964RS....the return of the PIG ?
Discussion
I'm not a dealer (well I am but not in this field, I sell classics, the only newish Porkers I sell are my own) If this is "The car" and it is a big if (although not anymore) then the car is simply bent. No debate about that it is bent. It needs to get it right:
Rear wings removing.
Front wings removing.
Doors and bonnet removing.
Car checking seriously for alignment, and then the panels refitting properly.
That might sound easy but I assure you it isn't, even if it was only the front end panels to be realigned it is a big and skilled job, the rear wings are a massive job they are welded on. This all assumes when you strip it down you don't discover the multitude of horrors I'd expect to find. Because you do not end up with panel gaps of those kind, and especially the rear wing issues if the wings were properly replaced, it suggests that the rear wings were pulled out after the smash and liberal amounts of filler used.
Couple that to the oil leaks, and the grotty mag wheels that needed major remedial work, and to get the car right is not a simple job. And that is why it isn't worth 35k. Now if this is news to the seller I feel for him, he bought it from people who are sharp to be kind, but I suspect he has discovered it and is trying to move it on, sadly the car is not value for money, and 35k would buy you a better LHD rs, maybe would need hunting for, but would be hard to find a poorer example, personally I prefer buying smashed cars to badly repaired smashed cars, at least you can see the issues.
No way will tech 9 have done that bodywork by the way, and if they did take it back.
This isn't an attempt at character assassination by the way, I have nothing to win from that, but that 18k offer was a fair one, and it was more than mine, doesn't matter whether your pitching it as a track car/rough and ready car, it is too much money. Money would be better spent RSing a C2.
Rear wings removing.
Front wings removing.
Doors and bonnet removing.
Car checking seriously for alignment, and then the panels refitting properly.
That might sound easy but I assure you it isn't, even if it was only the front end panels to be realigned it is a big and skilled job, the rear wings are a massive job they are welded on. This all assumes when you strip it down you don't discover the multitude of horrors I'd expect to find. Because you do not end up with panel gaps of those kind, and especially the rear wing issues if the wings were properly replaced, it suggests that the rear wings were pulled out after the smash and liberal amounts of filler used.
Couple that to the oil leaks, and the grotty mag wheels that needed major remedial work, and to get the car right is not a simple job. And that is why it isn't worth 35k. Now if this is news to the seller I feel for him, he bought it from people who are sharp to be kind, but I suspect he has discovered it and is trying to move it on, sadly the car is not value for money, and 35k would buy you a better LHD rs, maybe would need hunting for, but would be hard to find a poorer example, personally I prefer buying smashed cars to badly repaired smashed cars, at least you can see the issues.
No way will tech 9 have done that bodywork by the way, and if they did take it back.
This isn't an attempt at character assassination by the way, I have nothing to win from that, but that 18k offer was a fair one, and it was more than mine, doesn't matter whether your pitching it as a track car/rough and ready car, it is too much money. Money would be better spent RSing a C2.
well done that man....was wating for you to see this thread wild-one !!
wildoliver said:
I'm not a dealer (well I am but not in this field, I sell classics, the only newish Porkers I sell are my own) If this is "The car" and it is a big if (although not anymore) then the car is simply bent. No debate about that it is bent. It needs to get it right:
Rear wings removing.
Front wings removing.
Doors and bonnet removing.
Car checking seriously for alignment, and then the panels refitting properly.
That might sound easy but I assure you it isn't, even if it was only the front end panels to be realigned it is a big and skilled job, the rear wings are a massive job they are welded on. This all assumes when you strip it down you don't discover the multitude of horrors I'd expect to find. Because you do not end up with panel gaps of those kind, and especially the rear wing issues if the wings were properly replaced, it suggests that the rear wings were pulled out after the smash and liberal amounts of filler used.
Couple that to the oil leaks, and the grotty mag wheels that needed major remedial work, and to get the car right is not a simple job. And that is why it isn't worth 35k. Now if this is news to the seller I feel for him, he bought it from people who are sharp to be kind, but I suspect he has discovered it and is trying to move it on, sadly the car is not value for money, and 35k would buy you a better LHD rs, maybe would need hunting for, but would be hard to find a poorer example, personally I prefer buying smashed cars to badly repaired smashed cars, at least you can see the issues.
No way will tech 9 have done that bodywork by the way, and if they did take it back.
