996-997 wet-sump engine reliability: enter your stats here!

996-997 wet-sump engine reliability: enter your stats here!

Author
Discussion

jcelee

1,039 posts

243 months

Thursday 11th August 2011
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Am I right in thinking experience suggests fewer problems with 2.5 and 2.7 engines then?

hartech

1,929 posts

216 months

Wednesday 17th August 2011
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Yes the smaller the engine the less the problems - except early engines with mainly IMS issues.

Baz

DickusMaximus

321 posts

150 months

Friday 9th September 2011
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Ballcock said:
I honestly think this leaky seal worry syndrome is going to die a death within a short few years when the first of the 996's can be bought for £15k and are being driven by folk who what to get in the car rather than lie under it polishing bits.
How about £10k :-)

I've actually joined piston heads precisely because I want to buy a 996 C2 for low money. Just need to shift a 540i and Focus ST and I'll be in business. Amazing value I think as long as I do the Hartech warranty or have the spare moolah for a new engine if necessary. Way I see it - I'd pay £16k for a 996 so buy one for 10 and keep 6 aside just in case.

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Friday 9th September 2011
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DickusMaximus said:
Ballcock said:
I honestly think this leaky seal worry syndrome is going to die a death within a short few years when the first of the 996's can be bought for £15k and are being driven by folk who what to get in the car rather than lie under it polishing bits.
How about £10k :-)

I've actually joined piston heads precisely because I want to buy a 996 C2 for low money. Just need to shift a 540i and Focus ST and I'll be in business. Amazing value I think as long as I do the Hartech warranty or have the spare moolah for a new engine if necessary. Way I see it - I'd pay £16k for a 996 so buy one for 10 and keep 6 aside just in case.
Thats assuming your 10k 996 doesnt need anything else spending on it, and that is pretty unlikely as 10k is the bottom of the market.

MTR

DickusMaximus

321 posts

150 months

Friday 9th September 2011
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mollytherocker said:
Thats assuming your 10k 996 doesnt need anything else spending on it, and that is pretty unlikely as 10k is the bottom of the market.

MTR
I've posted my original reply on the "911 for ten grand" forum too and there are seemingly more people on that one for this topic :-)

mayes911

5,188 posts

184 months

Tuesday 13th September 2011
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this post is never going to work or show a true picture.if anything it is going to show an over exaggerated view of failures .people who post or look at forums have either had a failure or are worried,i am one of those who had a failure nearly 5 years ago so started looking more into the problems and joined pistonheads and read heavily on other forums.what you have to look at is the amount of 986/7 and 996/7 gen1 cars that came in to the uk in the 10 years (1998-2008) and how many failures there have been.but you will never know how many were repaired under warranty etc.as a rough guide (purely quess work)pgb must have imported some 50000 cars in that time.so lets say they had 4 cars a week in to be repaired over the last 5 years and all the indies together the same.thats 2080 cars or a 4% failure rate.now i have only ever read of say 10+ cars actually failing on these forums.also to paint a truer picture of failure you need to factor in the:
TYPE OF FAILURE
MODEL(are certain models more likely to fail)
YEAR (are some years better than others this is true for the later ims)
MILEAGE OF FAILURE (what miles are they failing ie do oval bores occur only on higher mileage cars)
GEARBOX TYPE.(does a tiptronic fair better than a manual or visa versa)

then again some cars have had numerous owners and the new owner maybe unaware of an engine replaced under warranty and would proudly say 60000 miles and still going strong!
imho failure rate is still fairly low (less than 5%)and if you are unlucky the repair can be lot less than a Ferrari service,plus the 996/7 represents a cheap secondhand sports car even if you factor in a Hartech upgrade or lifetime plan.

so keep on driving and enjoy a great car

copied from my reply on the post Has your 996/7 engine had a major rebuild

Edited by mayes911 on Tuesday 13th September 15:43

dumpy

58 posts

151 months

Saturday 17th September 2011
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On The 10k bit ive just done exactly that. Got a 10k 996 3.4. Its done over 100k had an easyish life on the motorway, got great history and bar odds n sods like replaceing bits of broken undertray plastic, giving it a service and ordering some nice stainless back boxes it seems mint and drives as well is i could have hoped for. Ive got no warranty and frankly if i blow the engine i could probably get 5k for it in bits. I could lose more than that buying a new 320d BMW in 1st year depreciation. I read all the stuff in the forums first and and then said sod it i am having one anyway. Just do it!

hartech

1,929 posts

216 months

Sunday 18th September 2011
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good for you dumpy and good luck

Baz

dumpy

58 posts

151 months

Sunday 18th September 2011
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Thanks Baz

Been for a blast today and god its fun. Hope i dont need your services any time soon Baz (No offense)but im not far away and am getting a bit attached to it so if she does blow not sure id have the heart to break her!

