Finally: Some facts on the GT-R's Ring time
Discussion
Honestly, who cares? I really don't think the best blimmin' time around the ring is relevant to me or you. Not even if we did drive around the place every day which we fortunately don't.
It's supposed to be about how much of an occasion it is to drive the car each time you get in the darn thing. There will be more days that driving the Porker will be more of an event than getting in the Nissan; however competent it is. Be happy with that.
It's supposed to be about how much of an occasion it is to drive the car each time you get in the darn thing. There will be more days that driving the Porker will be more of an event than getting in the Nissan; however competent it is. Be happy with that.
Dr S said:
Here a couple of interesting observations from Nissan's GT-R record drive, that come from a highly reliable source without any connections to/interest in Porsche.
Nissan had a couple of GT-R's at the Ring that day. The car that did the record run featured:
Porsche had Walter Rohrl checking out the GT-R and his best time was 07:45. Yesterday another former Rallye champion (who holds the fastest lap on the Ring in the wet - so no rookie either) managed to get near 07:50 in not fully ideal conditions using a stock customer car from overseas.
Given these data points the 07:29 posted by Nissan were not set by a standard car. End of story.
Given that Walter R managed a truly excellent 07:45 I wonder why Nissan bothered to cheat at all. It's a fantastic time well into 997TT/GT3RS territory for a fraction of the price that should really get the guys at Porsche (and potential customers) thinking. IMHO the car also has a dramatic presence in the metal and sounds great.
The 07:29 from a standard GT-R, however, only people could believe who like to ignore some basic laws of physics and/or are happy to find a reason to look down on people who can afford more expensive cars than themselves.
so your friend got close enough to observe that it was on 110 octane fuel, got under it to see that the pre cat was removed and the interior was stripped out, but he couldn't even tell if the tyres were featured non standard rubber?Nissan had a couple of GT-R's at the Ring that day. The car that did the record run featured:
- stripped out interior
- missing pre-cat
- use of 110 octane race fuel
Porsche had Walter Rohrl checking out the GT-R and his best time was 07:45. Yesterday another former Rallye champion (who holds the fastest lap on the Ring in the wet - so no rookie either) managed to get near 07:50 in not fully ideal conditions using a stock customer car from overseas.
Given these data points the 07:29 posted by Nissan were not set by a standard car. End of story.
Given that Walter R managed a truly excellent 07:45 I wonder why Nissan bothered to cheat at all. It's a fantastic time well into 997TT/GT3RS territory for a fraction of the price that should really get the guys at Porsche (and potential customers) thinking. IMHO the car also has a dramatic presence in the metal and sounds great.
The 07:29 from a standard GT-R, however, only people could believe who like to ignore some basic laws of physics and/or are happy to find a reason to look down on people who can afford more expensive cars than themselves.
Pugsey said:
Sabine faster than Walter?!? She shared a drive in my mates car at the 'Ring a while back. Seemed quite wound up, was slower than said mate and other two drivers - all good but keen club drivers only - and then stacked it on the first lap! Guess, as with everything, it depends who you talk to............
Sabine isn't the fastest out there, but she is quite good, especially in the wet.I'm not sure how well your "keen club drivers" know the circuit, but Sabine is probably within 8, maybe 10, seconds of the absolute fastest times in equivalent equipment, and there are not more than a handful of people in Britain who are that quick.
Perhaps the day in question was atypical?
The fastest guys out there, such as Menzel, Alzen, Basseng and Lieb, are really effing quick.
flemke said:
Pugsey said:
Sabine faster than Walter?!? She shared a drive in my mates car at the 'Ring a while back. Seemed quite wound up, was slower than said mate and other two drivers - all good but keen club drivers only - and then stacked it on the first lap! Guess, as with everything, it depends who you talk to............
Sabine isn't the fastest out there, but she is quite good, especially in the wet.I'm not sure how well your "keen club drivers" know the circuit, but Sabine is probably within 8, maybe 10, seconds of the absolute fastest times in equivalent equipment, and there are not more than a handful of people in Britain who are that quick.
Perhaps the day in question was atypical?
The fastest guys out there, such as Menzel, Alzen, Basseng and Lieb, are really effing quick.
On the original topic: It amuses me to see how desperate some people are to believe the Nissan times (despite better knowledge) and put very different standards on "facts" for the pro and con side of the claimed times.
