944S2 More ooomph
Discussion
nick_968 said:
Of course when you reach the limit after that, substantial power increases are necessary, hence why my engine is out of my car and up for sale! Replaced by 400hp 3.0 turbo 
Ah, well, you might have a point there.
Of course shelling out several grand on a purpose built turbo motor for a 968 makes more sense than on a 944 as the car is worth more in the first place.
My poor old 944 is more than likely worth less than the price of your conversion.......
As a matter of interest why didn't you just turbo your own motor?
As far as I know the 968 goes straight in as the block and heads are the same, the variocam bit is different of course, and by the look of it the intake manifold pipework might require some mods but apart from that it should'nt be too much work.
Edited by SILVERS2 on Tuesday 19th September 15:46
I didnt use my own engine, because to make it all work as an 8v turbo capable of high boost you lose so much of the 968 engine its worth more to sell it complete and use a junk block re-coated or lined, or a new block. I was able to source a brand new bare block a few years back and this formed the basis of my project. Add Carillo rods, Mahle pistons 944 intake and exhaust manifolds, a custom turbo, and there isnt much left of the old 968 engine!
It also meant I could run my 968 right up until the engine was finally ready to go into the car, and then sell my engine complete with ECU as a package to someone.
It also meant I could run my 968 right up until the engine was finally ready to go into the car, and then sell my engine complete with ECU as a package to someone.
SILVERS2 said:
Why hasn't anybody dropped a 928 motor into a 944?, I mean it's half of the 928 anyway.
It's the width (ooer etc cue Nervy
) - the OHC 928 block won't fit between the suspension turrets - I've heard of it being done, but the front of the car had to be spaceframed!!!!! Rover V8 and LSx conversions are only possible as the engines are remarkably compact due to the pushrod designs....
Fatboy said:
SILVERS2 said:
Why hasn't anybody dropped a 928 motor into a 944?, I mean it's half of the 928 anyway.
It's the width (ooer etc cue Nervy
) - the OHC 928 block won't fit between the suspension turrets - I've heard of it being done, but the front of the car had to be spaceframed!!!!! Pity, it would have been the ideal soloution.
nick_968 said:
Taking out the cat isnt going to do you any favours, you may get a little more top end but you will lose backpressure and therefor your midrange torque will suffer.
I have a complete 968 engine for sale from my car with only 78k if any of you 944 guys fancy a project.
I have a complete 968 engine for sale from my car with only 78k if any of you 944 guys fancy a project.
TV NICK ?
if so hiya mate
SILVERS2 said:
Hmmm... okay, perhaps not abysmal, but my old audi 80 had by far better quality plastics (and the dash top wasn't going all discoulered either), and as far as the flimsy stalks and the un labeled switches go, I think the designer just threw them in and thats where they stayed (the window switches stuck at the fromt of the door, the centre console with a smattering of switches, those odd ones either side of the 'climatronic' which both have the same icon heater on them? and the icing on the cake, the hatch release hidded in the footwell, priceless)
I can see now why your S2 was £4500. If you had spent an extra grand ontop of it, you could find one that has a spotless interior. Mine has all the labels on the switches, none of the buttons are stuck, the dash is black and not discoloured, etc... As for the flimsy stalks I'm not sure what gives you that impression, but those in my 944 feel solid and dont make a weak flimsy "click" sound like on some other, even more modern cars.
bite-me said:
nick_968 said:
Taking out the cat isnt going to do you any favours, you may get a little more top end but you will lose backpressure and therefor your midrange torque will suffer.
I have a complete 968 engine for sale from my car with only 78k if any of you 944 guys fancy a project.
I have a complete 968 engine for sale from my car with only 78k if any of you 944 guys fancy a project.
TV NICK ?
if so hiya mate
sorry looked at your other posts,
just confirmed you are TV
hope your fine and the jobs coming along ok,
SILVERS2 said:
Fatboy said:
SILVERS2 said:
Why hasn't anybody dropped a 928 motor into a 944?, I mean it's half of the 928 anyway.
It's the width (ooer etc cue Nervy
) - the OHC 928 block won't fit between the suspension turrets - I've heard of it being done, but the front of the car had to be spaceframed!!!!! Pity, it would have been the ideal soloution.
Or the new twin-turbo Cayenne Lump
[[/quote]
I can see now why your S2 was £4500. If you had spent an extra grand ontop of it, you could find one that has a spotless interior. Mine has all the labels on the switches, none of the buttons are stuck, the dash is black and not discoloured, etc... As for the flimsy stalks I'm not sure what gives you that impression, but those in my 944 feel solid and dont make a weak flimsy "click" sound like on some other, even more modern cars.[/quote]
I Did't fancy spending £5,500 on a 944, £4,400 was enough for me, and I think that was a lot for a 15 year old car with 100,000 miles on.
My switches do still have their logo's on but they are distributed around in a rather haphazard manner, and the indicator stalks are very 'lada', I suppose you could say 'of the period', but as I said the audi of the same age was in a different league (partly why I bought another german car).
