. Its better (or should that be worse) than a 430 for that because cruising at 120 feels like 90.

As for lag, don't recall either being bad for this, but with the Sport button on the 997 feels very alive all the time. I'm not saying 1000 revs is optimal, but who cares.

Can't wait to see what the upgraded engine one is like....

Delta how do you compare the 2 cars? like you ive been fortunate enough to have both the 430 and the 997 TT, the 430 to me is a car for special occasions, call me what you want but thats how it is with me, fantastic car, looks performance Etc Etc, now ive had some bad experiances with Porsche some years back and promised myself id never buy another, Then i go and Buy the 997 TT "The one in DGs Picture" Its a Hooligan and I love it, ill take back all i ever said about Porsche over the years, ive driven the 996 Turbo s and i cant see that the 997 TT has a noticable Turbo Lag whilst comparing against the 996 Turbo S, If i was to hop out of one say at Silverstone or somewhere then into mine I could give you a better judgement on what ive found.