Driving tip for Porsche 911`s
Discussion
Which one !
Le Mans when I managed to catch the old girl through a rather sodden Dunlop curve and literally just folded the wing mirror in, (no damage and even managed to fold the mirror back before coming back to the pits !!)......
Or Folembray where an excursion 2 feet off the track involved a trip to my friends the painters !!
Incidentally a lovely circuit Folembray but bloody lethal on a track day. Little or no run off and no marshalls to prevent you running into an already stricken vehicle, particularly on the blind right hander under the bridge.
When you race cars you`re assured of denting a few panels. You`re chasing the outside envelope of a car`s performance and that doesn`t leave any comfort zone. A quick lap as a driver is actually quite an uncomfortable experience. Even when we do a track day we approach it from a different angle to the guy who doesn`t compete. Whilst we don`t want to total the car there is little point in pottering round a track in the comfort zone, especially if it`s a track you know.
That`s the problem I`m faced with for next year in the GT3. It`s going to be a very tough season as I`ve got to spend a lot of time outside the comfort zone trying to raise my game to compete against some very talented drivers.
As I`ve said on more than one occasion - a tough life - who`d want it ?
Henry
Le Mans when I managed to catch the old girl through a rather sodden Dunlop curve and literally just folded the wing mirror in, (no damage and even managed to fold the mirror back before coming back to the pits !!)......
Or Folembray where an excursion 2 feet off the track involved a trip to my friends the painters !!
Incidentally a lovely circuit Folembray but bloody lethal on a track day. Little or no run off and no marshalls to prevent you running into an already stricken vehicle, particularly on the blind right hander under the bridge.
When you race cars you`re assured of denting a few panels. You`re chasing the outside envelope of a car`s performance and that doesn`t leave any comfort zone. A quick lap as a driver is actually quite an uncomfortable experience. Even when we do a track day we approach it from a different angle to the guy who doesn`t compete. Whilst we don`t want to total the car there is little point in pottering round a track in the comfort zone, especially if it`s a track you know.
That`s the problem I`m faced with for next year in the GT3. It`s going to be a very tough season as I`ve got to spend a lot of time outside the comfort zone trying to raise my game to compete against some very talented drivers.
As I`ve said on more than one occasion - a tough life - who`d want it ?
Henry
Henry-F said:
I hear a lot of people talking about what to do if you "lose" the back end of a 911 when driving. Generally the advice is to "keep your foot rooted to the gas and turn into the spin", ie. if the car`s trying to spin to the right turn the wheel to the left. <br> <br>On the road I`d think that advice would probably cause more problems in 80% of cases. <br> <br>The reason most people loose the car is because they are accelerating too hard and the back end loses grip through a wheel-spining. If you`re turning the steering wheel when this happens the back of the car will swing round. Accelerating more will in fact increase the "wheel spin" at the back an worsten the situation. <br> <br>This type of spin is most common when accelerating from low speed, particularly in a low gear like on a roundabout or slip road for instance. <br> <br>The way to sort things out is to lift off the gas and try and balance the throttle so the wheel spinning stops. Don`t completely lift off the gas or brake. <br> <br>The time you need to keep your foot on the power is when you`re cornering at high speed in a high gear on a good gripping surface and the back end starts to break away. In that instance applying power in effect loads the rear of the car with more weight and helps the tyres to grip. Once again never brake or lift off the power as this will effectively lighten the weight on the back tyres. <br> <br>Sorry if this all sounds obvious and basic stuff but I`ll bet there are a load of people reading the forum who don`t differentiate between the two types of spinning and just remeber the advice to accelerate more. <br> <br>In reality most spins occur accelerating from low speed and turning, mother nature and papa Porsche combine to help you avoid the high speed spin. Mother nature because you shit yourself when approaching a bend at high speed and tend to slow down before you arrive there. Papa Porsche because he engineers the car so that it understeers (you feel the steering wheel go light)first before it oversteers (the back end swings round). <br> <br>If you do feel the steering wheel go light then once again very gently lift off the gas a little to balance the power (again don`t lift off fully or brake), and turn out of the bend if you can to help re-gain front grip, (ie. if you`re turning to the right then move the wheel to the left a bit to "open the bend up" as much as possible. <br> <br>Best bit of advice - avoid the car sliding in the first place by driving slower, making sure your tyres are in good condition and reading the road. If there is a petrol station on a roundabout or junction don`t be too surprised if there is some residual diesel on the road surface from overfilled vehicles ! <br> <br>Keep smiling - Henry
Totally agree - my 3.2 can oversteer scarilly at 35mph on a particular reverse camber, 90 degree right turn when it's damp. To mash the pedal and opposite lock it would make no sense as ar least one rear wheel's already spinning and so is the car. We don't want to prolong this for another moment do we? Better to follow your first instinct and back off slightly, regain the grip then unwind whilst easing onto the gas in a nice smooth action.
