Finally: Some facts on the GT-R's Ring time

[forza whites]

tomw2000 said:

What I don't understand is (well actually there's a long list, but in this context) why has the GTR specifically caused such an uproar when compared to the performance of Porsches and why now?

I'm pretty inexperienced/new to (relatively) nippy cars, so do let me know if this _has_ happened in the past.

But surely in the past there were other cheaper cars with better/similar performance to the Porsche models of the time? I dunno, older C2s versus various cosworth's, mercs, BMWs etc? (someone gimme a hand here).

Why is there such 'panic' about the GTR (and maybe the odd bmw M series car) and that Porsche have to do something now?

Surely porsche models compared with other manufacturers have always been in the same boat?

Edited by tomw2000 on Friday 7th November 15:11 - silly typos

Edited by tomw2000 on Friday 7th November 15:12

Very good Post.

I personally think that Porsche (especially at the top end 100K plus cars) have been pretty beating off all the comparable competition. Nissan come along with a car and apparently better the flagship shall we say the 911 turbo...albiet by in what is real world terms, small amounts...and for a lot less money.

Yes your right about the past...Vauxhall once said their Omega was quicker than the 944...which I think it was by 0.3 to a certain speed...

What would you wanna drive?

I don't like the GTR as the styling is way too Mcdonalds 'init' but its staggering quick and has obviously ruffled Porsche's long standing feathers....hence their 'ring' outburst...

Personally I would be very happy buying a 911 Turbo...even if other cars where a little quicker here and there.....there are always other real world 'ownership' factors too....I've grown up with Porsches so for me its a no brainer.....Saying that would love a F430 too

[tomw2000]

forza whites said:

tomw2000 said:

What I don't understand is (well actually there's a long list, but in this context) why has the GTR specifically caused such an uproar when compared to the performance of Porsches and why now?

I'm pretty inexperienced/new to (relatively) nippy cars, so do let me know if this _has_ happened in the past.

But surely in the past there were other cheaper cars with better/similar performance to the Porsche models of the time? I dunno, older C2s versus various cosworth's, mercs, BMWs etc? (someone gimme a hand here).

Why is there such 'panic' about the GTR (and maybe the odd bmw M series car) and that Porsche have to do something now?

Surely porsche models compared with other manufacturers have always been in the same boat?

Edited by tomw2000 on Friday 7th November 15:11 - silly typos

Edited by tomw2000 on Friday 7th November 15:12

Very good Post.

I personally think that Porsche (especially at the top end 100K plus cars) have been pretty beating off all the comparable competition. Nissan come along with a car and apparently better the flagship shall we say the 911 turbo...albiet by in what is real world terms, small amounts...and for a lot less money.

Yes your right about the past...Vauxhall once said their Omega was quicker than the 944...which I think it was by 0.3 to a certain speed...

What would you wanna drive?

I don't like the GTR as the styling is way too Mcdonalds 'init' but its staggering quick and has obviously ruffled Porsche's long standing feathers....hence their 'ring' outburst...

Personally I would be very happy buying a 911 Turbo...even if other cars where a little quicker here and there.....there are always other real world 'ownership' factors too....I've grown up with Porsches so for me its a no brainer.....Saying that would love a F430 too

Thanks for reply

Personally I prefer to own 'my' (well, the wife's, but hey she rarely drives it) 997c2s. But I knew when I bought it that car values fall like a stone and that it wasn't the fastest car in the world.

So in light of the facts:

1) many (most?) porsche owners (me included) will be unlikely to get close to claimed figures
2) road driving is very different to the world of tracking
3) it takes alot of skill to drive fast safely (related to point 1)

do you think I'm really thinking about 'ring times each time I get overtaken by another Scooby? No, I don't care.

I'm more worried about leaves blocking my radiator

[forza whites]

tomw2000 said:

forza whites said:

tomw2000 said:

What I don't understand is (well actually there's a long list, but in this context) why has the GTR specifically caused such an uproar when compared to the performance of Porsches and why now?

I'm pretty inexperienced/new to (relatively) nippy cars, so do let me know if this _has_ happened in the past.

But surely in the past there were other cheaper cars with better/similar performance to the Porsche models of the time? I dunno, older C2s versus various cosworth's, mercs, BMWs etc? (someone gimme a hand here).

Why is there such 'panic' about the GTR (and maybe the odd bmw M series car) and that Porsche have to do something now?

Surely porsche models compared with other manufacturers have always been in the same boat?

Edited by tomw2000 on Friday 7th November 15:11 - silly typos

Edited by tomw2000 on Friday 7th November 15:12

Very good Post.

I personally think that Porsche (especially at the top end 100K plus cars) have been pretty beating off all the comparable competition. Nissan come along with a car and apparently better the flagship shall we say the 911 turbo...albiet by in what is real world terms, small amounts...and for a lot less money.

Yes your right about the past...Vauxhall once said their Omega was quicker than the 944...which I think it was by 0.3 to a certain speed...

What would you wanna drive?

I don't like the GTR as the styling is way too Mcdonalds 'init' but its staggering quick and has obviously ruffled Porsche's long standing feathers....hence their 'ring' outburst...

Personally I would be very happy buying a 911 Turbo...even if other cars where a little quicker here and there.....there are always other real world 'ownership' factors too....I've grown up with Porsches so for me its a no brainer.....Saying that would love a F430 too

Thanks for reply

Personally I prefer to own 'my' (well, the wife's, but hey she rarely drives it) 997c2s. But I knew when I bought it that car values fall like a stone and that it wasn't the fastest car in the world.

So in light of the facts:

1) many (most?) porsche owners (me included) will be unlikely to get close to claimed figures
2) road driving is very different to the world of tracking
3) it takes alot of skill to drive fast safely (related to point 1)

do you think I'm really thinking about 'ring times each time I get overtaken by another Scooby? No, I don't care.

I'm more worried about leaves blocking my radiator

Point to point mate (especially say north wales/yorkshire etc) nothing that much quicker than a 997 C2/C4S !

Your right of course..not all of us scream round at 120+ all the time...AND it does take time to get the best out of a 911....but once you 'get it' they are great.....

There are some other great cars out there...but I've never felt the need to 'spout off' how great 911's are on 'their' particular forums....

[Streetrod]

forza whites said:

tomw2000 said:

What I don't understand is (well actually there's a long list, but in this context) why has the GTR specifically caused such an uproar when compared to the performance of Porsches and why now?

I'm pretty inexperienced/new to (relatively) nippy cars, so do let me know if this _has_ happened in the past.

But surely in the past there were other cheaper cars with better/similar performance to the Porsche models of the time? I dunno, older C2s versus various cosworth's, mercs, BMWs etc? (someone gimme a hand here).

Why is there such 'panic' about the GTR (and maybe the odd bmw M series car) and that Porsche have to do something now?

Surely porsche models compared with other manufacturers have always been in the same boat?

Edited by tomw2000 on Friday 7th November 15:11 - silly typos

Edited by tomw2000 on Friday 7th November 15:12

Very good Post.

I personally think that Porsche (especially at the top end 100K plus cars) have been pretty beating off all the comparable competition. Nissan come along with a car and apparently better the flagship shall we say the 911 turbo...albiet by in what is real world terms, small amounts...and for a lot less money.

Yes your right about the past...Vauxhall once said their Omega was quicker than the 944...which I think it was by 0.3 to a certain speed...

What would you wanna drive?

I don't like the GTR as the styling is way too Mcdonalds 'init' but its staggering quick and has obviously ruffled Porsche's long standing feathers....hence their 'ring' outburst...

Personally I would be very happy buying a 911 Turbo...even if other cars where a little quicker here and there.....there are always other real world 'ownership' factors too....I've grown up with Porsches so for me its a no brainer.....Saying that would love a F430 too

I think a lot of this is down to the fact that Nissan specifically targeted the 911 Turbo as its benchmark with a view they were going to produce a faster car, and have been happy to push this fact to the public. A lot of Porsche fans took exception to this upstart trying to swim in their pool and Skyline fans love to wind up the Porsche fans. At that point everyone else jumped in with an opinion which brings us to where we are today

[Nurburgsingh]

This got me thinking.. so I asked a very knowledgeable friend some simple questions to see if they could clear it up...

ME: " Is the GT-R quicker around the 'ring than a 911 GT2?"
My friend: "No but yeah but no yeah but no but yeah but no yeah but.."

hmmm... inconclusive.. so then I asked her about one of teh other statements made on thsi thread..

Me: "Is Sabine quicker tham Walter Rorhl?"
My friend: OHHHHH My god i cant believe you just said that!! Is that what Shelly Todd said? she’s a bh anyway an has been completely
going around saying that Destiny stole some money out of
Rochelle’s purse but I ain’t never not even some to Rochelle
‘cause she spat in Michaela’s hair





can we now PLEASE give it a rest!

[Pesty]

Nurburgsingh said:

!

Sorry to go ooff topic but this guy gets my vote for best name on the forum

[shoestring7]

Streetrod said:

paul_k said:

. Corvette Z06

Cd = 0.34
Frontal Area = 22.3 sqft
CdA = 7.58 sqft

Ferrari 430

Cd = 0.34
Frontal Area = 21.53 sqft
CdA = 7.32 sqft

911 Turbo (2006)

Cd = 0.31
Frontal Area = 21.96 sqft
CdA = 6.81 sqft

Nissan GT-R

Cd = 0.27
Frontal Area = 22.5 sqft
CdA = 6.07 sqft

Thanks Paul for those figures, I have also had those numbers confirmed as being correct. The problem most people have is they look at a car and make an instant assumptions as to how aerodynamic a car is and too a layman a Porsche does look more aero, but as you have shown this is not always the case.

So if the GT-R has the 550bhp that the RR test suggest, and has a CDA 30% less than a C06, why doesn't it do about 220mph?

SS7

[Streetrod]

shoestring7 said:

Streetrod said:

paul_k said:

. Corvette Z06

Cd = 0.34
Frontal Area = 22.3 sqft
CdA = 7.58 sqft

Ferrari 430

Cd = 0.34
Frontal Area = 21.53 sqft
CdA = 7.32 sqft

911 Turbo (2006)

Cd = 0.31
Frontal Area = 21.96 sqft
CdA = 6.81 sqft

Nissan GT-R

Cd = 0.27
Frontal Area = 22.5 sqft
CdA = 6.07 sqft

Thanks Paul for those figures, I have also had those numbers confirmed as being correct. The problem most people have is they look at a car and make an instant assumptions as to how aerodynamic a car is and too a layman a Porsche does look more aero, but as you have shown this is not always the case.

So if the GT-R has the 550bhp that the RR test suggest, and has a CDA 30% less than a C06, why doesn't it do about 220mph?

SS7

Gearing!!!!

[Pugsey]

I see that the GT-R is EVO's Car of The Year (this months issue) ahead of the GT2.

[Dr S]

Pugsey said:

I see that the GT-R is EVO's Car of The Year (this months issue) ahead of the GT2.

Exactly because the gt-r is so highly rated beyond pure performance stats, I don't get why Nissan needed to cheat on the ring time. It somehow devalues the car in my eyes. The "real" time on GT3 level would have been a strong enough statement.

[993SIL]

Pugsey said:

I see that the GT-R is EVO's Car of The Year (this months issue) ahead of the GT2.

B*gger. My copy's still at home on the doormat!

Some of the Beetle vs Datsun stuff on here is a bit silly though. Was that GTR completely standard? Possibly not...

Does it offer phenominal performance for the money? Well... Yes

You takes yer choices and you pays yer money. Personally I'd find it a little distasteful if Nissan had blatently cheated to get that figure but I doubt that a) it's that clear cut and b) we will ever really know the truth

[CarMad426]

Streetrod said:

shoestring7 said:

Streetrod said:

paul_k said:

. Corvette Z06

Cd = 0.34
Frontal Area = 22.3 sqft
CdA = 7.58 sqft

Ferrari 430

Cd = 0.34
Frontal Area = 21.53 sqft
CdA = 7.32 sqft

911 Turbo (2006)

Cd = 0.31
Frontal Area = 21.96 sqft
CdA = 6.81 sqft

Nissan GT-R

Cd = 0.27
Frontal Area = 22.5 sqft
CdA = 6.07 sqft

Thanks Paul for those figures, I have also had those numbers confirmed as being correct. The problem most people have is they look at a car and make an instant assumptions as to how aerodynamic a car is and too a layman a Porsche does look more aero, but as you have shown this is not always the case.

So if the GT-R has the 550bhp that the RR test suggest, and has a CDA 30% less than a C06, why doesn't it do about 220mph?

SS7

Gearing!!!!

I dont think the R35 GTR has a frontal area of 22.5 Sq Ft its bigger than the old R34 GTR which had a frontal area of 26.13 Sq Ft (2.4276m^2)
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/48117-co-drag-r34.html

Which would made the CdA 0.27x26.13 =7.05 ( at a minimum as R35 is a bit bigger)

AlsoWhere did you get your figures for the R35 GTR as i havent seen nissan releasing any figures for frontal area i have been looking for accurate figures to put into that Cartest program.

