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fastgerman

822 posts

75 months

[news] 
Wednesday 12th October 2011 quote quote all
You've quoted about 7% of what I've written. This thread should be un-stickied, it is unnecessary for such a large automotive website to have this at the top of the Porsche section. It is extremely bad advertising and wouldn't be seen on any other top manufacturer forums as the main focus point. Yes it should be discussed and yes I feel sorry for those that have had issues especially where Porsche hasn't assisted with costs where I know BMW would. However the no1 post at the top of a Porsche forum is irresponsible of PH in my opinion. It wil remain no1 by itself if there is enough interest.

STiG911

743 posts

47 months

[news] 
Wednesday 12th October 2011 quote quote all
Globs said:
No, I don't need a chance, my opinions stand on their own thanks.

If you'd like to try to change them you'll have to provide some technical information to convince an engineer as I don't respond to starry eyed drivel or hand wringing optimism. The laws of physics and materials science will do fine.

I also know how a fission reactor works but no - I don't own one of those, if that helps.
'When, not if' - '100% of engines will fail by 100k' Pointless and markedly false statements backed up with precisely no facts whatsoever.
The cars and their engines will last as long as they are used as the maker intended, and looked after correctly. Any engineer (and apparent nuclear scientist) would research their opinion before voicing it. There's a wealth of detail in this thread which you seem to have bypassed.
For the record, there's been at least one 997 with 120k+ on the PH classfieds this year WITHOUT a rebuild. Your 'opinion' stands in a very lonely place.

Globs

13,131 posts

111 months

[news] 
Wednesday 12th October 2011 quote quote all
fastgerman said:
It is extremely bad advertising
This thread is not an advert, I refer you to your local OPC for those. Perhaps you are mistaking PH for some sycophantic fan club like PCGB?

Additionally if you feel that these engine failures are such a bad thing for Porsche, please feel free to contact the people responsible at Porsche AG thumbup
I'm sure they'll be delighted to bend over backwards and sell you a new warranty (conditions apply).

And I thought shooting the messenger was so yesterday (sighs, puffs on pipe).

Globs

13,131 posts

111 months

[news] 
Wednesday 12th October 2011 quote quote all
STiG911 said:
'100% of engines will fail by 100k' Pointless and markedly false statements backed up with precisely no facts whatsoever.
I hope you read your warranty small print better than you read my 19:45 post.
I'm sure thread hijacking is trendy in some places but it's just messing up this thread, start your own if you want to bh about your limited comprehension of english.

FFS I give a statistical example and idiots start arguing about the fecking numbers. Christ, were you like this in Algebra arguing that X might not be 2, it might be 11 instead?

Monty Zoomer

1,409 posts

37 months

[news] 
Thursday 13th October 2011 quote quote all
fastgerman said:
Globs said:
Secondly the issue is one of 'when' it will let go, not 'if'. If a typical model lasts 10 years before going pop and on average it gets an owner every 2 years - or 5 owners in a lifetime, the owners will report a 20% failure rate (It fails for 1 of the 5 owners), but the actual failure rate at the end of the 10 years will be 100%.

90% of users here are making up statistics?
These engines have been in production for well over ten years now, so if they actually did blow up in only ten years that would mean that by now Porsche would have to produce more than twice as many engines as they actually need, so that less than half can go in their new cars and more than half are shipped out to Porsche dealers every day to be frantically fitted into their victims' cars. Either that or Hartech's knocking out repaired cars more quickly than Porsche are building them.

98.872% of users here are making up statistics. smile

hartech said:
We also tested a teflon coated frying pan and discovered that if very high temperatures are directed underneath the coating softens and the older the pan the sooner it does.
roflroflrofl

That's brilliant, I couldn't stop laughing for ages when I read that.

Porsche's engineers will be green with envy when they find out how advanced your R&D department is.

roflroflrofl
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fastgerman

822 posts

75 months

[news] 
Thursday 13th October 2011 quote quote all
Perhaps a new thread is required including chassis number and cost incurred to repair. If Porsche have paid then no issue, if the owner has paid and it's significant to them, then it should be reported, otherwise this is just advertising for specialists and rubbing the Porsche brand in the dirt for later cars.

