Driving tip for Porsche 911`s

[ph123]

- SR: I see your point and learning to control oversteer is essential to any driver as a starting point for any track driving.

Actually Steve, with respect, the starting point is well before that. IMHO what you put in and what you get out will be governed by your attitude toward the whole picture; how you 'address' the car, your preparation, the given situation.
Oversteer is just a small part of a fabulous modern art.
However, as I guess this thread is about 911 track driving tips and I'd rather see attention paid to a lot of other priorities before majoring on the 'yahoo' factor of oversteer. Oversteer is a small step away from a biggy; how did we get into this tricky situation in the first place? What didn't we see and why?

[roygarth]

ph123 said:

There are a few dotted around the country side and slipping someone a ton to allow you, say three hours in a battered Cortina at 7.5 mph on a Saturday morning, is such an excellent thing to do.

Anyone know nearest to Norfolk?

[steve rance]

ph123 said:

- SR: I see your point and learning to control oversteer is essential to any driver as a starting point for any track driving.

Actually Steve, with respect, the starting point is well before that. IMHO what you put in and what you get out will be governed by your attitude toward the whole picture; how you 'address' the car, your preparation, the given situation.
Oversteer is just a small part of a fabulous modern art.
However, as I guess this thread is about 911 track driving tips and I'd rather see attention paid to a lot of other priorities before majoring on the 'yahoo' factor of oversteer. Oversteer is a small step away from a biggy; how did we get into this tricky situation in the first place? What didn't we see and why?

I see your point, but If I'm asked by a driver specifically how to drive a 911, I make the assumption that he has a proficient understanding of understeer and oversteer and the ability to control both. In short, I make the assumption that he already knows what he is doing behind the wheel. I dont see it as my job to teach him to drive, just to drive 911's. If a driver comes to a 911 and decides to track it without any of the skills neccessary before hand, he does it at his peril and to those around him.

I sense from your reply that you regard driving as an art form. If this is the case, I fully agree. A skilled driver is an artist, and like all great artists has served many years practicing and honing his or her skills. There is no short cut to being a great artist and certainly no short cut to being a great driver. It takes a lot of time and effort. Having instructed racing driving as a profession before, I can say with experience that the average pupil had extremely low driving skills. From this point of view, your are correct. To learn to drive a 911, first you need to learn to drive properly and prepare your vehicle properly, and that is a long road..

Do you agree?

Steve R

[framps]

All interesting comments here guys but I think there's a difference between the track and the road and 90% of the people here will be driving their porkers on the road.. I've heard you can have fast car driving tuition from ex-policemen on how to read the road (don't know where they teach you though)

From memory there are things like..

noticing if the bins are out so hence being aware that round the next bend may be a bin lorry
don't take the racing line on a bend as it will put you out onto the wrong side of the road on exit, I think they said take a more curved line (??)
when over taking, get onto the wrong side of the road earlier, so you have a clear view, then power on past rather than sit tight on the slower car's bumper

Edited by framps on Thursday 7th September 11:19

[ph123]

Yes I broadly agree Steve. Absolutely. Maybe worth adding I also think it’s enormous fun; and practice makes perfect or more literally, practice makes it an unthinking natural response. To practice slipping and sliding and then add the stopwatch dimension is such fun.
I think your ‘assumptions’ maybe a tad unsafe taken cold; see my comment about a supercar driving 17 year old could arrive on the doorstep saying yes I know what oversteer and understeer means, but does he really, or do people reading this really understand?
I’m sure that I maybe taking you too literally and you would indeed check a driver’s experience in some detail before assuming anything. But I make the point that having a few moments on the local roundabout in the wet isn’t the qualification we would be looking for if you asked the question ‘Do you know what/have you experienced what oversteer is?’ or indeed as Henry says in his opening ‘what do I do in a 911 when the back steps out?’ and thought you had a worthwhile answer upon which you could offer beneficial advice TO THAT DRIVER.

Aren’t there skidpans at Snetterton?

PS You won't find a better tutor than Bernard Aubrey. Absolutely invaluable stuff.

Edited by ph123 on Thursday 7th September 11:33

[housemaster]

I was lucky enough to spend some time in a 997 on the MIRA skid pan a couple of weeks ago and found it great fun. They have a large circle, which has 4 different surfaces to mimick different conditions and a huge sprinkler system to make it all nice and wet. I would advise anyone who gets the opportunity to utilise this to take advantage of the offer as it is well worth it. There is nothing better for practicing those oversteer and understeer situations and learning how to deal with them in a safe and secure way without worrying about 'others'.

It is all about practice.

[993rsr]

Skid pan at Snetterton has been closed for years. If you have'nt experienced/been taught car control on a basic level in a safe environment (say an airfield)when you do overstep the limit on a circuit there often is insufficient time/space for the less than skilled to sort it all out.

When I first started driving quickish cars I spent a lot of time with a then ROSPA Diamond Instructor Paul Ripley doing airfield based car control days. It was the perfect foundation for track work in that you have already formed a good skill set for car control oversteer/lift off oversteer/understeer/trail braking et.all where the worst that could happen was a spin and hitting a few cones.

