DMS Remap for 997 C2S
Discussion
I actually thought in terms of involvement it was fantastic. It lacks torque and steering feel compared to my 997 C2S and the general build quality and interior was noticeably worse as well. SMG was both fantastic and totally frustrating. The sound was immense and makes the 997 (without PSE) sound muted. A wonderful car and I actually owned 2 of them but the 997 C2S is another league. The addictive acceleration and sound from the CSL above 4000rpm was utterly addictive though.
anissut said:
Yes true the CSL engine is right on its limits, no doubt about that, hence remaps maybe not being worthwhile but it still doesn't explain why Porsche charge £8000 for 25bhp and DMS charge £750 for apparently the same gains.
For the same reason that Porsche charge £2,500 for a satnav system that Tomtom sell in Dixons for £200?
I had my 2006 997 C2s re mapped at viezu, I've been good mates with Jason at the Bromsgove branch for years and have had all my decent cars mapped by him. Their ad quoted 22bhp and 17lbs/ft of torque and improved throttle response. All I can say is the car seemed more eager and had a bit more top end at 5-6k revs. I pay £250 for all my maps at viezu and wider how DMS quote so high. Viezu would normally charge around £495
James996 said:
Just wondering if anyone had used DMS to remap a 997C2S
Thinking of getting it done next month and was wondering about the pros and cons - they claim it will go from 355 BHP and 295 lb/ft to 379 BHP and 319 lb/ft
Was also wondering what it lowers 0-60 times to if ayone knows?
They've quoted me £799inc vat and will come round to fit it at my place of work/home
Any info greatly appreciated
Thanks
James
Interesting. I wonder if you stick a sports exhaust on whether you get another 20 bhp on top of this? Have to say I've never found a C2S underpowered though. Fantastic mid rangeThinking of getting it done next month and was wondering about the pros and cons - they claim it will go from 355 BHP and 295 lb/ft to 379 BHP and 319 lb/ft
Was also wondering what it lowers 0-60 times to if ayone knows?
They've quoted me £799inc vat and will come round to fit it at my place of work/home
Any info greatly appreciated
Thanks
James
IMI A said:
James996 said:
Just wondering if anyone had used DMS to remap a 997C2S
Thinking of getting it done next month and was wondering about the pros and cons - they claim it will go from 355 BHP and 295 lb/ft to 379 BHP and 319 lb/ft
Was also wondering what it lowers 0-60 times to if ayone knows?
They've quoted me £799inc vat and will come round to fit it at my place of work/home
Any info greatly appreciated
Thanks
James
Interesting. I wonder if you stick a sports exhaust on whether you get another 20 bhp on top of this? Have to say I've never found a C2S underpowered though. Fantastic mid rangeThinking of getting it done next month and was wondering about the pros and cons - they claim it will go from 355 BHP and 295 lb/ft to 379 BHP and 319 lb/ft
Was also wondering what it lowers 0-60 times to if ayone knows?
They've quoted me £799inc vat and will come round to fit it at my place of work/home
Any info greatly appreciated
Thanks
James
Love your views from a 997 Turbo on 997 C2S and 996 Turbo
As well as the remap, Porsche added an extra radiator, reworked manifold headers, revised airbox and some other stuff:
- Cylinder heads with flow-optimized intake and exhaust ports
- Intake Manifold & Throttle Body - Increases inlet size from 76 mm to 82 mm
If I was going to track the car or, regularly rag it, it would not remap the car without the extra radiator, airbox/filter and manifold heads.
Gibbo runs a heavily modified Carrera, maybe he can chip in, I know there is a thread on here about his gains and experiences with changing the cats also.
- Cylinder heads with flow-optimized intake and exhaust ports
- Intake Manifold & Throttle Body - Increases inlet size from 76 mm to 82 mm
If I was going to track the car or, regularly rag it, it would not remap the car without the extra radiator, airbox/filter and manifold heads.
Gibbo runs a heavily modified Carrera, maybe he can chip in, I know there is a thread on here about his gains and experiences with changing the cats also.
Edited by Carl_Docklands on Tuesday 5th November 21:59
A few years ago, I went down the re-map route with my then 997S.1. This is a repost of the results:
I took the car to Wayne Schofield at Chip Wizards, who many on here will know as one of the best mappers in the business. My car at the time had a full exhaust (200-cells/extractors/silencers) and a BMC-F1 filter panel in the standard airbox. After a whole day of trying different ideas (based on known results Wayne had already achieved on previous 997S.1s - so we weren't starting from scratch) we were unable to achieve more then a 12 BHP gain plus a little more mid-range torque and a slight bump at 1500rpm or thereabouts. The reason, as Wayne had advised me before I went, is because there's simply no more to be gained from this engine by mapping alone.