Monty Zoomer

1,459 posts

156 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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noumenon said:
This is missing the many happy owners who don't have any issues. How do you account for those?
laugh They don't.

fastgerman

1,911 posts

194 months

Wednesday 12th October 2011
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Monty Zoomer said:
noumenon said:
This is missing the many happy owners who don't have any issues. How do you account for those?
laugh They don't.
Exactly my point on the other 'stickied' post at the top of the Porsche forum. Porsche owners will only find it if they know Pistonheads and are searching for engine problems. Maybe <5% of all Porsche owners?

Fair enough some people have had issues but surely this is dragging down the prices of your cars - Ferrari's need cam belts changing every year or they can go bang - They aren't sub £10k because of this.

When I used the pole on the other post, 110 reported no problems, 11 reported problems and 35 reported that they wouldn't buy one because of problems. I don't think 10% of all Porsche 996's and Boxters explode?

Porsche customer services are the issue here and not the car. My BMW's have had engines replaced on a 328i Sport and an E46 M3. These were all FOC as they had FBMWSH and weren't in Warranty, however had <60k miles. Porsche should make similar gestures, however I bet Ferrari, Maserati, Aston etc don't.

Globs

13,841 posts

230 months

Wednesday 12th October 2011
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fastgerman said:
When I used the poll on the other post, 110 reported no problems, 11 reported problems and 35 reported that they wouldn't buy one because of problems. I don't think 10% of all Porsche 996's and Boxters explode?.
You are mixing statistics!!
Firstly it's 996,997,986,987+Cayman - not just 996+Boxster...

Secondly the issue is one of 'when' it will let go, not 'if'. If a typical model lasts 10 years before going pop and on average it gets an owner every 2 years - or 5 owners in a lifetime, the owners will report a 20% failure rate (It fails for 1 of the 5 owners), but the actual failure rate at the end of the 10 years will be 100%.

So in my example is it 20% or 100%? Well it's both, because we are using statistics.

The range of the going pop seems to be from about 7.5k to 120k so somewhere in there for the average car it will fail. If you are driving you'll record it as a failure, if not you're happy. The point is, people are risk averse and may not fancy playing the odds, especially as driving style plays a big factor so an exuberant drive could cause the pop to happen to you instead of further down the line.


fastgerman

1,911 posts

194 months

Wednesday 12th October 2011
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Globs said:
fastgerman said:
When I used the poll on the other post, 110 reported no problems, 11 reported problems and 35 reported that they wouldn't buy one because of problems. I don't think 10% of all Porsche 996's and Boxters explode?.
You are mixing statistics!!
Firstly it's 996,997,986,987+Cayman - not just 996+Boxster...

Secondly the issue is one of 'when' it will let go, not 'if'. If a typical model lasts 10 years before going pop and on average it gets an owner every 2 years - or 5 owners in a lifetime, the owners will report a 20% failure rate (It fails for 1 of the 5 owners), but the actual failure rate at the end of the 10 years will be 100%.

So in my example is it 20% or 100%? Well it's both, because we are using statistics.

The range of the going pop seems to be from about 7.5k to 120k so somewhere in there for the average car it will fail. If you are driving you'll record it as a failure, if not you're happy. The point is, people are risk averse and may not fancy playing the odds, especially as driving style plays a big factor so an exuberant drive could cause the pop to happen to you instead of further down the line.

Forgive me, but did you say 100% of 996's and 997's will go 'pop' in 10 years or any amount of years? Did you have too much snap and crackle? What car do you have?