Also in all testing done on the GTR its over 80-100mph where its starts slowing down compared to a 911 turbo which would point to the aero being worse.


Also im pretty sure the Z06 has a Cd of 0.31 not 0.34 and the frontal area is 21.6, allthough i have seen the ZO6 listed at 0.31 and also 0.34 but the frontal area seems to stay at 21.6,

Putting those figures into the cartest program the Z06 would top out at 198mph with a 0.34 Cd and with a 0.31 Cd it would top out at 204mph, but thats with the power at exactly 505bhp and some cars will produce a little bit more power than that.

The Z06 power can vary by 5% in the SAE dyno test

530bhp High end of the scale
479bhp Low end of the scale

As GM claim 198mph as top speed i would assume that a car with 479bhp would have to be able to do 198mph too and according to Cartest a 479bhp Z06 with a 0.31 Cd should do 201mph, usually GM is pretty conservative about the Z06's performance and most figures they release are lower than what it actually possible, a 530bhp Z06 would do 207mph with a 0.31 Cd

There is a video of a 2008 Zo6 on the autobahn doing 206mph (333km/h),
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbqxixtt4lk
I have also read that the ZO6 speedometer is pretty accurate compared to a GPS so it would point to a 0.31 Cd, but who knows as not many people test the top speed of cars with accurate equipment.

Edited by CarMad426 on Saturday 8th November 16:49

[forza whites]

Pugsey said:

I see that the GT-R is EVO's Car of The Year (this months issue) ahead of the GT2.

Yeah Good article and the GTR is immense.......

the only thing it lacks is/are looks/pedigree...The revised Aston again disappointing..Lambo has everything!!

[paul0843]

for me what it boils down to in this nissan v porsche is not the fraction of a second here and there ,but the emotion i would get from owning this cars....sorry nissan
p.s. just been watching top gear re-runs on dave....clarkson says he prefers chrysler crossfire over nissan and audi tt...i am sure he does...lol

[Guyr]

BTW The driver of the 7:49 is Wolfgang Webber, whose resume is here:

http://www.wwmotorsport.de/indexe.htm

-1989 I began Rallying as a co driver
-1990 I changed to the drivers-seat and won four championships in my first year of driving
-1992 European-Rallye-Champion on a BMW M3
-1995 European-Rallye-Champion on a Ford Escort RS Cosworth
-Since 1990 I`m Instructor for Sports-, Rallye- and "Safer"-driving
-Since 1992 Precisiondriving
-Since 1998 test- and demonstrationdriver for RUF-Automobile, manufacturer of the fastest series-cars of the world!
-Since 1998 regularily participient at the 24 Hour races around the Nürburgring
-Since 2005 Test- and racedriver for the EMOTAG Honda S2000 Team
-2006 several class wins in the SP3 class on the N-ring with Honda S2000
-2006 11th overall in the 24hours on the ring with RUF RGT RR
-2007 7th overall and 5th in class in the 24hours on the N-ring with RUF RGT

Do you really think that a Japanese factory driver can be 20 seconds a lap faster in an indentical stock GTR.........?

Guy

[gp900bj]

Dr S said:

......If you had read my post properly you'd have realised that the data logs I referred to were from the tests the former rallye champion (Wolf) did last Monday. He used an overseas customer car - Nissan were not involved in this. The test was initiated by KW.

Your comment on "random dude" just shows how little you know. Here another quote from this thread which you apparently have not read either:

Dr S I see you have carefully avoided my question. When I spoke of random dude I was referring to the Guesthouse owner. How did this Guesthouse owner see a stripped out interior when the the car in the 7:29 video clearly shows a FULL interior.

Furthermore, since when do highly competitive and secretive Auto manufacturers allow Guesthouse owners to observe the inner workings of their development program. Plainly this is complete BS from beginning to end.

This story is flimsy at best. You and this magical Guesthouse owner will need to dream up something far more substantial.

Good Luck

[Nurburgsingh]

Pesty said:

Nurburgsingh said:

!

Sorry to go ooff topic but this guy gets my vote for best name on the forum

Thanks...

I also tie my turban in such a way that the top recreates the pitch and angle of the Caroselle perfectly!

[Trommel]

Guyr said:

Do you really think that a Japanese factory driver can be 20 seconds a lap faster in an indentical stock GTR.........?

Unlikely.

But - do you really think Nissan would massage such a high-profile result when they had already shown the car to be very quick?

Unlikely.

Does everyone with an opinion have an agenda?

Yes.

Is the incessant internet nonsense surrounding the car getting very tedious?

Yes.

[dumbfunk]

I was lucky enough to get close up to a longitudinally cut-away GT-R on the press day of this year's Paris show and was genuinely astonished by the level of engineering deep under the skin. The same day job that got me into the show also gives me a strong insight into the world of automotive PR and the fact that we are even having the conversation about whether a Nissan really eclipsed the best that Porsche can muster shows without doubt that whatever they did/didn't do to their 'ring car ... it was an unabated success!


dumbfunk

[flemke]

Pugsey said:

Dr S said:

flemke said:

Pugsey said:

Sabine faster than Walter?!? She shared a drive in my mates car at the 'Ring a while back. Seemed quite wound up, was slower than said mate and other two drivers - all good but keen club drivers only - and then stacked it on the first lap! Guess, as with everything, it depends who you talk to............

Sabine isn't the fastest out there, but she is quite good, especially in the wet.
I'm not sure how well your "keen club drivers" know the circuit, but Sabine is probably within 8, maybe 10, seconds of the absolute fastest times in equivalent equipment, and there are not more than a handful of people in Britain who are that quick.
Perhaps the day in question was atypical?
The fastest guys out there, such as Menzel, Alzen, Basseng and Lieb, are really effing quick.

2nded.

On the original topic: It amuses me to see how desperate some people are to believe the Nissan times (despite better knowledge) and put very different standards on "facts" for the pro and con side of the claimed times.

The only thing we have as "fact" for Nissan's claims is a video that shows that a car has been able to get around the ring in 07:29 (which quite a number have done already) but not what type of car it was. I would like to see the evidence in that video that it was a standard car. Could you folks please point that out to me? Thanks.

I still think that the GT-R is a fantastic machine, a great achievement and a highly desirable car - especially for the money we're talking. It just annoys me when a manufacturer thinks he can bullsh*t me.

Anyway, it's close to impossible to make people doubt something they want so much to believe.

DR S.
Not sure why you attached that mini rant to my quote. I was merely commenting on another posters comment re Sabine/Wallter. I haven't expressed any views re the great (but pointless) 'Nissan lap times' debate. I don't possess any 'brand loyalty' frankly.

Flemke.
They've all either won or finished at the front of their class at the 'Ring and spend a fair bit of time there so not bad I guess. My comment was really in response to someone who stated (via third party info) that Sabine was faster than Herr R round the 'Ring and was made to demonstrate that these 'facts' really depend on 'who you speak to'. Having spent time in car with Sabine and been round the 'Ring once with Walter I have no idea frankly who would be faster given identical cars and don't really care. I suspect that there's a local out there who for years has taken out his ratty Mk1 Golf every week come rain or shine but never bothers to race who might blow EVERYONE into the weeds given the equipment. We'll never know.

Pugsey (and other interested parties),

I spoke with two fellows about this. If there are five people in the world who are in a position to have an authoritative opinion about this, they are two of them. Their names are well-known.

The question related speficially to the Nordschleife.
One said that - currently - Walter is as fast as the fastest guys, who would be Menzel, Alzen, Lieb and Dumas, maybe a couple of others.
The other said - currently - Walter is nearly as fast, maybe within a second or two, as those guys.
They agreed that Walter is not quite as fast as he was at his peak, although his superior circuit knowledge compensated for some of that diminution. They said that, as expected, the younger drivers would definitely be faster than Walter on a modern circuit, such as 'ring GP.

They reckon that Sabine is 8-10 sec a lap slower.
One would need to have experienced how genuinely fast such a 8-10-sec-slower-lap is to know that is it really bloody fast. Some very "keen British club racers" might think that they were quicker than whatever demo lap Sabine gave them, but it's doubtful that they would have been.
To give you an example, Richard Westbrook is as fast as anyone alive in a GT3 Cup car. Last year Westbrook did, IIRC, three VLN races. He started out not knowing the circuit, but what the pros do is to follow someone fast who does know the circuit, and in that way they're able to keep up with almost anyone as they learn it.
Again, IIRC, by the third race Westbrook's times were about 8-10 seconds off those of Menzel, who was in an identical car. My point is that if Sabine's times are the same as those of the world's best Cup driver, the difference being that she knows the circuit better than anyone does whilst he knows it moderately well, that is still damn fast. I couldn't prove it, but I doubt that there are half-a-dozen Britons who would be as quick.

Back to the main point: Walter Rohrl is still the man. Whatever NS time he sets in a Porsche will be as fast as it can go.