Finally: Some facts on the GT-R's Ring time

[gp900bj]

Guibo said:

"Yesterday another former Rallye champion (who holds the fastest lap on the Ring in the wet - so no rookie either) managed to get near 07:50 in not fully ideal conditions using a stock customer car from overseas."
"...Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49)"

Hmmm...is this not apples vs oranges? Suzuki is on record as saying "conditions were perfect." And here we have "not fully ideal conditions." "Some passing manuevers" would be how many? 2? 7? 10? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the vids Nissan released clearly showed zero passing manuevers; ie. closed track session. Can't claim to be an expert on the 'Ring, but if there's a fault in Suzuki's line, I couldn't see it. Suzuki said it was an optimum lap, that the car couldn't go any faster, so I reckon there were no mistakes in his lines.


I wonder if any cheating is going on here:

7:50 BMW E46 M3 CSL (sport auto); 253 hp/tonne
7:59 Corvette C6 (GM); 271 hp/tone
8:13 Dodge Viper SRT-10 (sport auto); 319 hp/tonne (+23% compared to CSL)

7:22.9 Loaded M3 CSL; 373 hp/tonne
7:24.29 Maserati MC12 (Evo); 394 hp/tonne
7:33.55 Koenigsegg CCX (Evo); 612 hp/tonne (+64% compared to Loaded CSL, +55% compared to MC12)

Just curious Guibo, do you know what conditions this time was conducted under? He says
"passing manouvers": Is this a tourist day (open to public) or a private event during which the entire track was hired out?

[Guibo]

gp900bj said:

Just curious Guibo, do you know what conditions this time was conducted under? He says
"passing manouvers": Is this a tourist day (open to public) or a private event during which the entire track was hired out?

Sorry, haven't got a clue. Would be interesting to know what kinds of vehicles were being passed...

[christer]

Apologies if this has been discussed:

Do you think Nissan are making any good margin on the GT-R? I mean it *is* bloody cheap for what it is.....or are they happy to break even....?

[DanH]

I have now received official confirmation as to how the GTR lap times were set. Weather was clement, very little traffic on circuit and the PS3 and Sony HD tv were indeed propped up on a fresh set of road tyres.

[Ultra Violent]

What would be interesting, is, if you could turn off ALL electronic driver aids and see what contribution technology has to the times.

And for the record I couldn't give a toss about anyone's claims, but it will be fun when the truth comes out.

[forza whites]

Streetrod said:

shoestring7 said:

Streetrod said:

paul_k said:

. Corvette Z06

Cd = 0.34
Frontal Area = 22.3 sqft
CdA = 7.58 sqft

Ferrari 430

Cd = 0.34
Frontal Area = 21.53 sqft
CdA = 7.32 sqft

911 Turbo (2006)

Cd = 0.31
Frontal Area = 21.96 sqft
CdA = 6.81 sqft

Nissan GT-R

Cd = 0.27
Frontal Area = 22.5 sqft
CdA = 6.07 sqft

Thanks Paul for those figures, I have also had those numbers confirmed as being correct. The problem most people have is they look at a car and make an instant assumptions as to how aerodynamic a car is and too a layman a Porsche does look more aero, but as you have shown this is not always the case.

So if the GT-R has the 550bhp that the RR test suggest, and has a CDA 30% less than a C06, why doesn't it do about 220mph?

SS7

Gearing!!!!

I personally do not beleive with ANY gearing the 'shape' of the GTR will push it to those speeds...

[noumenon]

Trommel said:

Housey said:

though it’s still a Datsun driven by people on council estates and the Porsche is driven by city boys with big hair. So glad I have an RS4, its goes so well with my Breitling and Bluetooth headset now MOVE OUT OF MY WAY!!!

Was it Clarkson who was talking about how he could never have an RS4 as all the chavs driving M3s had moved to them?

[Dr S]

gp900bj said:

Horst von Saurma's abysmal 7:54 in the 997 911 turbo is proof of this.

Yes HvS's 997TT time was very weak. Well, he also did 07:50 in a 997S MkII with DSG. HvS is definitively not up with the best drivers on the Ring and he is unlikely to set the best time of any car. However, his times allow relative comparisons between cars as the driver is always the same (with variances in performance between days, of course).

Re your question: Wolfgang used a stock customer car on stock tyres.

You still struggle to explain how Suzuki can find 15 seconds over other professional racers who know the Ring much better than him (beyond ramblings on having been born with the car). One of the features of the GT-R is that it is fairly easy to drive at the limit. A 997TT is much more tricky by comparison with the way power is often unpredictably shifted between wheels.

Have you read Steve Rance's post on this thread?