Can't seem to post a pic to show you how nice and shiny my £4500 car is, sorry
All the (cheap & flimsy) switches do still work as well, but shouldn't we be expecting that anyway??, it's obvious to me that Porsche spent all the money on the suspension and drive train in the eraly days, and skipmed on the interior/ plastics.
I can see now why your S2 was £4500. If you had spent an extra grand ontop of it, you could find one that has a spotless interior. Mine has all the labels on the switches, none of the buttons are stuck, the dash is black and not discoloured, etc... As for the flimsy stalks I'm not sure what gives you that impression, but those in my 944 feel solid and dont make a weak flimsy "click" sound like on some other, even more modern cars.[/quote]
I Did't fancy spending £5,500 on a 944, £4,400 was enough for me, and I think that was a lot for a 15 year old car with 100,000 miles on.
My switches do still have their logo's on but they are distributed around in a rather haphazard manner, and the indicator stalks are very 'lada', I suppose you could say 'of the period', but as I said the audi of the same age was in a different league (partly why I bought another german car).
Can't seem to post a pic to show you how nice and shiny my £4500 car is, sorry
All the (cheap & flimsy) switches do still work as well, but shouldn't we be expecting that anyway??, it's obvious to me that Porsche spent all the money on the suspension and drive train in the eraly days, and skipmed on the interior/ plastics.
Edited by silverS2 on Tuesday 19th September 18:14
Hmm, tuning a 944S2. Obvious suggestions are:
1. Fit 968 engine (and box)
2. Supercharge S2 engine
3. Sell car and buy 968 or tweeked 944 turbo
If still not satisfied:
4. Supercharge 968 or further modify 944 turbo
All options have their pro's and cons including cost, but the bottom line is the easiest conversion is to fit the 968 engine, run it without a cat, remap it and if you are lucky you will have 250bhp on a good day. Alternatively start saving, supercharge said 968 engine and then have over 350bhp. Supercharging the 944S2 engine is possible as most of the parts from out 968 kit will fit, you can also fit the 944turbo intercooler to save funds, but the problem is that you cannot easily map the ecu with the flap afm so you have to fit the 968 hot film unit, which costs.
1. Fit 968 engine (and box)
2. Supercharge S2 engine
3. Sell car and buy 968 or tweeked 944 turbo
If still not satisfied:
4. Supercharge 968 or further modify 944 turbo
All options have their pro's and cons including cost, but the bottom line is the easiest conversion is to fit the 968 engine, run it without a cat, remap it and if you are lucky you will have 250bhp on a good day. Alternatively start saving, supercharge said 968 engine and then have over 350bhp. Supercharging the 944S2 engine is possible as most of the parts from out 968 kit will fit, you can also fit the 944turbo intercooler to save funds, but the problem is that you cannot easily map the ecu with the flap afm so you have to fit the 968 hot film unit, which costs.
AdvocatusDiaboli said:
zcacogp said:
ETA: The Promax chip is available elsewhere at a fraction of the price that Promax sells it at, or so I am told.
Edited by zcacogp on Monday 18th September 22:38
Where?
Hi All,
ProMAX chips are only available from ProMAX Motorsport (£99.95 inc.). They are available for the same price from other licenced resellers such as K300 and PorscheShop).
Power gains vary considerably from car to car (due to the age of these cars now). We have dyno charts of a JamSport tested customer car with this kit showing 252bhp (dyno chart available if anybody wants to see it). Average gains will be about 15bhp. The higher the compression, the better the result.
Regards,
Andrew
Edited by promax on Friday 22 September 05:07
ninemeister said:
Hmm, tuning a 944S2. Obvious suggestions are:
1. Fit 968 engine (and box)
2. Supercharge S2 engine
3. Sell car and buy 968 or tweeked 944 turbo
If still not satisfied:
4. Supercharge 968 or further modify 944 turbo
All options have their pro's and cons including cost, but the bottom line is the easiest conversion is to fit the 968 engine, run it without a cat, remap it and if you are lucky you will have 250bhp on a good day. Alternatively start saving, supercharge said 968 engine and then have over 350bhp. Supercharging the 944S2 engine is possible as most of the parts from out 968 kit will fit, you can also fit the 944turbo intercooler to save funds, but the problem is that you cannot easily map the ecu with the flap afm so you have to fit the 968 hot film unit, which costs.
1. Fit 968 engine (and box)
2. Supercharge S2 engine
3. Sell car and buy 968 or tweeked 944 turbo
If still not satisfied:
4. Supercharge 968 or further modify 944 turbo
All options have their pro's and cons including cost, but the bottom line is the easiest conversion is to fit the 968 engine, run it without a cat, remap it and if you are lucky you will have 250bhp on a good day. Alternatively start saving, supercharge said 968 engine and then have over 350bhp. Supercharging the 944S2 engine is possible as most of the parts from out 968 kit will fit, you can also fit the 944turbo intercooler to save funds, but the problem is that you cannot easily map the ecu with the flap afm so you have to fit the 968 hot film unit, which costs.
Why swap in the 968 box? Do the ratios not match well between the s2 box and 968 lump?
Or is it just a case of not too much extra work, so might as well while you're at it?
Just curious.
Also, while I'm asking inane questions - don't suppose you could tell me the torque limits (design/spec) of the various 944/968 transaxles?
Cheers,
Fatboy
ninemeister said:
Hmm, tuning a 944S2. Obvious suggestions are:
1. Fit 968 engine (and box)
2. Supercharge S2 engine
3. Sell car and buy 968 or tweeked 944 turbo
If still not satisfied:
4. Supercharge 968 or further modify 944 turbo
1. Fit 968 engine (and box)
2. Supercharge S2 engine
3. Sell car and buy 968 or tweeked 944 turbo
If still not satisfied:
4. Supercharge 968 or further modify 944 turbo
1>
then it ceases to be an s2 doesnt it ? also not sure about changing the running gear/clutch/torque tube
2>
as already stated, you can "not" tune an s2 cheaply, bunging in a SC will cost big bucks
3&4> then your not tuning an s2 are you ? DOH
I've often been interested in what a properly flowed head would do on an S2, a purely flowed head alone make 12/15bhp before/after dif on old school 16v VAG engine, not bigger valves or anything & thats a normal figure (indepentant engine dyno tests) & biggest gains are felt in the midrange. 9ms custom heads on his 993/964 convs are a big factor in his power increases so I bet there are gains to be had on the S2.
Posibly not worth it financially unless head is coming off anyway tho & just do it when head getting referbed.
Coupled to de-cat & remapping & a bit of time on the rollers playing with the fueling (as my 944T had, gained lots more by this than just slotting in the chip) the gains could be interesting.
Posibly not worth it financially unless head is coming off anyway tho & just do it when head getting referbed.
Coupled to de-cat & remapping & a bit of time on the rollers playing with the fueling (as my 944T had, gained lots more by this than just slotting in the chip) the gains could be interesting.
Iguana, I'm sure Ninemeister tried this along with an (ill fated) inlet manifold, If I remember correctly he was convinced that the thing preventing the S2 from being tuned was poor gas flow in the inlet side and had a new one fabriacted.
Unfortunately the gains were small and outweighed by the cost, and If my memory is correct the problem lay with the fundemental design of the head.
Well thats how I remember it, I stand to be corrected by greater intelects than myself, but I've abandoned any attempt to tune mine, I've accepted it for what it is (after all I made the choice of practicality versus power between the turbo and S2), and in the future will go for a turbo or wait for boxters to get into my meagre price range.
Andy.
Unfortunately the gains were small and outweighed by the cost, and If my memory is correct the problem lay with the fundemental design of the head.
Well thats how I remember it, I stand to be corrected by greater intelects than myself, but I've abandoned any attempt to tune mine, I've accepted it for what it is (after all I made the choice of practicality versus power between the turbo and S2), and in the future will go for a turbo or wait for boxters to get into my meagre price range.
Andy.
bite-me said:
ninemeister said:
Hmm, tuning a 944S2. Obvious suggestions are:
1. Fit 968 engine (and box)
2. Supercharge S2 engine
3. Sell car and buy 968 or tweeked 944 turbo
If still not satisfied:
4. Supercharge 968 or further modify 944 turbo
1. Fit 968 engine (and box)
2. Supercharge S2 engine
3. Sell car and buy 968 or tweeked 944 turbo
If still not satisfied:
4. Supercharge 968 or further modify 944 turbo
1>
then it ceases to be an s2 doesnt it ? also not sure about changing the running gear/clutch/torque tube
2>
as already stated, you can "not" tune an s2 cheaply, bunging in a SC will cost big bucks
3&4> then your not tuning an s2 are you ? DOH
Sometimes make me wonder why I bother.......
The 944S2 and 968 engines are capable of making 300bhp n/a, but you will not get this power from the standard engine without radical modifications because the problem lies in the cylinder head design as mentioned above. The issue is primarily that the intake port is completely the wrong shape and furthermore overlarge, so achieving a decent intake velocity is impossible without adding material. So, let's say you only want to add 30-40hp, you will need to take your 944S2 engine, remove the head, weld up the ports, machine new ports of the optimum shape, refit it, fit reground cams, and then remap it - total cost in the order of £5000 or alternativelyyou buy a used 968 engine for sub £2000, fit it for £500 and sell your old engine for £1000.
To achieve 300bhp you will need to do all of the above, fit radical cams, new springs, solid followers, individual throttle bodies, Motec or similar, headers and a free flow exhaust - total cost around £10-12,000 if done properly. Alternatively you can do the same engine swap as above and fit a blower, total cost around £7,000.
D'oh indeed.
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