For info, I have bought a 997 Carrera S as heard running costs weren't too different to my E46 M3. So far, petrol is 4 mpg worse but that's it. I bet a Ferrari 360, Maserati 4200 or Aston V8 Vantage would cost more to run. Even a BMW M6 out of warranty with Vanos and SMG issues can be costly. These are not at the top of their forums however.

Globs

13,131 posts

111 months

[news] 
Thursday 13th October 2011 quote quote all
Monty Zoomer said:
Porsche's engineers will be green with envy when they find out how advanced your R&D department is.
They probably are, Porsche's engineering record for engines is pretty sad isn't it wink


noumenon

1,152 posts

84 months

[news] 
Thursday 13th October 2011 quote quote all
Globs said:
They probably are, Porsche's engineering record for engines is pretty sad isn't it wink
Are they really that different from other manufacturers? The first batch of any engines is likely to have some teething issues. These engines are comparatively low volume, compared to say a ford four pot. So 100,000 engines would be a few months (or even weeks?) of a new ford model, which would be signed off as "well new model, kind of expected", whereas in the Porsche it that could be years worth of engines and problems (and hence fixes) would be slower as fewer problems develop over a longer period of time.

Not defending Porsche, but just another angle to consider.

STiG911

743 posts

47 months

[news] 
Thursday 13th October 2011 quote quote all
Globs said:
STiG911 said:
'100% of engines will fail by 100k' Pointless and markedly false statements backed up with precisely no facts whatsoever.
I hope you read your warranty small print better than you read my 19:45 post.
I'm sure thread hijacking is trendy in some places but it's just messing up this thread, start your own if you want to bh about your limited comprehension of english.

FFS I give a statistical example and idiots start arguing about the fecking numbers. Christ, were you like this in Algebra arguing that X might not be 2, it might be 11 instead?
In your 19:45 post: 'but the actual failure rate at the end of the 10 years will be 100%.' This isn't vastly different from what I said, I simply summarised your made up facts.
I'm not hijacking threads either - I'm voicing my opinion. Something you also claim to be doing, so get over yourself.

hartech

1,556 posts

97 months

[news] 
Thursday 13th October 2011 quote quote all
So the brilliant Porsche engineers design and make an engine which has flaws that years later they correct by introducing a closed deck design and different cylinder material (that they used to use years before) and proclaim how superior their new design is because of it.

Years before they show their new design, we at Hartech announced that the open deck was the major problem and managed to design a modification to correct the error and convert their flawed engine to a closed deck design - we then repair their cracked cylinders (to enable owners to get going again for less than the cost of a new engine with the same flaws) and when they bring out a newer version of the "old engine" which has cylinder scoring problems - we at Hartech test it and work out what the problem is and solve it and again manage to modify their flawed engine to improve that potential problem - and you Monty Zoomer think it is us that are laughable - Boot and the other Foot seems to come into it to me.

Furthermore when the piston coating on the "older design" works fine but the exact same coating gradually flakes off the newer (otherwise identical) pistons (bearing in mind that our test that have already shown that the later cylinders run hotter) decide to find a simple way to test if softening temperatures and plastic coatings could be a contributory cause - and prove it and again find a cure for the Porsche engineers problems.

There are just 14 of us and we have to earn our living from caring for Porsches before we find time and the money to try and cure their mistakes. To suggest they have a right to laugh at us because we don't have the resources they do is frankly is insulting and the actions of a biggot.

The truth is that these engines have been designed to be cheaper to manufacture and to do this they run closer to their operating limit than the older designs (that cost too much to make) did. As a result - those cars that are driven to the absolute limit (or are not cared for properly) may fail before 100K - but those driven modestly (which is by the far greater majority) and warmed up properly etc - may last for over 100K - but they are not as strong as the older designs and this benefits careful owners more.

Some design aspects (like the older IMS bearing design) do not favour any type of driving and are random and can affect anyone (although the later design was indeed better).

The decision on how to design the engines and what to source in parts - the quality and from whom - will not be done by the engineers at Porsche but by other cost saving departments.

I would guess that the engineers at Porsche - far from laughing at Hartech would be in quiet admiration that such a small business can introduce solutions that they themselves probably promoted in their original designs - and prolong the life of the cars they designed but were handicapped by financial considerations as the first priority.


Baz

fastgerman

822 posts

75 months

[news] 
Thursday 13th October 2011 quote quote all
hartech said:
So the brilliant Porsche engineers design and make an engine which has flaws that years later they correct by introducing a closed deck design and different cylinder material (that they used to use years before) and proclaim how superior their new design is because of it.

Years before they show their new design, we at Hartech announced that the open deck was the major problem and managed to design a modification to correct the error and convert their flawed engine to a closed deck design - we then repair their cracked cylinders (to enable owners to get going again for less than the cost of a new engine with the same flaws) and when they bring out a newer version of the "old engine" which has cylinder scoring problems - we at Hartech test it and work out what the problem is and solve it and again manage to modify their flawed engine to improve that potential problem - and you Monty Zoomer think it is us that are laughable - Boot and the other Foot seems to come into it to me.

Furthermore when the piston coating on the "older design" works fine but the exact same coating gradually flakes off the newer (otherwise identical) pistons (bearing in mind that our test that have already shown that the later cylinders run hotter) decide to find a simple way to test if softening temperatures and plastic coatings could be a contributory cause - and prove it and again find a cure for the Porsche engineers problems.

There are just 14 of us and we have to earn our living from caring for Porsches before we find time and the money to try and cure their mistakes. To suggest they have a right to laugh at us because we don't have the resources they do is frankly is insulting and the actions of a biggot.

The truth is that these engines have been designed to be cheaper to manufacture and to do this they run closer to their operating limit than the older designs (that cost too much to make) did. As a result - those cars that are driven to the absolute limit (or are not cared for properly) may fail before 100K - but those driven modestly (which is by the far greater majority) and warmed up properly etc - may last for over 100K - but they are not as strong as the older designs and this benefits careful owners more.

Some design aspects (like the older IMS bearing design) do not favour any type of driving and are random and can affect anyone (although the later design was indeed better).

The decision on how to design the engines and what to source in parts - the quality and from whom - will not be done by the engineers at Porsche but by other cost saving departments.

I would guess that the engineers at Porsche - far from laughing at Hartech would be in quiet admiration that such a small business can introduce solutions that they themselves probably promoted in their original designs - and prolong the life of the cars they designed but were handicapped by financial considerations as the first priority.


Baz
Baz, I'm sure your company and research are exceptional and I know you have carried out work to fix cars for less than the main dealer, so please don't take anything I write as an insult. Have you sent your findings to Porsche GB Reading or HQ to see their response? I would be interested to read it as I'm sure others would.

ScienceTeacher

166 posts

65 months

[news] 
Thursday 13th October 2011 quote quote all
Porsche GB have studiously avoided any recognition of Hartech, despite their name being all over Porsche forums and familiar to most enthusiasts. Hartech's research and exhaustive documentation (see website) demonstrate shameful and well-known shortcomings.

Globs

13,131 posts

111 months

[news] 
Thursday 13th October 2011 quote quote all
noumenon said:
The first batch of any engines is likely to have some teething issues.
Except this is not the first batch, it's a whole decade of mass production, and these are not 'teething' issues either, they are engine destroyers.

Globs

13,131 posts

111 months

[news] 
Thursday 13th October 2011 quote quote all
STiG911 said:
In your 19:45 post: 'but the actual failure rate at the end of the 10 years will be 100%.' This isn't vastly different from what I said, I simply summarised your made up facts.
No stig, you are summarising my made up example.
You may as well have a go at me for assuming a new owner every 2 years, as I wrote that too.

Regardless I think that actual failure rate at £100k miles will be over 90%.
I.e. for every 100 cars left on the road, over 90 will have had new engines - some more than once.

noumenon

1,152 posts

84 months

[news] 
Friday 14th October 2011 quote quote all
Globs said:
Regardless I think that actual failure rate at £100k miles will be over 90%.
I.e. for every 100 cars left on the road, over 90 will have had new engines - some more than once.
How do you get to that number?

STiG911

743 posts

47 months

[news] 
Friday 14th October 2011 quote quote all
noumenon said:
Globs said:
Regardless I think that actual failure rate at £100k miles will be over 90%.
I.e. for every 100 cars left on the road, over 90 will have had new engines - some more than once.
How do you get to that number?
Probably read it in the Daily Mail.