However like H says, barreling round a curve at 80 when the rear starts to break is not the time to throw all the weight forward. By even applying even more gas, inertia transfers the weight rearward to increase the pemdulums grip and all you need to do is steer. Recognise the signs early enough and the car should recover fairly smoothly and then you just need to pull over to empty your stomach contents.
okay, okay...
So i've dragged up a topic from 3 years ago - and for that I apologise...
However, I was searching for 911 driving tips, and found this thread (I also found one of nerv's, but thats another story
)
Considering 90% of drivers think they have 'above average' skill, which is impossible, I'm content to say im an 'average' skilled driver.
I'm capable of being in control of a car in most conditions and situations, I understand the physics involved with cars, and also the reasons why things go wrong.
I know the golden rule is 'progression' - or in other words, throttle, brakes and steering are analogue inputs, not digital on/off and treating them as such is asking for trouble...
Anyway, getting to the point, although im an experienced driver, with average skill (on the high end of average of course ) and while I do have RWD experience, I have not (apart from the odd test drive) driven a 911.
Seeing as im buying a 996 - i'd be interested in hints and tips on how the cars behave differently, and if there are any key tips to stay in control.
I realise the 996 is much more watered down than the earlier cars, and Henry gave some great tips with regards losing the back end, but any and all advice is most appreciated..
So i've dragged up a topic from 3 years ago - and for that I apologise...
However, I was searching for 911 driving tips, and found this thread (I also found one of nerv's, but thats another story
) Considering 90% of drivers think they have 'above average' skill, which is impossible, I'm content to say im an 'average' skilled driver.
I'm capable of being in control of a car in most conditions and situations, I understand the physics involved with cars, and also the reasons why things go wrong.
I know the golden rule is 'progression' - or in other words, throttle, brakes and steering are analogue inputs, not digital on/off and treating them as such is asking for trouble...
Anyway, getting to the point, although im an experienced driver, with average skill (on the high end of average of course
) and while I do have RWD experience, I have not (apart from the odd test drive) driven a 911. Seeing as im buying a 996 - i'd be interested in hints and tips on how the cars behave differently, and if there are any key tips to stay in control.
I realise the 996 is much more watered down than the earlier cars, and Henry gave some great tips with regards losing the back end, but any and all advice is most appreciated..
ah yes, it all comes back to me on my first outing on brands hatch and hooning it round paddock hill in a formula first car.. went half way down the hill backwards and wondered why.. now I know.. will avoid the same on the roads in my C4S... only had it 3 months so am still only brave in straight lines.. (what a wimp, yeah I know!)
fidgits said:
Seeing as im buying a 996 - i'd be interested in hints and tips on how the cars behave differently, and if there are any key tips to stay in control.
You won't go far wrong trying a Carlimits day with Andy Walsh at North Weald airfield.
The surface is as rough as a robber's dog but it should show what you and the car can and cannot do in a very safe environment.
If you can master an old fashioned 911 with no ABS, crap brakes, no power steering, steering that loads through a corner then you not only can drive anything but you'll also have the biggest grin on your face that will never wipe off. Electronics are great until you find that you have been a little too silly and the electrics are unable to sort it all out for you. Thats when you wrap it up big time.
No offence meant to anyone, but if you want to hone your driving skills and improve your ability to drive a 911 then do it in a car that does not try and drive for you. A 2.7 RS is a great example of being able to have great fun at sensible speeds. Changing from 4th to 5th at 110mph is still a buzz, in my turbo 4th to 5th is 165mph and I'm not to keen on going to prison.
No offence meant to anyone, but if you want to hone your driving skills and improve your ability to drive a 911 then do it in a car that does not try and drive for you. A 2.7 RS is a great example of being able to have great fun at sensible speeds. Changing from 4th to 5th at 110mph is still a buzz, in my turbo 4th to 5th is 165mph and I'm not to keen on going to prison.
Check out the details??!!I'm always at a loss as to why track drivers and those who profess to be racing drivers, don't do the proper thing and apply themselves properly to the issue of car control.
Most fast driving individuals seem to be relaxed about the fact that the first time they experience serious oversteer, they don't know what to do. Worse, they get frightened by it.
And the answer to the issue is so simple.
Go and practice on a skid pan.
There are a few dotted around the country side and slipping someone a ton to allow you, say three hours in a battered Cortina at 7.5 mph on a Saturday morning, is such an excellent thing to do.
Get used to what constitutes car control. Get used to the feeling of something that's gone over the edge of adhesion. Get used to living with something that's on the edge of adhesion. Get used to what balance is and the relationship between throttle and steering. Get used to the idea that you can momentarily lose adhesion at the rear to an advantage. Put a watch on your progress, get disciplined, understand what's going on.
The two important words here are practice and skid pan.
