HENRY - EXPECT A VISIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Discussion
Pies said:
having an incorrect mileage means this car (like others) is much cheaper than would be if it were showing correct mileage
I think the fact of the matter is the fact that if this car was showing its true mileage it may actually be worth more than it is now.
The stigma of not knowing its actual mileage, only that the one its showing is wrong, is the reason for the lesser value of the vehicle.
hobo said:
Pies said:
having an incorrect mileage means this car (like others) is much cheaper than would be if it were showing correct mileage
I think the fact of the matter is the fact that if this car was showing its true mileage it may actually be worth more than it is now.
The stigma of not knowing its actual mileage, only that the one its showing is wrong, is the reason for the lesser value of the vehicle.
Ain't that what i said
ed!lonman said:
rnjk4982 said:
spark_s said:
lonman said:
I don't. Invariably, I go to jail in most places and countries. 6 States and 11 countries and counting!!
“The final leg to Miami was long and fast. I-95 was the only way to go and
the Florida troopers knew it. Armed with what appeared to be the entire
force including two planes and a helicopter many of the Gumballers fell
victim to their mobilization effort. Chasing a Porsche GT2 with a Union Jack
on its roof proved a little too much even for them however. Congratulating
the driver over the police radio, which they were sure the Porsche was
monitoring, (he was!) that he was going so fast, that they were
diverting their officers attention to “easier targets”. Unsurprisingly “Rob”
was first across the finish at the Mandarin Oriental and celebrated with his
signature donuts leaving the bellman and cameramen gasping for air like
beached fish.”
“A spokesman for the FHP commented, “We were aware that the Gumball 3000 was due to be coming through Florida, but did not have all the details. The first car to enter into Florida was a Silver Porsche GT2 with a British flag on the roof, and I can tell you now, this guy really was hauling ass. When your helicopters are out run, and your planes can’t keep up, you have to close down the Interstate. We took the decision to do this in the interest of public safety. My buddy reckoned he covered the first 180 miles to Jacksonville in little over an hour. He picked him up as the I-95 hit Florida, by the next time Porsche was sighted he was going past mile marker 125, that was an hour later and over 180 miles away. Do the Math, this guy weren’t stopping for anyone. We caught up with him at the finish line and spoke to him, I can’t comment at this time. He was followed by 180 other high performance cars all exceeding the speed limit by a long way, but not so severely. I hear the guy in the Porsche won the rally….we need faster planes”
Miami Gazette.
“The final leg to Miami was long and fast. I-95 was the only way to go and
the Florida troopers knew it. Armed with what appeared to be the entire
force including two planes and a helicopter many of the Gumballers fell
victim to their mobilization effort. Chasing a Porsche GT2 with a Union Jack
on its roof proved a little too much even for them however. Congratulating
the driver over the police radio, which they were sure the Porsche was
monitoring, (he was!) that he was going so fast, that they were
diverting their officers attention to “easier targets”. Unsurprisingly “Rob”
was first across the finish at the Mandarin Oriental and celebrated with his
signature donuts leaving the bellman and cameramen gasping for air like
beached fish.”
“A spokesman for the FHP commented, “We were aware that the Gumball 3000 was due to be coming through Florida, but did not have all the details. The first car to enter into Florida was a Silver Porsche GT2 with a British flag on the roof, and I can tell you now, this guy really was hauling ass. When your helicopters are out run, and your planes can’t keep up, you have to close down the Interstate. We took the decision to do this in the interest of public safety. My buddy reckoned he covered the first 180 miles to Jacksonville in little over an hour. He picked him up as the I-95 hit Florida, by the next time Porsche was sighted he was going past mile marker 125, that was an hour later and over 180 miles away. Do the Math, this guy weren’t stopping for anyone. We caught up with him at the finish line and spoke to him, I can’t comment at this time. He was followed by 180 other high performance cars all exceeding the speed limit by a long way, but not so severely. I hear the guy in the Porsche won the rally….we need faster planes”
Miami Gazette.
Cool story. So Lonman what can you replace a GT2 with that's faster / better ?
I believe he's first on the list for a 997GT2
Edited by rnjk4982 on Saturday 21st October 00:29
Correct. Should do the job.
Lonman, why wait.
Buy a derestricted SL65 and do 214mph...
hobo said:
Pies said:
having an incorrect mileage means this car (like others) is much cheaper than would be if it were showing correct mileage
I think the fact of the matter is the fact that if this car was showing its true mileage it may actually be worth more than it is now.
The stigma of not knowing its actual mileage, only that the one its showing is wrong, is the reason for the lesser value of the vehicle.