Globs

13,131 posts

111 months

[news] 
Friday 14th October 2011 quote quote all
STiG911 said:
noumenon said:
Globs said:
Regardless I think that actual failure rate at £100k miles will be over 90%.
I.e. for every 100 cars left on the road, over 90 will have had new engines - some more than once.
How do you get to that number?
Probably read it in the Daily Mail.
I know people are too cynical and they say 'There's no reason why they shouldn't _all_ fail', but frankly I'm far more optimistic than that. For instance the main issue in early Boxsters is the IMS bearing, but if they survive a few thousand miles the oil seal gets worn so despite Porsches strange ideas they actually get lubricated and live far longer.

Then there are people who do short journeys and never quite warm up the engine all the way through, and this same group may then take long journeys very easily indeed, saving fuel and inadvertently their wallet engine too.

The number of 'lucky cars' could therefore be as high as 10%, giving you a lower failure rate of 90% of these cars.


Edited by Globs on Friday 14th October 22:21

///ajd

567 posts

86 months

[news] 
Sunday 16th October 2011 quote quote all
fastgerman said:
Perhaps a new thread is required including chassis number and cost incurred to repair. If Porsche have paid then no issue, if the owner has paid and it's significant to them, then it should be reported, otherwise this is just advertising for specialists and rubbing the Porsche brand in the dirt for later cars.

For info, I have bought a 997 Carrera S as heard running costs weren't too different to my E46 M3. So far, petrol is 4 mpg worse but that's it. I bet a Ferrari 360, Maserati 4200 or Aston V8 Vantage would cost more to run. Even a BMW M6 out of warranty with Vanos and SMG issues can be costly. These are not at the top of their forums however.
I think that highlighting the problem I appropriate as:

1. The failure rate is worryingly high IMO
2. The cost to fix is typically £7k+ - a lot for some owners who may see £10k 996s as cheap ownership prospect. The costs could bite some.
3. Porsche have shown no interest in stepping up, hiding behind warranty. This is quite different to eg how BMW responded when the big end on E46 M3s started failing - they just fixed them.

It sounds like you are worried about the issue affecting the residuals and are trying to suppress it.

hartech

1,556 posts

97 months

[news] 
Sunday 16th October 2011 quote quote all
Residuals have already been affected - that is the wonder of a free market economy - it always finds the right balance eventually.

Bearing in mind that there are ways to minimise the repair cost of finding your car has a damaged engine (for example by our Lifetime Maintenance Plan that for a similar overall cost to servicing, repairs elsewhere reduces the potential cost of an engine failure to just parts - which anyone with a Porsche should be able to afford) - anyone in the UL can take out that point "that it will cost about £7K minimum if the engine fails" to nearer £1500 to £2K max including various improvements.

Such a car can therefore be affordable even though there is undeniably a small chance of an otherwise expensive engine failure.

Baz


Gary11

3,848 posts

81 months

[news] 
Sunday 16th October 2011 quote quote all


If it helps FWIW most indies and OPC I visit have replaced "many" engines,many retail sale (privately owned) M96/7 cars I look at have had new engines or display early stage symtoms of failure it is IMO a problem of a severe nature not manifested in any other mainstream performance (or not) vehicle.Despite this I am not saying or inferring that they all fail.
I was actually in a low volume sports car dealer yesterday and he advised he had changed four engines!
In my nearly 35yrs (OMG) motor trade experiance I cant of the top of my head remember a terminal engine weakness type issue such as this,even the nicasil issue was fuel (excess sulphur) related,not IMO bendy cranks failed bearings cracked bores,dchunks ect ect in fact 16 modes of repeated reportable documented trade acnowledged defects and weakness!
In reality cynicaly you could say cars for sale or sold on could have been so for a reason warping figures somewhat,I dont doubt many more owners are enjoying "keepers" ect than have suffered failure,the point Im trying to make is the ones for sale arent the whole picture for sure but there are many issues with these units of an unprecedented level of failure.The sad thing is really the lack of manufacturer based improvements and options with IMO people like Baz at the forefront re-engineering fixes for these issues ,it will be interesting in 5 or so years to see how much wated cooled stock is running its original engine or a Hartech or similar unit,also the longevity of the modified units will be tested and compared over the years ahead.
G
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