[kiko]

steve rance said:

ph123 said:

- SR: I see your point and learning to control oversteer is essential to any driver as a starting point for any track driving.

Actually Steve, with respect, the starting point is well before that. IMHO what you put in and what you get out will be governed by your attitude toward the whole picture; how you 'address' the car, your preparation, the given situation.
Oversteer is just a small part of a fabulous modern art.
However, as I guess this thread is about 911 track driving tips and I'd rather see attention paid to a lot of other priorities before majoring on the 'yahoo' factor of oversteer. Oversteer is a small step away from a biggy; how did we get into this tricky situation in the first place? What didn't we see and why?

I see your point, but If I'm asked by a driver specifically how to drive a 911, I make the assumption that he has a proficient understanding of understeer and oversteer and the ability to control both. In short, I make the assumption that he already knows what he is doing behind the wheel. I dont see it as my job to teach him to drive, just to drive 911's. If a driver comes to a 911 and decides to track it without any of the skills neccessary before hand, he does it at his peril and to those around him.

I sense from your reply that you regard driving as an art form. If this is the case, I fully agree. A skilled driver is an artist, and like all great artists has served many years practicing and honing his or her skills. There is no short cut to being a great artist and certainly no short cut to being a great driver. It takes a lot of time and effort. Having instructed racing driving as a profession before, I can say with experience that the average pupil had extremely low driving skills. From this point of view, your are correct. To learn to drive a 911, first you need to learn to drive properly and prepare your vehicle properly, and that is a long road..

Do you agree?

Steve R

I can certainly agree with that. I'm a part-time racing driver and I've raced sucessfully in "Cup" cars (all cars are the same and supplied by the organization)in both FWD and RWD cars so no excuses here, after this I'd be using false modesty if I didn't consider myself an experienced driver BUT even so the truth is that once I got in touch with 911's there were a couple of "tricks" that I needed to change in my driving to drive a 911 fast on the track.

[ph123]

The wonderful thing about Porsches, particularly the track biased models, is that if you drive them as they are built, cleanly and economically, avoid waving them about with unnecessary movement, they are gloriously set up; no fat really.

Makes one suspicious of any chat about 'oversteer' and such. How do you come to be doing that?

[steve rance]

ph123 said:

The wonderful thing about Porsches, particularly the track biased models, is that if you drive them as they are built, cleanly and economically, avoid waving them about with unnecessary movement, they are gloriously set up; no fat really.

Makes one suspicious of any chat about 'oversteer' and such. How do you come to be doing that?

An occasional very small trace on the exit is ok depending on the corner or on an off camber apex like clearways, but after turn in or at apex is either driving or set up error.

[porsche4life]

IMHO - Anyone driving a turbo Porsche better learn overstear control PDQ.

Anyway - car control opens up a whole new area to grow and learn, i think you really do have to master both understeer management and oversteer to drive the car at its maximum potential.

So all the advice i think is beneficial and enables drivers to try out different techniques.

Apparently my driving style is probably the worst for a heavy turbo 911 - but i have fun and rarely leave the tarmac... when i do its nearly always going in too fast or having my line compromised by overtaking to late before the next corner.

My only advice would be to practice and get the technique into the base of the brain where its intuative, this takes many hours, there is no other way.

Be prepared to go off and keep thinking where you want to go even when you know there is no more tarmac.

[ph123]

“Apparently my driving style is probably the worst for a heavy turbo 911 - but I have fun and rarely leave the tarmac... when I do its nearly always going in too fast or having my line compromised by overtaking to late before the next corner.

My only advice would be to practice and get the technique into the base of the brain where it’s intuitive, this takes many hours, there is no other way.

Be prepared to go off and keep thinking where you want to go even when you know there is no more tarmac.”


Sorry P4L, don’t take this too personally, but I fundamentally disagree with the approach ‘my line compromised…be prepared to go off’ as this is a danger to other drivers and goes through likely inconvenience through expensive damage to personal injury. Likewise, occasionally you read ‘how will I know where the limits are if I don’t have the odd spin’.

These are seriously high risk strategies which endanger other cars and well being of people, and easy enough to avoid. Certainly as in most walks of life, championship winners and good managers push the boundaries by building upon good technique and consistently high performance over a period of time, but without making serious mistakes.

Because the consequences of those mistakes, take such a long time to repair, so disappointing and potentially expensive. Not to mention disrespectful of other people’s enjoyment and commitment.

Work up to the limits gradually. Do not enter a corner too fast (because you’ve overtaken and put yourself off line, take responsibility – you ed up) and expect to carry the same speed as normal through the corner; that is plain stupid. If you are off line, you are going to take the corner at a compromised speed but it’s so unlikely the ‘competitor’ that put you off line is going to get back at you in any case. If he is, well you’d better box a little cleverer next time, maybe ‘spoil’ his ambition by slowing sufficiently to place your car where he cannot take advantage.