The only thing we have as "fact" for Nissan's claims is a video that shows that a car has been able to get around the ring in 07:29 (which quite a number have done already) but not what type of car it was. I would like to see the evidence in that video that it was a standard car. Could you folks please point that out to me? Thanks.
I still think that the GT-R is a fantastic machine, a great achievement and a highly desirable car - especially for the money we're talking. It just annoys me when a manufacturer thinks he can bullsh*t me.
Anyway, it's close to impossible to make people doubt something they want so much to believe.
Dr S said:
flemke said:
Pugsey said:
Sabine faster than Walter?!? She shared a drive in my mates car at the 'Ring a while back. Seemed quite wound up, was slower than said mate and other two drivers - all good but keen club drivers only - and then stacked it on the first lap! Guess, as with everything, it depends who you talk to............
Sabine isn't the fastest out there, but she is quite good, especially in the wet.I'm not sure how well your "keen club drivers" know the circuit, but Sabine is probably within 8, maybe 10, seconds of the absolute fastest times in equivalent equipment, and there are not more than a handful of people in Britain who are that quick.
Perhaps the day in question was atypical?
The fastest guys out there, such as Menzel, Alzen, Basseng and Lieb, are really effing quick.
On the original topic: It amuses me to see how desperate some people are to believe the Nissan times (despite better knowledge) and put very different standards on "facts" for the pro and con side of the claimed times.
The only thing we have as "fact" for Nissan's claims is a video that shows that a car has been able to get around the ring in 07:29 (which quite a number have done already) but not what type of car it was. I would like to see the evidence in that video that it was a standard car. Could you folks please point that out to me? Thanks.
I still think that the GT-R is a fantastic machine, a great achievement and a highly desirable car - especially for the money we're talking. It just annoys me when a manufacturer thinks he can bullsh*t me.
Anyway, it's close to impossible to make people doubt something they want so much to believe.
Dr S said:
Yesterday another former Rallye champion (who holds the fastest lap on the Ring in the wet - so no rookie either) managed to get near 07:50 in not fully ideal conditions using a stock customer car from overseas.
Just to add a bit towards your post dr S. The aforementioned rallye star during one of the recent nurburgring 24hrs 30-45s a lap quicker than even the manthey car when heavy fog descended on the Eifel. He knows the place very very well.I dropped him an email and he sent me this and asked me to post it onto the discussion:
"Hi Adam,
Its funny how fast information goes around the world! I drove the Nissan GTR yesterday for KW with the KW clubsport and with the original suspension. All other parts were stock and the weight was original! Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49)
So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45!
The secret source, who watched the test of the 3 cars is not so secret: He owns a guest house in Nürbrug and was there at the test and watched everything. I spoke to him 2 days ago and it was true that tha car was far away from stock, that means power, sound, tyres, exhaust, weight!
But anyway the Nissan GTR is fast also in stock outfit and fun to drive. Only when acclerating it would need more power to the rear, to kill the understeer. Under braking conditions it steers very good into corners! Sometimes to much, but then it is even more fun!
If You want, You can post that in the internet! Source: Wolf!
Danke und Viele Grüße"
I am a big fan of the GTR, I am a little saddened that Nissan have cheated which does detract hugely from the cars very impressive performance. (7:45 full laps is astonishing for such a heavy car).
best,
adam
Dr S said:
flemke said:
Pugsey said:
Sabine faster than Walter?!? She shared a drive in my mates car at the 'Ring a while back. Seemed quite wound up, was slower than said mate and other two drivers - all good but keen club drivers only - and then stacked it on the first lap! Guess, as with everything, it depends who you talk to............
Sabine isn't the fastest out there, but she is quite good, especially in the wet.I'm not sure how well your "keen club drivers" know the circuit, but Sabine is probably within 8, maybe 10, seconds of the absolute fastest times in equivalent equipment, and there are not more than a handful of people in Britain who are that quick.
Perhaps the day in question was atypical?
The fastest guys out there, such as Menzel, Alzen, Basseng and Lieb, are really effing quick.
On the original topic: It amuses me to see how desperate some people are to believe the Nissan times (despite better knowledge) and put very different standards on "facts" for the pro and con side of the claimed times.
The only thing we have as "fact" for Nissan's claims is a video that shows that a car has been able to get around the ring in 07:29 (which quite a number have done already) but not what type of car it was. I would like to see the evidence in that video that it was a standard car. Could you folks please point that out to me? Thanks.
I still think that the GT-R is a fantastic machine, a great achievement and a highly desirable car - especially for the money we're talking. It just annoys me when a manufacturer thinks he can bullsh*t me.