This isn't an attempt at character assassination by the way, I have nothing to win from that, but that 18k offer was a fair one, and it was more than mine, doesn't matter whether your pitching it as a track car/rough and ready car, it is too much money. Money would be better spent RSing a C2.
Rear wings removing.
Front wings removing.
Doors and bonnet removing.
Car checking seriously for alignment, and then the panels refitting properly.
That might sound easy but I assure you it isn't, even if it was only the front end panels to be realigned it is a big and skilled job, the rear wings are a massive job they are welded on. This all assumes when you strip it down you don't discover the multitude of horrors I'd expect to find. Because you do not end up with panel gaps of those kind, and especially the rear wing issues if the wings were properly replaced, it suggests that the rear wings were pulled out after the smash and liberal amounts of filler used.
Couple that to the oil leaks, and the grotty mag wheels that needed major remedial work, and to get the car right is not a simple job. And that is why it isn't worth 35k. Now if this is news to the seller I feel for him, he bought it from people who are sharp to be kind, but I suspect he has discovered it and is trying to move it on, sadly the car is not value for money, and 35k would buy you a better LHD rs, maybe would need hunting for, but would be hard to find a poorer example, personally I prefer buying smashed cars to badly repaired smashed cars, at least you can see the issues.
No way will tech 9 have done that bodywork by the way, and if they did take it back.
This isn't an attempt at character assassination by the way, I have nothing to win from that, but that 18k offer was a fair one, and it was more than mine, doesn't matter whether your pitching it as a track car/rough and ready car, it is too much money. Money would be better spent RSing a C2.
Putting good bodged accident repairs is very difficult because you do not know how the car was deamaged in the first instance so it can become a bit of a mystery tour. Let's say someone has a 964RS that needs jigging, the quarter panels replacing properly, a boot floor perhaps and then a full respray the work would come to around £15k+VAT (300 hours) plus parts. We are currently doing a similar repair on a track damaged 964RS and have estimated £25k with wing, quarter, bumpers and spoilers to bring it back to fresh. Provided we were authorised to do whatever necessary, we would also guarantee that the repair would exceed factory standards and that no-one would be able to see where the car was repaired after it had been done. I just thought that this would be a useful reference point for anyone considering buying a repaired car that they want to have put back to perfect condition (which would then be better than 95% of the RS's in circulation).
Hurray for sambaman and wildoliver from me. I don't understand why vested interest groups would deem the first-hand assessment of two guys that know their stuff as being assassination in this instance. You're looking at this the wrong way. If I'm selling a sh!tter and get called on it, then are the rules of this forum that I'm the victim? It's not the seller they're after, it's the buyers they're tring to alert as I see it. This seller isn't, from my perspective, getting bashed for the sake of it. Moreover, it seems that a couple of helpful PH community minded guys with no interest in buying the car have helped any here with an interest to avoid making a costly mistake. At least having read this, any prospective buyer is going to view this thing with his eyes open.
What's the problem? Really? With an overheated 964RS market at the minute, who apart from the seller of a sub-standard car, is going to suffer from the critical input of a couple of resident experts? I understand the notion that careless and senseless bashing of a car that doesn't deserve it is grossly unfair, but no more unfair than advertising something in a somewhat misleading way that could easily catch out the unwary or inexperienced. He didn't say much in his advert, hasn't been in much of a rush to respond to emails, has already said he's had a ton of interest and has put his price up 5 grand on the back of it. He's playing his game, that he should meet with a bit of resistance is fine by me.
If the car is straight and has been rectified, the seller has had ample chance to get back to us. If he can get 35k for it, then well wear to him. I'm glad to have been put straight on the car's history here. Too much s
gging off ropey cars? Not enough of it in my opinion. The best cars get huge money, and there are more than enough people out there riding on the back of this trying to get big money for sub-standard gear. I'm glad to have a bit of help seperating the wheat from the chaff.
What's the problem? Really? With an overheated 964RS market at the minute, who apart from the seller of a sub-standard car, is going to suffer from the critical input of a couple of resident experts? I understand the notion that careless and senseless bashing of a car that doesn't deserve it is grossly unfair, but no more unfair than advertising something in a somewhat misleading way that could easily catch out the unwary or inexperienced. He didn't say much in his advert, hasn't been in much of a rush to respond to emails, has already said he's had a ton of interest and has put his price up 5 grand on the back of it. He's playing his game, that he should meet with a bit of resistance is fine by me.