Anyway, your point that is that Suzuki is the magic driver who can do things with the GT-R no one else can do. My point is that in the hands of highly experienced professional racers who know the track inside out the standard car does perform far below Nissan's claims. The positions are clear and it's time to call it a day on this thread.

[peterpeter]

Dr S said:

gp900bj said:

Horst von Saurma's abysmal 7:54 in the 997 911 turbo is proof of this.

Yes HvS's 997TT time was very weak. Well, he also did 07:50 in a 997S MkII with DSG. HvS is definitively not up with the best drivers on the Ring and he is unlikely to set the best time of any car. However, his times allow relative comparisons between cars as the driver is always the same (with variances in performance between days, of course).

Re your question: Wolfgang used a stock customer car on stock tyres.

You still struggle to explain how Suzuki can find 15 seconds over other professional racers who know the Ring much better than him (beyond ramblings on having been born with the car). One of the features of the GT-R is that it is fairly easy to drive at the limit. A 997TT is much more tricky by comparison with the way power is often unpredictably shifted between wheels.

Have you read Steve Rance's post on this thread?

Anyway, your point that is that Suzuki is the magic driver who can do things with the GT-R no one else can do. My point is that in the hands of highly experienced professional racers who know the track inside out the standard car does perform far below Nissan's claims. The positions are clear and it's time to call it a day on this thread.

Interesting that the 997Smk2 with DSG did a 7.50.

Drivers republic took the 997 pdk around silverstone national and did a 2.15

In the GTR they posted a 2.10....a whole 5 seconds quicker than a car that beat the GTR in a straight line race.

bearing in mind the ring is about 4 times longer than silverstone national, that would add up to 20 seconds or so differential at the ring assuming it was scientific to extrapolate those figures (which may or may not be) TBH for me ,the silverstone time is far more relevant.( The GTR was pretty much on a par with the 997 gt2 they tested a couple of weeks later). ..because it is far less weather and traffic dependant, and far easier to reproduce and if the car is 5 seconds faster than a pdk 997 and nearly as fast as a GT2, its impressive enough.

[Guibo]

Dr S said:

Re your question: Wolfgang used a stock customer car on stock tyres.

HvS is definitively not up with the best drivers on the Ring and he is unlikely to set the best time of any car.

The GT-R is available with 3 different tires, any of which would be considered stock. Which ones did both Porsche (with Rohrl) and Wolfgang use?

And yet he posted a lap 12 seconds faster in the 599 than Porsche's best driver.

Edited by Guibo on Wednesday 12th November 10:40

[peterpeter]

hang on a second....which tyres was wolfgang on?
Because there are two types of stock tyres. The dunlops on which the ring time was set..they are a GTR version of the MPSC tyre or the Bridgestone re070s
The dunlops are meant to be 3/4 seconds a lap quicker round most 2 minutes circuits.

[Guibo]

peterpeter said:

Interesting that the 997Smk2 with DSG did a 7.50.
Drivers republic took the 997 pdk around silverstone national and did a 2.15
In the GTR they posted a 2.10....a whole 5 seconds quicker than a car that beat the GTR in a straight line race.

Here's something from the Drivers Republic NRing community:

"The GT-R we drove at Silverstone was on Bridgestones and the GT2 on Pilot Cups and there was 1/10th of a second between them (in the GT2's favour). I remember the 911 being great fun but a real challenge, the GT-R an incredible experience but easier to extract the time from. I wouldn't have felt comfortable taking the same risks in the GT2 at the Ring, simply because you know it'll bite you if you really take the *%&%. Therefore if we can take anything from the whole Ring argument I'd say that whatever the GT-R and GT2's ultimate times are, a mere mortal would be able to get closer to the GT-R's best, which perhaps means more than a few seconds here and there.
As Chris has said in his column the Ring lap times are always open to conjecture, and while you could argue all day about whether the GT-R or GT2 is quicker it seems hard to believe the Nissan would be THAT much slower."
--Richard Meaden

Chris Harris and Jethro Bovingdon also agree that Porsche's numbers (the initial 7:54 one and not the one that is now curiously 9 seconds lower) don't make much sense.

"If anything, the GT-R we used at Silverstone felt a bit tired, it certainly wasn't as quick in a straight line as the one we used for the road work."
--Chris Harris

Porsche also boasts that the 997 w/PDK is 8 seconds faster at the 'Ring than the revised 997 w/o PDK. The power between them is the same, but Porsche lists the PDK-equipped car as weighing 30kg more. So, a slightly worse hp/wt ratio, yet 8 seconds lopped off the 'Ring time...curiously, no remarks about "physics" and Santa Claus. Double standard?

[Housey]

noumenon said:

Trommel said:

Housey said:

though it’s still a Datsun driven by people on council estates and the Porsche is driven by city boys with big hair. So glad I have an RS4, its goes so well with my Breitling and Bluetooth headset now MOVE OUT OF MY WAY!!!