Anyway, it's close to impossible to make people doubt something they want so much to believe.
Not sure why you attached that mini rant to my quote. I was merely commenting on another posters comment re Sabine/Wallter. I haven't expressed any views re the great (but pointless) 'Nissan lap times' debate. I don't possess any 'brand loyalty' frankly.
Flemke.
They've all either won or finished at the front of their class at the 'Ring and spend a fair bit of time there so not bad I guess. My comment was really in response to someone who stated (via third party info) that Sabine was faster than Herr R round the 'Ring and was made to demonstrate that these 'facts' really depend on 'who you speak to'. Having spent time in car with Sabine and been round the 'Ring once with Walter I have no idea frankly who would be faster given identical cars and don't really care. I suspect that there's a local out there who for years has taken out his ratty Mk1 Golf every week come rain or shine but never bothers to race who might blow EVERYONE into the weeds given the equipment. We'll never know.
Edited by Pugsey on Wednesday 5th November 09:19
peterpeter said:
so your friend got close enough to observe that it was on 110 octane fuel, got under it to see that the pre cat was removed and the interior was stripped out, but he couldn't even tell if the tyres were featured non standard rubber?
This. How do you tell the car is running a decat pipe without squeezing past the tyres first?I have no idea if Walter is faster than Sabine as my friend is imaginary.
Has "Wolf!" driven pork round there to match Walter's times? Kind of meaningless if he hasn't.
Consistency of a second or two over many miles and variable conditions? Maybe on a modern F1 circuit, but I don't buy that it's possible on something as long as the Nurburgring. A little bit of oil, a damp patch, temperature, air pressure, etc. etc. So many variables....
My conclusion - both are great cars and more capable than 99.99% of the people that will ever drive them.
AdamT said:
Dr S said:
Yesterday another former Rallye champion (who holds the fastest lap on the Ring in the wet - so no rookie either) managed to get near 07:50 in not fully ideal conditions using a stock customer car from overseas.
Just to add a bit towards your post dr S. The aforementioned rallye star during one of the recent nurburgring 24hrs 30-45s a lap quicker than even the manthey car when heavy fog descended on the Eifel. He knows the place very very well.I dropped him an email and he sent me this and asked me to post it onto the discussion:
"Hi Adam,
Its funny how fast information goes around the world! I drove the Nissan GTR yesterday for KW with the KW clubsport and with the original suspension. All other parts were stock and the weight was original! Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49)
So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45!
The secret source, who watched the test of the 3 cars is not so secret: He owns a guest house in Nürbrug and was there at the test and watched everything. I spoke to him 2 days ago and it was true that tha car was far away from stock, that means power, sound, tyres, exhaust, weight!
But anyway the Nissan GTR is fast also in stock outfit and fun to drive. Only when acclerating it would need more power to the rear, to kill the understeer. Under braking conditions it steers very good into corners! Sometimes to much, but then it is even more fun!
If You want, You can post that in the internet! Source: Wolf!
Danke und Viele Grüße"
I am a big fan of the GTR, I am a little saddened that Nissan have cheated which does detract hugely from the cars very impressive performance. (7:45 full laps is astonishing for such a heavy car).
best,
adam
[AJ] said:
AdamT said:
Dr S said:
Yesterday another former Rallye champion (who holds the fastest lap on the Ring in the wet - so no rookie either) managed to get near 07:50 in not fully ideal conditions using a stock customer car from overseas.
Just to add a bit towards your post dr S. The aforementioned rallye star during one of the recent nurburgring 24hrs 30-45s a lap quicker than even the manthey car when heavy fog descended on the Eifel. He knows the place very very well.I dropped him an email and he sent me this and asked me to post it onto the discussion:
"Hi Adam,
Its funny how fast information goes around the world! I drove the Nissan GTR yesterday for KW with the KW clubsport and with the original suspension. All other parts were stock and the weight was original! Due to the fact, that there where some passing manouvers and 2 small mistakes in my line, the theoretical best time, calculated from my best sectors (with data logger), was a 7.46. ( a real lap was 7,49)
So I think, it is not possible, to go faster, when W.Röhrl and Chr.Menzel also where not able to go under 7.45!
The secret source, who watched the test of the 3 cars is not so secret: He owns a guest house in Nürbrug and was there at the test and watched everything. I spoke to him 2 days ago and it was true that tha car was far away from stock, that means power, sound, tyres, exhaust, weight!