Nah, you are forgetting the other issues. e.g. alledgedly its not so much a case of no service history, but no service full stop. Not to mention lots of driving at speed across unmade roads etc. It's had a hard life and it's got an expensive drivetrain that may not have had much looking after. If Henry was so confident it was bullet proof, why is the warrantied price 5k more?
hobo said:
Rob05, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
This isn't about the abuse the car has taken, the issue is the fact that the car is showing the wrong mileage & no-one seems to want to do anything about it.
Henry is not doing anything illegal, although some would say its morally wrong to be trading in clocked cars. Nothing new here but you do expect better of certain people.
This isn't about the abuse the car has taken, the issue is the fact that the car is showing the wrong mileage & no-one seems to want to do anything about it.
Henry is not doing anything illegal, although some would say its morally wrong to be trading in clocked cars. Nothing new here but you do expect better of certain people.
Having read the Ferrari forums alot... I think on that basis the whole dealer network should shut down?
Clocking is not something limited to dodgy old bangers/ ex-taxis. It appears to be very common for Ferraris to be clocked, so I doubt that is really the issue here.* *must stress, im only going off what I have read on here, im not accusing ferrari dealers are clocking them/ nor am I suggesting PH'ers have done the same. It has been mentioned a fair few times recently though on that forum.
This is nonsense.....if the mileage was correct and it had a service book with 4 stamps in it, this is a £60K car not a £50K car.........the car obviously isnt for everyone, but for a customer who hasnt got the budget it gets them into a GT2..........everything has a price, even if there is a bit of a "story" with it.........Henry has pitched it at £50K, thats his perogative, he may be right, he may be wrong,..........amazes me how many motor trade experts there are on here, give it a go gents, its piss easy, it really is (!)..I suspect if this was a 964 C2 with an incorrect mileage (as stated), nobody would bat an eyelid, the GT2 thing seems to have got everybody a little excited.........Henry is big enough and certainly ugly enough to stand his own corner, but enough is enough, this isnt what Pistonheads is about.............
Very interesting thread.
I would buy a car from Henry. Sadly I don't have £50K lying around just at the moment. Don't know if I'd spend it on that car. But I think its been represented perfectly fairly.
Besides. I'll bet there's a deal/means/way that that includes a warranty - possibly, with some ingenuity, a full Porsche one. Bargain.
I would buy a car from Henry. Sadly I don't have £50K lying around just at the moment. Don't know if I'd spend it on that car. But I think its been represented perfectly fairly.
Besides. I'll bet there's a deal/means/way that that includes a warranty - possibly, with some ingenuity, a full Porsche one. Bargain.
Although i agree with most of your opinions poorcard dealer i beg to differ on how much a 55aprox thmls GT2 would be worth with with all the correct stamps and only a fool would pay 60k for that car at this moment in time.
Even Porche have one now with 43thmls up at 59K and I'm sure you'd get at least a grand off that.
That car was and is worth around 45k to someone who knows what he is buying track day car fast toy etc but for most of us and i suspect including yourself there's no way you'd give 50k for a clocked thrashed tarted up gt2 cos that's what that car is which ever way you paint it.
While i do believe Henry has a right to ask whatever he wants for the car and has been more than accommodating here the cars history remain tatty and it sure has hell ain't no 50k bargain
Even Porche have one now with 43thmls up at 59K and I'm sure you'd get at least a grand off that.
That car was and is worth around 45k to someone who knows what he is buying track day car fast toy etc but for most of us and i suspect including yourself there's no way you'd give 50k for a clocked thrashed tarted up gt2 cos that's what that car is which ever way you paint it.
While i do believe Henry has a right to ask whatever he wants for the car and has been more than accommodating here the cars history remain tatty and it sure has hell ain't no 50k bargain
Good morning! Newbie here, so apologies in advance for offending anyone.
Having read every post on this thread (and related others), thanks for a most entertaining, instructive and stimulating set of contributions. Please indulge my asking some questions:
1. How many of us, as employees, have declared the whole truth in our CVs when applying for jobs (worth, say, £50k or more)? And when at the interview, how many of us have explained all relevant, negative issues which the headhunter or employer did not think to ask?
2. Similarly, for those who are self-employed, what does your marketing and sales literature look like? Declared everything, warts and all? If clients are to pay circa £50k for the services or products that you offer, I suspect they'd do some due diligence first. Or do you offer to do it for them?
In that regard, anyone paying so (comparatively) little for a GT2 would surely do some asking around, and would make up his or her own mind. Castigating Henry for an advert that offers some warning and invites enquiries does not appear to be fair. Maybe the warning is less robust than the postings here, but any buyer has got to be stupid not to see that it encourages the asking of the right questions. Lots of commercial operations and loads of individuals do much worse (no, that doesn't make it right, but I'm arguing about a sense of proportion here).
I'm not defending Henry - I've got nothing to do with him and my car buying history shows I steer clear of used car dealers. I've only ever bought a used car from a dealer once, and it was in far better shape than most of the cars I bought from privateers! The dealer was more honourable than the privateers, except for one. I now only buy new, pay a premium, accept the depreciation, and still I have to worry (a little) about the odd shunt or dent repair that was not declared when taking delivery of a new car.
Perhaps the moral issues appear clear cut in theory but I doubt that they are so simple (IMHO), especially in the context of what is normal today. Come on, folks, has Henry really committed a capital crime in the PH world???
He's put up a spirited defence, and that satisfies me. I am not in the market for a GT2, and certainly couldn't afford to run one, so I've no interest in owning the car. But like some others here, I reckon it will sell, and I very much like its history (take my hat off to you, Lonman, and to other PHers for elaborating on a very fine example of Porsche engineering!).
Sorry for the long post....
Having read every post on this thread (and related others), thanks for a most entertaining, instructive and stimulating set of contributions. Please indulge my asking some questions:
1. How many of us, as employees, have declared the whole truth in our CVs when applying for jobs (worth, say, £50k or more)? And when at the interview, how many of us have explained all relevant, negative issues which the headhunter or employer did not think to ask?
2. Similarly, for those who are self-employed, what does your marketing and sales literature look like? Declared everything, warts and all? If clients are to pay circa £50k for the services or products that you offer, I suspect they'd do some due diligence first. Or do you offer to do it for them?
In that regard, anyone paying so (comparatively) little for a GT2 would surely do some asking around, and would make up his or her own mind. Castigating Henry for an advert that offers some warning and invites enquiries does not appear to be fair. Maybe the warning is less robust than the postings here, but any buyer has got to be stupid not to see that it encourages the asking of the right questions. Lots of commercial operations and loads of individuals do much worse (no, that doesn't make it right, but I'm arguing about a sense of proportion here).
I'm not defending Henry - I've got nothing to do with him and my car buying history shows I steer clear of used car dealers. I've only ever bought a used car from a dealer once, and it was in far better shape than most of the cars I bought from privateers! The dealer was more honourable than the privateers, except for one. I now only buy new, pay a premium, accept the depreciation, and still I have to worry (a little) about the odd shunt or dent repair that was not declared when taking delivery of a new car.
Perhaps the moral issues appear clear cut in theory but I doubt that they are so simple (IMHO), especially in the context of what is normal today. Come on, folks, has Henry really committed a capital crime in the PH world???
He's put up a spirited defence, and that satisfies me. I am not in the market for a GT2, and certainly couldn't afford to run one, so I've no interest in owning the car. But like some others here, I reckon it will sell, and I very much like its history (take my hat off to you, Lonman, and to other PHers for elaborating on a very fine example of Porsche engineering!).
Sorry for the long post....
Rob, if the car is worth £45K to a dealer to write a cheque (this is not an easy car to value), then Henry isnt wide of the mark at £50K asking price........its a bit like me having a car thats on the VCAR register in my showroom, its had a prang, its been repaired, it drives as it should, it is what it is...........most people would pay more money and get a car not on the register, however there is always a customer who the 20% saving is more important to than if the car appears on a register, there is a customer for every car, and at the end of the day the market will dictate if the price is right..........if the car was £5K cheaper, would Henry be getting the bashing he has had??
Ps not suggesting the GT2 is on the VCAR register!!!!!!!!!
Edited by POORCARDEALER on Sunday 22 October 09:36
From my point of view the thing I don't understand is why a dealer with a good reputation (Henry), would want to get involved with a vehicle such as this, and tarnish his image. Surely its not worth it?
Yes it may not be illegal, and he has stated he cannot guarantee the mileage, but if the car looked suspect, why not walk away rather than put reputation at risk as to the kind of stock you hold?
He is right the car is not for everyone, but surely this car is also by the same token not for all types of dealers, let it go to the lesser dealers with more questionable stock? Sure the car's price reflects its unkown and suspect history, but I feel he should have taken a higher moral stance on this. I wouldn't want my business associated with anything questionable.
If I were to go and look at a car at Henry's in the future, I have to say that this will unfortunately be at the back of my mind, and I wouldn't trust the car and dealer as I perhaps would have in the past.
Best to steer clear of the suspect stuff I think. Reputation is very hard to earn, and very easy to lose.
Yes it may not be illegal, and he has stated he cannot guarantee the mileage, but if the car looked suspect, why not walk away rather than put reputation at risk as to the kind of stock you hold?
He is right the car is not for everyone, but surely this car is also by the same token not for all types of dealers, let it go to the lesser dealers with more questionable stock? Sure the car's price reflects its unkown and suspect history, but I feel he should have taken a higher moral stance on this. I wouldn't want my business associated with anything questionable.
If I were to go and look at a car at Henry's in the future, I have to say that this will unfortunately be at the back of my mind, and I wouldn't trust the car and dealer as I perhaps would have in the past.
Best to steer clear of the suspect stuff I think. Reputation is very hard to earn, and very easy to lose.
Edited by ek993 on Sunday 22 October 10:15
ek993 said:
From my point of view the thing I don't understand is why a dealer with a good reputation (Henry), would want to get involved with a vehicle such as this, and tarnish his image. Surely its not worth it?
Too bloomin' right.
ek993 said:
Yes it may not be illegal, and he has stated he cannot guarantee the mileage, but if the car looked suspect, why not walk away rather than put reputation at risk as to the kind of stock you hold?
Absolutely bloomin' right.
ek993 said:
He is right the car is not for everyone, but surely this car is also by the same token not for all types of dealers, let it go to the lesser dealers with more questionable stock?
Best to steer clear of the suspect stuff I think. Reputation is very hard to earn, and very easy to lose.
Best to steer clear of the suspect stuff I think. Reputation is very hard to earn, and very easy to lose.
Good points, well made. I think Henry has made an error here. It's one thing to buy this clocked thrashed car to sell on, but to come on PH and openly court the 'orrible folks here for opinions was just daft.
Henry isn't stupid, but it was stupid to get involved with such a notorious car and then actively get a thread started about it on PH. Obviously someone on PH was going to pick up on the fact that this car is "1 CPU" from the Gumball. I mean, obviously this was going to come out. And therefore it was very obvious that half the folks on here would say he was ill-advised to take the car on to sell, and that's even before we come on to the issue of the wording of the advert on his web site. If I was selling the car, I would write in the ad "we have to assume this car is clocked" as well as the existing "we can not guarantee the mileage to be correct"......simple as that.ek993 said:
From my point of view the thing I don't understand is why a dealer with a good reputation (Henry), would want to get involved with a vehicle such as this, and tarnish his image. Surely its not worth it?
I treat all cars as I find them. I do, and hopefully always will, stock cars from under £5k to well over £50k. Similarly we sell cars from the early 1980`s to almost new. It would be very easy now funds permit to simply sell nearly new cars that are all "perfect" but that isn`t what floats my boat.
Our nearly new 997 C4S at £69,995 is lovely, but it doesn`t really excite me in the sense that for £70k it ought to be a nice car and most 997 C4S`s are going to be in pretty good shape so to some extent any monkey could buy and sell them. What excites me is when I find the best 1999 996 in the country, or a really lovely 964 for £15k because you`re going into the market and using your skills to cherry pick the good from the bad where there are often far more bad than good !
Every now and again we come accross an interesting car that, whilst it might not be for everyone, offers someone the chance to buy into a model at a previously impossible price point. I`m not going to go over old ground defending this GT2 suffice to say I`m happy the car is currently a sound enough vehicle that still does what it says on the tin and looks the part. I would own it myself a a personal car. If I thought for one minute it was a cut & shut it wouldn`t be here! There are issues, there have to be because there is no such thing as a free lunch, I am happy that the eventual buyer of this car will know exactly what they have bought.
I would hope by now people realise that as a company we set our bar higher than most in terms of letting people know what they are buying into. I am proud of the fact that in 20 years selling cars, 15 of them Porsches, I have never even had to retain the services of a solicitor other than for conveyancing purposes, let alone attend a court hearing in relation to a dis-satisfied customer. I wonder how many of my counterparts can say that.
This car may not be for everyone but that`s fine, we have over 30 other full service history, no skeletons in the cupboard cars, some of which are in the top 5% of what`s currently available in the UK. Should I merely go out and buy cars that fall into that upper 5% bracket ? I could but the problem is they are also some of the more expensive examples of their type and potentially the most depreciation prone if used in anger, so I offer a wider selction. Again we make sure people know what they are buying and try and help steer them in the direction that suits them rather than what we`d most like to sell.
Another car I bought on Saturday and which should be coming in next week is a left hand drive 964. It`s got a mark on every panel, a damp engine and hasn`t been serviced for ages. It would be easy to dismiss it and say no thanks but we`ll be selling that car for under £9k. The interior is good, it isn`t riddled with rust and it drives really well. So I think it represents better value than the normal rust riddled 3.0 SC`s offered at that price. As a 964 it isn`t a car I`d say judge our company on but as a sub £10k (with change) Porsche 911 I don`t know of many dealers who could better it so it can have space in the yard for someone with a limited budget but who wants a modern driving Porsche 911. The difference is we won`t sweep the problems under the carpet like everyone else (private sellers included). We aren`t going to kid someone this is the best one in the world, we don`t have to it`s priced accordingly. And please don`t let`s go off onto a whole different track offering suggestions for better sub £9k 911`s!
As for courting pistonheads to ask the cheapest GT2 they had seen for sale, that was a genuine question. I wanted to make sure my guess as to the previously unseen price point was correct and I hadn`t missed anything !
As ever, keep smiling.
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Sunday 22 October 11:27
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