Was it Clarkson who was talking about how he could never have an RS4 as all the chavs driving M3s had moved to them?

[Steve Rance]

Ultimate pace is certainly a factor but ultimately the sheer mass of the GTR will work against it on the circuit. It will eat tyres and brakes on the race track like you wouldnt believe and not be capable of lapping consitantly anywhere near it's ultimate pace in a track session of say half an hour as a result. I think anybody buying one as a track car would be dissapointed for this reason. On the road however I think that it will be different story

[eclou]

Guibo said:

Steve Millen's GT-R time at Willow Springs (on Dunlops) was not that much faster than a customer GT-R driven by pro driver Sam Hubinette with only 700 miles on it, shod with the Bridgestones. Take a look at how he did in the GT3 here:

Sam is shown drifting thru each corner of the video in the 997GT3. He might as well be applying the handbrake to throw the test, as he is essentially braking out of each corner instead of accelerating with grip. This is a great rallye technique but useless for setting laps on a road course. To give you some more data points at Willow Springs from non-pro drivers: a 996GT3 can lap at 1:28, a Cup car will do about 1:24, a Spec Boxster (201hp) can do repeated 1:34, and there is even a youtube video of a 1989 Honda Civic with 110hp and 145k miles on it doing 3 laps at 1:37. How can this pro driver turn a mere 1 second faster a lap than a 1989 Civic?

Guibo said:

Anyone know what tires Porsche were using on the GT-R? How about tires for Webber's testing? Open or closed track? I'm also wondering what took the "guesthouse observer" so long to come out with this information. It's been many, many months since Nissan released the time. Was there an issue of whether a time undercutting Porsche's initial claim of 7:54 by 9 seconds might reduce the impact of the claim, and leave Nissan with a reasonable doubt given test and weather conditions?

We have seen durometer testing on the Bridgestones here showing they are roughly equivalent to a Toyo R888 or Michelin Cup in compound softness. In the US the tires are lasting 5k miles or so. The Dunlops are even softer, but I have not seen a durometer test yet.

Edited by eclou on Wednesday 12th November 13:45

[eclou]

gp900bj said:

Thanks for highlighting the many hazards of magazine racing eclou. 20 seconds you say? Would that have anything to do with the all day downpour during both #1 and #2 sessions? That is your home track isn't it?

Considering the GT-R was the ONLY car in the field sporting run-flat tires it's still pretty impressive that the car came 11th outright in it's first ever OLAP, despite an autocross DNF and a launch control bungle.

The One Lap GTR showing was actually closer to 30 seconds slower than good Spec Miata lap, 35 seconds slower than a good GT3 lap, 45 seconds slower than a Cup car lap . It shows that the magazine results can go both ways. The writers are typically mediocre drivers at best, and to make detailed assumptions of car performances based on their eloquent write-ups of a car's roadcourse abilities (when navigated by a hobbit) may not be a good idea. However the OLAP test revealed some other interesting things: despite having a Nissan engineer following it, the GTR managed only a 12.8s 1/4 mile; the AWD "ATTESSA" GTR was handily bested in wet weather by an ogrish RWD Viper without any electronic Playstation gadgetry; the "run-flat tires" (I have addressed having a softness on par with most R-compound tires when durometer tested and in lifespan as well) hydroplane worse than regular street tires, and more in line with a race compound tire.

As far as real world laps at TWS, the best I have seen at TWS is a 1:58.4 by a driving instructor (self-reportedly the best one at the track) whereas the best 997Gt3 lap is 1:52. That particular GTR driver is now reluctant to track anymore since the transmission longevity is in question.

[Trommel]

Ask peterpeter on here about the corner speeds and lap times on Silverstone National in a GT-R compared to his GT3.

Edited by Trommel on Wednesday 12th November 14:34

[timmo]

Guys,

Just back from a 2 day RMA trackday at the ring and was driven around in the Japanese Nissan GTR with Lambo style doors by Wolfgang Weber

the car had KW 3 way suspension but with all the electronic diffs still attached

he said he did a 7:45 last week and is still developing the car !!!

I have met him before at the Sachenring and have no reason to doubt his time

BTW - the car only does 2 and half laps of the ring before it needs refuelling ( hence why it does not race there )


tim

[noumenon]

Dr S said:

One of the features of the GT-R is that it is fairly easy to drive at the limit. A 997TT is much more tricky by comparison with the way power is often unpredictably shifted between wheels.

Everyone seems pretty much in agreement on that. Isn't that another reason the GT-R is better? How fast would the TT be if they put the engine in the right place?

[Trommel]

timmo said:

with Lambo style doors

Got to be worth 5 seconds a lap alone.