A 997 S is a £80k car with options, maybe more. The engine costs about £15k but from the reports I heard at Porsche Centre Guildford, Porsche were going halves on a guy with a Boxter 2.7 because it had FPSH, however I do not know this person so I'm just taking it as info. I don't know whether 90% of users here are making up statistics? What would be fact is if somebody at Porsche HQ published a % based on Chassis number and this could be done by somebody that worked in the warranty dept. Why not start there rather than ruining peoples Porsche experience? They are fantastic cars and should be driven hard, otherwise buy a Prius. A Porsche will cost far less to run than anything Italian or British of similar new value. Just enjoy! Oh and read through adds on 930's and 964's and see how many have had rebuilds. 993's seem to be the exception but maybe they aren't old enough yet.

mollytherocker

14,365 posts

208 months

Wednesday 12th October 2011
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Maybe we need to look at this another way.

Every single engine ever made, no matter by whom, will have a major failure eventually. I am sure we can agree on that. Yes, even my 'hewn from granite and kissed by virgin angels' 993 will need a rebuild eventually.biggrin

It is my view that these M96 type engines will fail and need a rebuild earlier than the average similar aged car.

How much earlier, is the question. There is a good chance that you could buy a car and keep it for a few years and have no problems with the engine at all.

The point is that there is a higher risk than would normally be the case due to the inherent design faults that have been well documented and proven.

Is that fair?

MTR




Globs

13,841 posts

230 months

Wednesday 12th October 2011
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fastgerman said:
Forgive me, but did you say 100% of 996's and 997's will go 'pop' in 10 years
I said what I said - it's all in english, and spelt pretty much correctly wink.
My example was, as I said, to illustrate the difference between various statistics.

I do however suspect that most of them will have failed by 100k, can you seriously see many of them making it further?
Perhaps if my mum drove one it would last a bit longer... but most people how own them want to go above 25mph.

fastgerman

1,911 posts

194 months

Wednesday 12th October 2011
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Most would go by 100k miles?! I'll give you a chance, let's say that means 51%. Are you serious? This is what these 2 x stickied posts have done. Quite ridiculous! Do you have a 911 then? Did it go 'pop'?!

Globs

13,841 posts

230 months

Wednesday 12th October 2011
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fastgerman said:
I'll give you a chance,
No, I don't need a chance, my opinions stand on their own thanks.

If you'd like to try to change them you'll have to provide some technical information to convince an engineer as I don't respond to starry eyed drivel or hand wringing optimism. The laws of physics and materials science will do fine.

I also know how a fission reactor works but no - I don't own one of those, if that helps.

fastgerman

1,911 posts

194 months

Wednesday 12th October 2011
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You've quoted about 7% of what I've written. This thread should be un-stickied, it is unnecessary for such a large automotive website to have this at the top of the Porsche section. It is extremely bad advertising and wouldn't be seen on any other top manufacturer forums as the main focus point. Yes it should be discussed and yes I feel sorry for those that have had issues especially where Porsche hasn't assisted with costs where I know BMW would. However the no1 post at the top of a Porsche forum is irresponsible of PH in my opinion. It wil remain no1 by itself if there is enough interest.

STiG911

1,210 posts

166 months

Wednesday 12th October 2011
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Globs said:
No, I don't need a chance, my opinions stand on their own thanks.

If you'd like to try to change them you'll have to provide some technical information to convince an engineer as I don't respond to starry eyed drivel or hand wringing optimism. The laws of physics and materials science will do fine.

I also know how a fission reactor works but no - I don't own one of those, if that helps.
'When, not if' - '100% of engines will fail by 100k' Pointless and markedly false statements backed up with precisely no facts whatsoever.
The cars and their engines will last as long as they are used as the maker intended, and looked after correctly. Any engineer (and apparent nuclear scientist) would research their opinion before voicing it. There's a wealth of detail in this thread which you seem to have bypassed.
For the record, there's been at least one 997 with 120k+ on the PH classfieds this year WITHOUT a rebuild. Your 'opinion' stands in a very lonely place.

Globs

13,841 posts

230 months

Wednesday 12th October 2011
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fastgerman said:
It is extremely bad advertising
This thread is not an advert, I refer you to your local OPC for those. Perhaps you are mistaking PH for some sycophantic fan club like PCGB?

Additionally if you feel that these engine failures are such a bad thing for Porsche, please feel free to contact the people responsible at Porsche AG thumbup
I'm sure they'll be delighted to bend over backwards and sell you a new warranty (conditions apply).

And I thought shooting the messenger was so yesterday (sighs, puffs on pipe).