Professional piano players and tennis players will tell you what practice is. The world's finest do it.
It will do untold good to your confidence; it'll improve your laptime; it'll improve your smoothness; it'll tax you proprioceptors; you'll relax earlier; you'll be more empathetic with your car and you might save a serious accident, and expensive damage. You should never go to the Nurburgring for example without a session, because in the wet, the Ring as an absolute nightmare.
And with due respect to those reading this, when you done a little of the above, maybe you can come back on this board and give up less of the utter bollox that you normally find on here. It’s difficult enough to find the right words on here, let alone properly understand them.
And you know what? It’s real fun too. A real education that’s a good hoot.
Sorry, if this comes across as a bit of a rant, but driver education is appalling IMHO in the UK; fast driver education is even worse. Any 17 year old with the wherewithal can buy a 200 mph monster. Control it properly, do me a favour …
Most fast driving individuals seem to be relaxed about the fact that the first time they experience serious oversteer, they don't know what to do. Worse, they get frightened by it.
And the answer to the issue is so simple.
Go and practice on a skid pan.
There are a few dotted around the country side and slipping someone a ton to allow you, say three hours in a battered Cortina at 7.5 mph on a Saturday morning, is such an excellent thing to do.
Get used to what constitutes car control. Get used to the feeling of something that's gone over the edge of adhesion. Get used to living with something that's on the edge of adhesion. Get used to what balance is and the relationship between throttle and steering. Get used to the idea that you can momentarily lose adhesion at the rear to an advantage. Put a watch on your progress, get disciplined, understand what's going on.
The two important words here are practice and skid pan.
Professional piano players and tennis players will tell you what practice is. The world's finest do it.
It will do untold good to your confidence; it'll improve your laptime; it'll improve your smoothness; it'll tax you proprioceptors; you'll relax earlier; you'll be more empathetic with your car and you might save a serious accident, and expensive damage. You should never go to the Nurburgring for example without a session, because in the wet, the Ring as an absolute nightmare.
And with due respect to those reading this, when you done a little of the above, maybe you can come back on this board and give up less of the utter bollox that you normally find on here. It’s difficult enough to find the right words on here, let alone properly understand them.
And you know what? It’s real fun too. A real education that’s a good hoot.
Sorry, if this comes across as a bit of a rant, but driver education is appalling IMHO in the UK; fast driver education is even worse. Any 17 year old with the wherewithal can buy a 200 mph monster. Control it properly, do me a favour …
ph123 said:
I'm always at a loss as to why track drivers and those who profess to be racing drivers, don't do the proper thing and apply themselves properly to the issue of car control.
Most fast driving individuals seem to be relaxed about the fact that the first time they experience serious oversteer, they don't know what to do. Worse, they get frightened by it.
And the answer to the issue is so simple.
Go and practice on a skid pan.
There are a few dotted around the country side and slipping someone a ton to allow you, say three hours in a battered Cortina at 7.5 mph on a Saturday morning, is such an excellent thing to do.
Get used to what constitutes car control. Get used to the feeling of something that's gone over the edge of adhesion. Get used to living with something that's on the edge of adhesion. Get used to what balance is and the relationship between throttle and steering. Get used to the idea that you can momentarily lose adhesion at the rear to an advantage. Put a watch on your progress, get disciplined, understand what's going on.
The two important words here are practice and skid pan.
Professional piano players and tennis players will tell you what practice is. The world's finest do it.
It will do untold good to your confidence; it'll improve your laptime; it'll improve your smoothness; it'll tax you proprioceptors; you'll relax earlier; you'll be more empathetic with your car and you might save a serious accident, and expensive damage. You should never go to the Nurburgring for example without a session, because in the wet, the Ring as an absolute nightmare.
And with due respect to those reading this, when you done a little of the above, maybe you can come back on this board and give up less of the utter bollox that you normally find on here. It’s difficult enough to find the right words on here, let alone properly understand them.
And you know what? It’s real fun too. A real education that’s a good hoot.
Sorry, if this comes across as a bit of a rant, but driver education is appalling IMHO in the UK; fast driver education is even worse. Any 17 year old with the wherewithal can buy a 200 mph monster. Control it properly, do me a favour …
Most fast driving individuals seem to be relaxed about the fact that the first time they experience serious oversteer, they don't know what to do. Worse, they get frightened by it.
And the answer to the issue is so simple.
Go and practice on a skid pan.
There are a few dotted around the country side and slipping someone a ton to allow you, say three hours in a battered Cortina at 7.5 mph on a Saturday morning, is such an excellent thing to do.
Get used to what constitutes car control. Get used to the feeling of something that's gone over the edge of adhesion. Get used to living with something that's on the edge of adhesion. Get used to what balance is and the relationship between throttle and steering. Get used to the idea that you can momentarily lose adhesion at the rear to an advantage. Put a watch on your progress, get disciplined, understand what's going on.