If the car is straight and has been rectified, the seller has had ample chance to get back to us. If he can get 35k for it, then well wear to him. I'm glad to have been put straight on the car's history here. Too much s
gging off ropey cars? Not enough of it in my opinion. The best cars get huge money, and there are more than enough people out there riding on the back of this trying to get big money for sub-standard gear. I'm glad to have a bit of help seperating the wheat from the chaff. Edited by Loach on Tuesday 19th February 15:06
NineMeister said:
Putting good bodged accident repairs is very difficult because you do not know how the car was deamaged in the first instance so it can become a bit of a mystery tour. Let's say someone has a 964RS that needs jigging, the quarter panels replacing properly, a boot floor perhaps and then a full respray the work would come to around £15k+VAT (300 hours) plus parts. We are currently doing a similar repair on a track damaged 964RS and have estimated £25k with wing, quarter, bumpers and spoilers to bring it back to fresh. Provided we were authorised to do whatever necessary, we would also guarantee that the repair would exceed factory standards and that no-one would be able to see where the car was repaired after it had been done. I just thought that this would be a useful reference point for anyone considering buying a repaired car that they want to have put back to perfect condition (which would then be better than 95% of the RS's in circulation).
Again - brilliantly helpful. At 25k to get it right (if that includes the VAT Col 
) this car would be worth around 20k to me. Right? Mind you, with the ninemeister menu, I'd probably end up with a bill closer to 40k from yer man Belton and his team. There were oil leaks discussed, so that'd be the engine upgraded whilst it was out of the car etc etc Actually Loach, I think that a car damaged in the way I described would be worth a little more, perhaps £25k. If you then spent £8k on an engine rebuild & minor mechanicals, £1k to refurbish the Mags properly, £25k on the bodywork and perhaps £5k on a carpet set and minor retrim you would have a pretty much perfect RS that is 100% sorted. If you compare this with a so called "museum piece" for £75k that has "never been tracked, never had paint, one careful owner, etc." I know where I would spend my money.
That said, there has to be a contingency fund available for any damaged car purchase just in case you find more stuff to do/repair than anticipated and I recommend a minimum of 10% of the budget, so perhaps your £20k estimate is in the right ballpark afterall?
That said, there has to be a contingency fund available for any damaged car purchase just in case you find more stuff to do/repair than anticipated and I recommend a minimum of 10% of the budget, so perhaps your £20k estimate is in the right ballpark afterall?
wildoliver said:
I'm not a dealer (well I am but not in this field, I sell classics, the only newish Porkers I sell are my own) If this is "The car" and it is a big if (although not anymore) then the car is simply bent. No debate about that it is bent. It needs to get it right:
Rear wings removing.
Front wings removing.
Doors and bonnet removing.
Car checking seriously for alignment, and then the panels refitting properly.
That might sound easy but I assure you it isn't, even if it was only the front end panels to be realigned it is a big and skilled job, the rear wings are a massive job they are welded on. This all assumes when you strip it down you don't discover the multitude of horrors I'd expect to find. Because you do not end up with panel gaps of those kind, and especially the rear wing issues if the wings were properly replaced, it suggests that the rear wings were pulled out after the smash and liberal amounts of filler used.
Couple that to the oil leaks, and the grotty mag wheels that needed major remedial work, and to get the car right is not a simple job. And that is why it isn't worth 35k. Now if this is news to the seller I feel for him, he bought it from people who are sharp to be kind, but I suspect he has discovered it and is trying to move it on, sadly the car is not value for money, and 35k would buy you a better LHD rs, maybe would need hunting for, but would be hard to find a poorer example, personally I prefer buying smashed cars to badly repaired smashed cars, at least you can see the issues.
No way will tech 9 have done that bodywork by the way, and if they did take it back.
This isn't an attempt at character assassination by the way, I have nothing to win from that, but that 18k offer was a fair one, and it was more than mine, doesn't matter whether your pitching it as a track car/rough and ready car, it is too much money. Money would be better spent RSing a C2.
Email I got said:Rear wings removing.
Front wings removing.
Doors and bonnet removing.
Car checking seriously for alignment, and then the panels refitting properly.