But anyway the Nissan GTR is fast also in stock outfit and fun to drive. Only when acclerating it would need more power to the rear, to kill the understeer. Under braking conditions it steers very good into corners! Sometimes to much, but then it is even more fun!
If You want, You can post that in the internet! Source: Wolf!
Danke und Viele Grüße"
I am a big fan of the GTR, I am a little saddened that Nissan have cheated which does detract hugely from the cars very impressive performance. (7:45 full laps is astonishing for such a heavy car).
best,
adam
Dr S said:
I see that there are still plenty of people who love to believe the Nissan claims. Nobody hinders you to do so. I'm just surprised that you don't get second thoughts when a 1.8 tonne car with 480hp that carries many compromises to work on the road as well laps the Ring virtually at the same speed as an MC12, a car designed for the track with substantially lower weight and much higher power. I guess it is the same people who still believe in Santa Claus...
First off, let me just say that I am no fan of the GT-R, I just cant get my head around the way it looks, but people need to stop harking on about this whole power to weight issue. It just does not work like that in the real world. I have used this example before but I think it is worth repeating here. The F1 cars of the 80's produced close to 1500hp with their turbo motors and weighed about the same as current F1 cars which only produce about 700hp. If we apply your logic then those F1 cars of the 80's would have produced lap times far in excess of the current cars but they don’t, and why is that? Well it comes down to superior aerodynamics and the ability to carry speed through the corners which is a combination of superior suspension and aero. And this is what the GT-R brings to the party, the ability to carry speed into the corners and manage its aero performance.
Also, as has been shown by various independent Dyno tests the GT-R's produces more than the quoted 480hp, and you would expect that to be the case with a hand built engine.
Hopefully this puts that argument to bed
Edited by Streetrod on Wednesday 5th November 10:29
PHOENIXUK said:
Hopefully this puts that argument to bed
I really doubt that.Edited by Streetrod on Wednesday 5th November 10:37
Pugsey said:
Flemke.
They've all either won or finished at the front of their class at the 'Ring and spend a fair bit of time there so not bad I guess. My comment was really in response to someone who stated (via third party info) that Sabine was faster than Herr R round the 'Ring and was made to demonstrate that these 'facts' really depend on 'who you speak to'. Having spent time in car with Sabine and been round the 'Ring once with Walter I have no idea frankly who would be faster given identical cars and don't really care. I suspect that there's a local out there who for years has taken out his ratty Mk1 Golf every week come rain or shine but never bothers to race who might blow EVERYONE into the weeds given the equipment. We'll never know.
In the next couple of days I'll be seeing someone who will have a very good idea of how fast Rohrl (now 61) is these days. I shall try to remember to ask his opinion, and then report back.They've all either won or finished at the front of their class at the 'Ring and spend a fair bit of time there so not bad I guess. My comment was really in response to someone who stated (via third party info) that Sabine was faster than Herr R round the 'Ring and was made to demonstrate that these 'facts' really depend on 'who you speak to'. Having spent time in car with Sabine and been round the 'Ring once with Walter I have no idea frankly who would be faster given identical cars and don't really care. I suspect that there's a local out there who for years has taken out his ratty Mk1 Golf every week come rain or shine but never bothers to race who might blow EVERYONE into the weeds given the equipment. We'll never know.
noumenon said:
Has "Wolf!" driven pork round there to match Walter's times? Kind of meaningless if he hasn't.
Wolfgang has tested for ruf for several years. But I'm sure soon someone will be around claiming that they are no real porsches. 
AdamT: you were spot on, WW's the man.an excellent driver and a great chap.
Dr S said:
noumenon said:
Has "Wolf!" driven pork round there to match Walter's times? Kind of meaningless if he hasn't.
Wolfgang has tested for ruf for several years. But I'm sure soon someone will be around claiming that they are no real porsches. AdamT: you were spot on, WW's the man.an excellent driver and a great chap.
For a better test just get a group of average GTR owners to drive around the ring and then get agroup of average 911tt owners to do the same, average out their times and compare.
What racing drivers do is one thing, and its great to say that this car is fastest etc etc, but at the end of the day people that are forking out the money probably don't decide on buying either car on how fast it goes around the ring, its just information for fan boys of either sides to argue about on the net.
Well done.
What racing drivers do is one thing, and its great to say that this car is fastest etc etc, but at the end of the day people that are forking out the money probably don't decide on buying either car on how fast it goes around the ring, its just information for fan boys of either sides to argue about on the net.
Well done.
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