All you can really do with a remap is optimise the fuelling and ignition timing at any given combination of load and rpm. However, you are very limited (quite correctly) in what you can do with timing. Add too much, anywhere, and the ECU will simply pull it back - across the whole rpm band - to prevent detonation. This means you end-up with a slower car. All we were able to do for my car before the knock control system started to intervene was to add about 2 degrees from 3500rpm upwards. There was also a point lower down in the band (1500-2000rpm, from memory) where more timing worked. This added approx. 7BHP to peak power together with commensurate mid range gains. The car was also running a little too rich at the top - correcting this made an additional +5 BHP. All this on V-Power 99-RON.
So much for what happens at full throttle. The work of the best tuners doesn't end here, it's where it starts. If you make changes to the full throttle timing and fuelling, you now have 'disconnects' with the part-throttle maps that can lead to very odd power delivery, surging as you back-off the throttle and other anomalies. The real skill of the tuner is to make sure there is still a linear, factory-smooth throttle response at all throttle openings from zero up to full. This involves a lot of changes to other maps. Very complex indeed and you only know it's been done properly if your remap is being done 'live'. Whether this has been properly addressed in 'generic' maps, nobody knows.
The simple truth is that the standard mapping on these engines is very well optimised if you run decent fuel. It's therefore very difficult indeed, very time-consuming and very costly to extract even the tiny improvement Wayne achieved from my car. To go further, you absolutely have to do other work to the engine. Anyone claiming +20/30/40 BHP from a remap alone is, at best, talking through their rear end!
Porsche's own factory power kit, for example, uses modified heads, exhaust manifolds, a completely different intake system, larger throttle body, dual-snorkel airbox with twin air filters AND a remap, just to achieve +26 BHP. This is indicative of how difficult it is to make meaningful gains from these engines without going for bigger capacity / larger valves / higher-lift, longer-duration cams etc. (or forced induction as an option).
So should you have a remap? In one sentence, don't bother! Minimum gain (you can't really feel the changes) maximum pain (to the wallet). Irreversible and always discoverable (unless you have access to some very sophisticated equipment) so normally no chance of a future warranty on the car. No possible warranty = car difficult, if not impossible to sell-on.
I took the car to Wayne Schofield at Chip Wizards, who many on here will know as one of the best mappers in the business. My car at the time had a full exhaust (200-cells/extractors/silencers) and a BMC-F1 filter panel in the standard airbox. After a whole day of trying different ideas (based on known results Wayne had already achieved on previous 997S.1s - so we weren't starting from scratch) we were unable to achieve more then a 12 BHP gain plus a little more mid-range torque and a slight bump at 1500rpm or thereabouts. The reason, as Wayne had advised me before I went, is because there's simply no more to be gained from this engine by mapping alone.
All you can really do with a remap is optimise the fuelling and ignition timing at any given combination of load and rpm. However, you are very limited (quite correctly) in what you can do with timing. Add too much, anywhere, and the ECU will simply pull it back - across the whole rpm band - to prevent detonation. This means you end-up with a slower car. All we were able to do for my car before the knock control system started to intervene was to add about 2 degrees from 3500rpm upwards. There was also a point lower down in the band (1500-2000rpm, from memory) where more timing worked. This added approx. 7BHP to peak power together with commensurate mid range gains. The car was also running a little too rich at the top - correcting this made an additional +5 BHP. All this on V-Power 99-RON.
So much for what happens at full throttle. The work of the best tuners doesn't end here, it's where it starts. If you make changes to the full throttle timing and fuelling, you now have 'disconnects' with the part-throttle maps that can lead to very odd power delivery, surging as you back-off the throttle and other anomalies. The real skill of the tuner is to make sure there is still a linear, factory-smooth throttle response at all throttle openings from zero up to full. This involves a lot of changes to other maps. Very complex indeed and you only know it's been done properly if your remap is being done 'live'. Whether this has been properly addressed in 'generic' maps, nobody knows.
The simple truth is that the standard mapping on these engines is very well optimised if you run decent fuel. It's therefore very difficult indeed, very time-consuming and very costly to extract even the tiny improvement Wayne achieved from my car. To go further, you absolutely have to do other work to the engine. Anyone claiming +20/30/40 BHP from a remap alone is, at best, talking through their rear end!
Porsche's own factory power kit, for example, uses modified heads, exhaust manifolds, a completely different intake system, larger throttle body, dual-snorkel airbox with twin air filters AND a remap, just to achieve +26 BHP. This is indicative of how difficult it is to make meaningful gains from these engines without going for bigger capacity / larger valves / higher-lift, longer-duration cams etc. (or forced induction as an option).
So should you have a remap? In one sentence, don't bother! Minimum gain (you can't really feel the changes) maximum pain (to the wallet). Irreversible and always discoverable (unless you have access to some very sophisticated equipment) so normally no chance of a future warranty on the car. No possible warranty = car difficult, if not impossible to sell-on.
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Sunday 3rd November 07:45
Hi there
In short I spent a lot of money tuning mine.
The best result comes from swapping out the cats to some high-flowing 200 cell units which copy the stock crossover straight pipe design. This lost nothing down low and gains were felt and recorded on dyno 3500rpm upwards. Easy to fit and not to expensive, may or might not throw a cel, adds a little volume too. Upto 20
For throttle response and intake noise, just do the silicon hose mod and cap of the sound resonator and fit a BMC filter, if your serious dremel out the resonator which I did for 25% for more airflow. This is very low cost!
These two mods will give you best sound and power upgrade and cost less than 1k.
For reliability fit a 3rd radiator, low temp stat and use thicker oil, help prevent scoring, along of course with shells finest vpower.
To eek out a little more and improve driveability ive also got CUP carbon plenum, same as stock design but big enough to accomodate GT3 throttlebody and correct size intake tube, this adds a bit of top-end and Ive got X51 manifolds for flow and to get the best from everything softronic remap.
The end result from all about is 375BHP peak and 310lb/ft, but the remap in isolation on a stock car seems to do very little, but with all the mods I have the softronic gets the most out of them. A custom map like Ian_UK suggest would yield more, but hardly worth the expensive outlay, Porsche did a good job on the map, just add the bolt-ons.
In short I spent a lot of money tuning mine.
The best result comes from swapping out the cats to some high-flowing 200 cell units which copy the stock crossover straight pipe design. This lost nothing down low and gains were felt and recorded on dyno 3500rpm upwards. Easy to fit and not to expensive, may or might not throw a cel, adds a little volume too. Upto 20
For throttle response and intake noise, just do the silicon hose mod and cap of the sound resonator and fit a BMC filter, if your serious dremel out the resonator which I did for 25% for more airflow. This is very low cost!
These two mods will give you best sound and power upgrade and cost less than 1k.
For reliability fit a 3rd radiator, low temp stat and use thicker oil, help prevent scoring, along of course with shells finest vpower.
To eek out a little more and improve driveability ive also got CUP carbon plenum, same as stock design but big enough to accomodate GT3 throttlebody and correct size intake tube, this adds a bit of top-end and Ive got X51 manifolds for flow and to get the best from everything softronic remap.
The end result from all about is 375BHP peak and 310lb/ft, but the remap in isolation on a stock car seems to do very little, but with all the mods I have the softronic gets the most out of them. A custom map like Ian_UK suggest would yield more, but hardly worth the expensive outlay, Porsche did a good job on the map, just add the bolt-ons.
+1, on an Atmo engine you won't gain much at all, not worth the cost, maybe +10bhp if you think that's value go right ahead.., or put 500 notes in a bucket and set fire to it.. !
The factory X51 engine was an £8000 option to go from 355bhp to 381bhp, and that aint just a map.
The factory X51 engine was an £8000 option to go from 355bhp to 381bhp, and that aint just a map.
Edited by RatBoy M3CSL on Tuesday 5th November 22:23
Gibbo205 said:
....... The best result comes from swapping out the cats to some high-flowing 200 cell units which copy the stock crossover straight pipe design. This lost nothing down low and gains were felt and recorded on dyno 3500rpm upwards........
Absolutely this ^^^^^The cats were the only mod I ever made to my 997S.1 that made a difference I could feel - a definite hike in torque in the mid range that is maintained to the red line.
The BMC-F1 filter panel was the other surprise - the difference in immediacy and throttle response was crazy for the price of the part. This mod only gives a tiny increase in measurable power/torque, but the difference in feel is immense.
To the OP - If you do go for 200-cell cats, please bear in mid that a lot of the silencing afforded by the factory cats disappears. Unfortunately, the standard Porsche silencers don't work well with that silencing removed - there can be some fairly unpleasant-sounding resonance effects. The most satisfactory solution for power/torque and sound is to go for a matched set of aftermarket 200-cells/silencers together with the X-51 manifolds.
Edited by Ian_UK1 on Wednesday 6th November 15:10
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