That might sound easy but I assure you it isn't, even if it was only the front end panels to be realigned it is a big and skilled job, the rear wings are a massive job they are welded on. This all assumes when you strip it down you don't discover the multitude of horrors I'd expect to find. Because you do not end up with panel gaps of those kind, and especially the rear wing issues if the wings were properly replaced, it suggests that the rear wings were pulled out after the smash and liberal amounts of filler used.
Couple that to the oil leaks, and the grotty mag wheels that needed major remedial work, and to get the car right is not a simple job. And that is why it isn't worth 35k. Now if this is news to the seller I feel for him, he bought it from people who are sharp to be kind, but I suspect he has discovered it and is trying to move it on, sadly the car is not value for money, and 35k would buy you a better LHD rs, maybe would need hunting for, but would be hard to find a poorer example, personally I prefer buying smashed cars to badly repaired smashed cars, at least you can see the issues.
No way will tech 9 have done that bodywork by the way, and if they did take it back.
This isn't an attempt at character assassination by the way, I have nothing to win from that, but that 18k offer was a fair one, and it was more than mine, doesn't matter whether your pitching it as a track car/rough and ready car, it is too much money. Money would be better spent RSing a C2.
"needs bumpers painting and rubber sill gaskets, mag wheels need paint job but they are not damaged plus a machine polish."
I agree forums are not best place for discussing other peoples cars for sale all the time but they do act as a useful resource for people. Sometimes this can work in a sellers favour when they have a good car to sell...not so if the other way around - maybe PM is a much better way to communicate rather than open forum and maybe better ettiquette. Sometimes good cars do get slated totally unjustifiedly though and thats just wrong.
I'm considering 'possibly' selling my RS when my RSR arrives. Will I sell it here...probably not...there will be a lot of people who have an opinion on it based on never ever having seen it...but then again even though its had 40k spent on it in last 5000km (find me another that has!) some people wouldn't know if it was good, bad or ugly when they actually saw it either, but they'd still have an 'opinion'.
NineMeister said:
Putting good bodged accident repairs is very difficult because you do not know how the car was deamaged in the first instance so it can become a bit of a mystery tour. Let's say someone has a 964RS that needs jigging, the quarter panels replacing properly, a boot floor perhaps and then a full respray the work would come to around £15k+VAT (300 hours) plus parts. We are currently doing a similar repair on a track damaged 964RS and have estimated £25k with wing, quarter, bumpers and spoilers to bring it back to fresh. Provided we were authorised to do whatever necessary, we would also guarantee that the repair would exceed factory standards and that no-one would be able to see where the car was repaired after it had been done. I just thought that this would be a useful reference point for anyone considering buying a repaired car that they want to have put back to perfect condition (which would then be better than 95% of the RS's in circulation).
ExactlyMine was over 30k colin and as you say for exact same reason...we believe it exceeds factory standards and I'll be gob smacked if 5% of the RS in circulation are better than it. Thats the biggest problem with ever selling it....not sure I'd ever find a better one...maybe one of your reps from scratch is about as close as you'd get to 'new'
964RS said:
I'm considering 'possibly' selling my RS when my RSR arrives. Will I sell it here...probably not...there will be a lot of people who have an opinion on it based on never ever having seen it...but then again even though its had 40k spent on it in last 5000km (find me another that has!) some people wouldn't know if it was good, bad or ugly when they actually saw it either, but they'd still have an 'opinion'.
But you've been totally up front about your car. Most of us know about the knock it took 'cos you told us and we comiserated. Most of us witnessed what appeared to be a brilliant job getting it back on the road, again, because you share it with us. You don't appear to be short of a bean, you obviously love your car(s), and I'll bet that the repair job was to the highest standard possible. I've an opinion about your car - that it's probably a cracker. Absolutely agree, nothing wrong with knocked cars, provided they are sorted properly or at least advertised honestly, the classic being this car at the original garage, I have never come across anyone lie so blatently it was not bent, then when you point out there are pictures, and the panels are all over he just sort of shrugs. It was the shrug of "oh well plenty more mugs out there".
It's cars and dealers like this that get my goat, Henry gets some stick on here as a dealer but you don't find him trying to pass stuff like this off.
And yes I would buy it if it were the right price, I don't have an issue with the car I buy lots of knocked stuff, I do have an issue with the price and smoothing over of issues.
It's cars and dealers like this that get my goat, Henry gets some stick on here as a dealer but you don't find him trying to pass stuff like this off.