Yes, and then practice the right stuff till they become second nature, that I do applaud. But from the word ‘go’, do not ‘be prepared to go off’. That’s not addressing the situation correctly IMHO.

Same applies to fast road driving. If other drivers have to brake or change direction because you’ve bullied them, then that’s downright bad driving. Good driving I would interpret as slipping down the road quicker than everyone else without anyone ever knowing you were there. Certainly in a Porsche, with your reserves of adhesion and power available, you should be able to dip into this reserve, use it intelligently and … disappear out the way.

Sorry, to continue this long post, but I’d like to make reference to the difference to ‘slipping’ and ‘sliding’ in terms of oversteer. Generally, having a technique where you can get the car turned to face the new direction sooner, allowing you to use more power earlier, is useful. But ‘sliding’ the rear wheels under power is extreme and unless you’re talking about very low speed tight corners, is, so track data recorders show us, not likely to result in a quicker exit (Great fun though!). After a few laps of that treatment, the amount of grip available from overheated tyres will slow you down. (This is why I was never so impressed by Stefan Roser’s laps of the Ring in the Yellow RUF Porsche. Once the rear tyres were ed, there was no grip from them in any case. Just showmanship. Neither a good set up or an optimum lap time.)

But oversteer using the ‘slip’ of the tyres, getting you turned a little earlier - really tasty, very fast and retains control. Much the best idea IMHO.

[porsche4life]

123 - I applaud your perfect world attitude to driving and racing.

Sadly i ( and i suspect a few others) live in another world of

1. Varying conditions (oil, soil, gravel, antifreeze etc etc)
2. Changes in cars behaviour (damping chareteristics, power delivery, braking performance)
3. Learning by trial and error

This means you really have to learn car control over the limit, its the reality of life.

BTW, i am not referring to the road. Sliding a car on the road is illegal in the UK and i would never advocate that !

Final word - If you have not visited the grass at Bedford you are not trying hard enough.

[Pugsey]

porsche4life said:

123 - I applaud your perfect world attitude to driving and racing.

Sadly i ( and i suspect a few others) live in another world of

1. Varying conditions (oil, soil, gravel, antifreeze etc etc)
2. Changes in cars behaviour (damping chareteristics, power delivery, braking performance)
3. Learning by trial and error

This means you really have to learn car control over the limit, its the reality of life.

BTW, i am not referring to the road. Sliding a car on the road is illegal in the UK and i would never advocate that !

Final word - If you have not visited the grass at Bedford you are not trying hard enough.

Tend to agree with 123 and p4l (if that's possible!) - if you visit the grass at Bedford either your optimism exceeded abilities or you made a mistake. Bar a mechanical failure there can be no other reason. As long as you're honest with yourself about which it was then that's fine and no harm done - hopefully!

[ph123]

I enjoy your inputs too P4L. Respect.
But if you are going to live on the edge successfully – you need precision and discipline.
You can’t dumb that down by getting away with grassy moments; nor allowing any on-lookers into thinking ‘that’s OK then’.
It isn’t.

[Pugsey]

ph123 said:

I enjoy your inputs too P4L. Respect.
But if you are going to live on the edge successfully – you need precision and discipline.
You can’t dumb that down by getting away with grassy moments; nor allowing any on-lookers into thinking ‘that’s OK then’.
It isn’t.

Sorry to butt in> Although I do see where you're coming from I doubt that there's one top notch driver out there who hasn't 'taken the scenic route' a few times on the way to perfection. Your goodself included?

[timmo]

I was told at Bedford .. If your not spinning you are not
seeing the cars or your own true capabilities

tim

[ph123]

Thanks Guys -.
I completely concede we all make the odd mistake, sure and get on the grass, yep.
But IMHO it’s not the best way to learn; it’s an ‘addressing’ problem. If you address your driving ambitions on the basis of overstepping the mark continually, then more than likely damage will be done, and unnecessary expense, wear and tear etc. The mind set is to cock.
Again, I completely concede Bedford is a great place to learn because it is a relatively safe place if you do lose control. But IMHO again, it’s too ‘coarse’ a way to learn, if the only way to learn is by overdriving. But otherwise, see my post above, consistent disciplined precision – just like a Porsche.
And please don’t spin in front of me and force me into hitting you or the wall, or spoil the session because you’re in the kitty litter. I would be cross.
And use that skid pan FIRST!

[Heli Coil]

The original post on this is old,but the advice is sound. Henry is a motor man. who is he?
I taught my son the very same.its a pleasure to read, sound advice given freely.and it will save your LIFE when you are a bit naughty in your Porsche.We used to call the old 911 a tractor because you always ended up in a field.Well the others did not me.

[aceparts_com]

For me personally, learning to drive my turbo fast up to and beyond the limit is the highlight of owning this amazing car.
Without all the tuition and spinning fun ownership pleasure would probably have fizzled after the first OPC service.

I understand what P4L is saying as I get overtaken by him on a regular basis, even if that means him using the grass

Edited by aceparts_com on Friday 8th September 22:01