The two important words here are practice and skid pan.
Professional piano players and tennis players will tell you what practice is. The world's finest do it.
It will do untold good to your confidence; it'll improve your laptime; it'll improve your smoothness; it'll tax you proprioceptors; you'll relax earlier; you'll be more empathetic with your car and you might save a serious accident, and expensive damage. You should never go to the Nurburgring for example without a session, because in the wet, the Ring as an absolute nightmare.
And with due respect to those reading this, when you done a little of the above, maybe you can come back on this board and give up less of the utter bollox that you normally find on here. It’s difficult enough to find the right words on here, let alone properly understand them.
And you know what? It’s real fun too. A real education that’s a good hoot.
Sorry, if this comes across as a bit of a rant, but driver education is appalling IMHO in the UK; fast driver education is even worse. Any 17 year old with the wherewithal can buy a 200 mph monster. Control it properly, do me a favour …
I see your point and learning to control oversteer is essential to any driver as a starting point for any track driving. Once you have adequate car control you must then master the very particular driving styles that Front, and rear wheel drive cars demand, as well as front engined and mid engined cars. Rear engined, rear wheel drive cars ie; 911's demand a very particular driving style, many experienced racing drivers new to them are completely baffled by them. I know some very well know drivers that just can't adapt their style to make the 911 work. It isn't that easy.
Steve R
ph123 said:
I'm always at a loss as to why track drivers and those who profess to be racing drivers, don't do the proper thing and apply themselves properly to the issue of car control.
Most fast driving individuals seem to be relaxed about the fact that the first time they experience serious oversteer, they don't know what to do. Worse, they get frightened by it.
And the answer to the issue is so simple.
Go and practice on a skid pan.
There are a few dotted around the country side and slipping someone a ton to allow you, say three hours in a battered Cortina at 7.5 mph on a Saturday morning, is such an excellent thing to do.
Get used to what constitutes car control. Get used to the feeling of something that's gone over the edge of adhesion. Get used to living with something that's on the edge of adhesion. Get used to what balance is and the relationship between throttle and steering. Get used to the idea that you can momentarily lose adhesion at the rear to an advantage. Put a watch on your progress, get disciplined, understand what's going on.
The two important words here are practice and skid pan.
Professional piano players and tennis players will tell you what practice is. The world's finest do it.
It will do untold good to your confidence; it'll improve your laptime; it'll improve your smoothness; it'll tax you proprioceptors; you'll relax earlier; you'll be more empathetic with your car and you might save a serious accident, and expensive damage. You should never go to the Nurburgring for example without a session, because in the wet, the Ring as an absolute nightmare.
And with due respect to those reading this, when you done a little of the above, maybe you can come back on this board and give up less of the utter bollox that you normally find on here. It’s difficult enough to find the right words on here, let alone properly understand them.
And you know what? It’s real fun too. A real education that’s a good hoot.
Sorry, if this comes across as a bit of a rant, but driver education is appalling IMHO in the UK; fast driver education is even worse. Any 17 year old with the wherewithal can buy a 200 mph monster. Control it properly, do me a favour …
Most fast driving individuals seem to be relaxed about the fact that the first time they experience serious oversteer, they don't know what to do. Worse, they get frightened by it.
And the answer to the issue is so simple.
Go and practice on a skid pan.
There are a few dotted around the country side and slipping someone a ton to allow you, say three hours in a battered Cortina at 7.5 mph on a Saturday morning, is such an excellent thing to do.
Get used to what constitutes car control. Get used to the feeling of something that's gone over the edge of adhesion. Get used to living with something that's on the edge of adhesion. Get used to what balance is and the relationship between throttle and steering. Get used to the idea that you can momentarily lose adhesion at the rear to an advantage. Put a watch on your progress, get disciplined, understand what's going on.
The two important words here are practice and skid pan.
Professional piano players and tennis players will tell you what practice is. The world's finest do it.
It will do untold good to your confidence; it'll improve your laptime; it'll improve your smoothness; it'll tax you proprioceptors; you'll relax earlier; you'll be more empathetic with your car and you might save a serious accident, and expensive damage. You should never go to the Nurburgring for example without a session, because in the wet, the Ring as an absolute nightmare.
And with due respect to those reading this, when you done a little of the above, maybe you can come back on this board and give up less of the utter bollox that you normally find on here. It’s difficult enough to find the right words on here, let alone properly understand them.
And you know what? It’s real fun too. A real education that’s a good hoot.
Sorry, if this comes across as a bit of a rant, but driver education is appalling IMHO in the UK; fast driver education is even worse. Any 17 year old with the wherewithal can buy a 200 mph monster. Control it properly, do me a favour …
Its finding one with a RWD car thats tricky, and the trolley jobbies aren't really much cop. You are right though, its all about wheel time.
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