And yes I would buy it if it were the right price, I don't have an issue with the car I buy lots of knocked stuff, I do have an issue with the price and smoothing over of issues.
sambaman said:
i made that same offer over a year ago...mind your own business if yah dont like it mr clubsport
In it for the business ... clubsport said:
I feel bad for the seller, he advertised the car at a fair price awaiting enquiry and inspection, as for a trader assasinating a car on a public forum and then proceeding to make an offer, it beggars belief 
Hopefully someone will buy the car and continue to enjoy it on track.
Hopefully someone will buy the car and continue to enjoy it on track.
melv said:
"Money would be better spent RSing a C2."
Never!!!
You have to think who a cheap rs appeals to, it appeals to someone on the bottom rungs of the ladder of top end porsche ownership, probably someone who stretches to get in to it, I ask, what is better, a c2 bought for 15k with good service history, straight shell, good condition, that you then spend 15k on to freshen engine, rs suspension, wheels of choice, strip and cage interior. And end up with a reliable track ready c2. Or to buy a tired old rs that has been intimate with armco?Never!!!
I know which I would prefer! Although admittedly the c2 would never make your money back.
stop talking out your little rectum chris !
ChrisW. said:
sambaman said:
i made that same offer over a year ago...mind your own business if yah dont like it mr clubsport
In it for the business ... clubsport said:
I feel bad for the seller, he advertised the car at a fair price awaiting enquiry and inspection, as for a trader assasinating a car on a public forum and then proceeding to make an offer, it beggars belief
Hopefully someone will buy the car and continue to enjoy it on track.
Hopefully someone will buy the car and continue to enjoy it on track.
Ruane, I do feel sorry for you (assuming your not another dealer trying to pull a fast one), you've advertised your car on here and it has systematically been ripped asunder. However I don't think anyone on here has an ulterior motive, it is purely we don't want a fellow enthusiast getting caught with a badun.
Your car is still an rs, but in many ways that makes the situation worse, if it were a standard c2 you could sell it cheap (say 10k instead of 15k) and someone would buy it. But with rare cars such as this people want them to be right, if I were to sell an MGA twincam or an MGC both rare small volume cars that there aren't many left now, it would have to be right, because bad paintjobs, lack of originality, bad panel gaps, non matching numbers, bad "history" all these points have major issues with resale price on rare cars. And you get to this point where you look at a rare car and come to the realisation that to do it properly needs almost a full restoration, at that point whether the car is running and on the road or not it is still a restoration car.
Your car does have value, but as with buying an accident damaged car it has to be worked out on the value of a good condition similar age and mileage car, less the cost of repairing properly, and it has to be properly. As well as any further recon costs needed. Now you've had a few quotes on here from people who have seen the car and know how much it costs. The number you end up with isn't 30-35k I'm afraid. Even for it to be sold as a purely track car you won't be looking anywhere near that price, and thats assuming all the brakes and suspension are top notch.
Your car is still an rs, but in many ways that makes the situation worse, if it were a standard c2 you could sell it cheap (say 10k instead of 15k) and someone would buy it. But with rare cars such as this people want them to be right, if I were to sell an MGA twincam or an MGC both rare small volume cars that there aren't many left now, it would have to be right, because bad paintjobs, lack of originality, bad panel gaps, non matching numbers, bad "history" all these points have major issues with resale price on rare cars. And you get to this point where you look at a rare car and come to the realisation that to do it properly needs almost a full restoration, at that point whether the car is running and on the road or not it is still a restoration car.
Your car does have value, but as with buying an accident damaged car it has to be worked out on the value of a good condition similar age and mileage car, less the cost of repairing properly, and it has to be properly. As well as any further recon costs needed. Now you've had a few quotes on here from people who have seen the car and know how much it costs. The number you end up with isn't 30-35k I'm afraid. Even for it to be sold as a purely track car you won't be looking anywhere near that price, and thats assuming all the brakes and suspension are top notch.
Trouble is, there probably ain't no such thing as a naive RS buyer - you'll only want one if you've got a fairly sophisticated knowledge. So will need to be realistically priced if it's going to sell - and sounds like will need some investment from a potential buyer to bring it up to scratch. Having read all of this the advice from the dealers doesn't sound too far off on value - but with the history of the market over the last couple years who knows what you might get with the wind in the right direction. You might get someone who's desperate to get into an RS and doesn't think ahead about maintainance and resale.
Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff