price pattern: 996 gt3 to follow 993rs and 964rs

[erics]

being a former 964rs owner and looking closely at 996 gt3s.
I am wondering.
I really feel like both mk1 and mk2 996 gt3 offer astonishing value for money at the moment.
Particularly when compared to 100k 993rs and 75k 964rs.

Will they reach 'iconic' status?

I think they could for being the last porsches with no electronic aids.

Last pure hardcore porsches.

The 964rs started to 'explode' in value as they were aircooled porsches. But the reall 'push-up' came when Richard Meaden from Evo bought one and soon after after Walter Rhorl bought one for his personal use too.
Germans went mental price-wise.

My view is that 996 gt3s are a 'buy' here.

Edited by erics on Sunday 27th September 10:58

[TGJR]

I agree in principal with your thoughts and the GT3 certainly has the ingredients to be a future classic. What might put the spanner in the works for all potential future classics is if fuel prices and tax on high emitting cars go crazy!

Hopefully as mainstream cars move away from fossil fuels in years to come the diminishing reserves will last longer and prices will soften as demand shrinks.

[gttastic]

erics said:

being a former 964rs owner and looking closely at 996 gt3s.
I am wondering.
I really feel like both mk1 and mk2 996 gt3 offer astonishing value for money at the moment.
Particularly when compared to 100k 993rs and 75k 964rs.

Will they reach 'iconic' status?

I think they could for being the last porsches with no electronic aids.

Last pure hardcore porsches.

The 964rs started to 'explode' in value as they were aircooled porsches. But the reall 'push-up' came when Richard Meaden from Evo bought one and soon after after Walter Rhorl bought one for his personal use too.
Germans went mental price-wise.

My view is that 996 gt3s are a 'buy' here.

Edited by erics on Sunday 27th September 10:58

Does anyone think that the 996 GT3/RS may not reach the same iconic status and therefore high future prices simply because they are water cooled and not air cooled? Otherwise, the 996RS has to appreciate from current levels at some point just as its predecessors 964RS & 993RS have done.

The total production numbers built of GT3 variants exceeds the 964RS & 993RS as far as I am aware which may mean that it won't reach the dizzy heights of its forebearers (although they weren't exactly mass produced were they?)

My feeling is that the 996GT3RS will become the most sought after (and prices will eventually reflect this), followed by the 996 GT3 Mk1, and finally the 996 GT3 Mk2. My reasoning for this is because the 996RS is an RS after all. Because the 996 GT3 Mk1 was the first production car to break the sub 8 minute Nurburgring lap time & because of its success in Motorsport. Not sure about the GT3 Mk2 credentials which is why I have placed it behind the other 2 variants.

What are other peoples views?

[PhilRS]

This has been debated a lot. My view is that the values of GT3s will never reach those of the 964 and 993RSs. A number of reasons:

1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche

GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?

[christer]

Have you ever driven a Mk1? I wouldn't call it a GT......slightly more refined than a 964RS but far stiffer chassis etc.

As an owner I have no interest in the future prices per se. I do try to buy well and cars with less depreciation but as an investment.....? No way

[DanH]

75k 964RS? In the owners dreams perhaps!

[drmark]

PhilRS said:

What is really special?

It is one of the very best Porsches on track - and if you haven't tried one, you should. Then you wouldn't need to ask.

Build was a bit iffy with the mk1 (despite its handbuilt moniker) because the early 996s were not up to 993 quality. The Mk2 is noticeably better.

My guess is that they will remain a relatively affordable icon and never reach the heights of their air cooled predecessors - buy they will continue to run rings around them dynamically .

[erics]

1. A said above, define 'many'. We are talking about a few thousand cars. Total 996 gt3s in all guises is what? 4,000 cars. Of which how many? 3,500 survive today? There were 1,000 993rs made and 2,200 964rs made. So i think it is very comparable.

2. Really? i had the 964rs and my 996 gt3 mk2 is no less special! On the contrary actually. I am sorry, they are no GTs. Go and drive one. You will see what i mean. I have never taken my gt3 on track, but DanH took me in his many times around Bedford. They are very-very special cars (i had 'regular' 911's as well).

3. Interior is relatively simple so there is little to go wrong. But i agree the 964s-993s had this 'carved through granit' feeling. The 996 gt3s are much easier to live with though. The quality of the drive-train is top quality on the 996 gt3s. Engine block of gt1 racers and nothing to do with regular 996s. In this respect they are also probably better than 997 gt3s who suffer from rms issues among other things.

4. 993rs is probably one of the most beautifull porsche ever made. The 964rs is very handsome and compact and classic 911 (for me personally, the most beautfull). But the gt3s look very purposefull and have a lot of road presence. I can always spot one in the traffic and get all excited when i see one. I am sure that a lot of people share my view on this here.

5. Porsche fans are usually very smart people who can see 'through' this kind of global ideas. They will be seen (if anything) as teh pinacle of the Wiedeking era.

What is iconic? The lack of electronic interaction between the driver and the road. The engine and gearbox combo is probably one of the best ever made. The looks (you may disagree here). Their presence on the race-car scene.
It is a light, small and simple car that is much easier to live with than 964-993rs.

EVO magazine made it one of its top 3 best drivers' cars ever. Whilst this may be a contentious issue, i still reckon that these guys know what they are talking about.
Richard Meaden bought his 964rs only weeks before the prices started to sky rocket.

PhilRS said:

This has been debated a lot. My view is that the values of GT3s will never reach those of the 964 and 993RSs. A number of reasons:

1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche

GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?

[9hellheaven]

I think the 996 GT3 etc will have a place In the "classic Icon" fold when the next great development comes along. Much like Air cooled to water cooled cemented the Air cooled models In the all time greats era, maybe battery power will make the water cooled more desirable.

[mrdemon]

The question is how many RS lightweight RHD uk cars were built

6 or 7 ish if that i forget.

[erics]

those at £65k are actually selling Dan.
In mainland Europe, 75-85k euros is the going rate for a clean 964rs.
With EURGBP at 0.91, £65-75k is about right.

DanH said:

75k 964RS? In the owners dreams perhaps!

[Paul Dishman]

mrdemon said:

The question is how many RS lightweight RHD uk cars were built

6 or 7 ish if that i forget.

There were 7 964RS Tourings made and about 50 964RS lightweights in RHD

[Redarress]

I bought a 993RS before the monster increases. When I have the spare cash I will look very closely at the 996GT3RS. Thet are both great driving cars. The fact that deprecation will probably not happen to them if you buy right is secondary to me.

[graeme36s]

PhilRS said:

This has been debated a lot. My view is that the values of GT3s will never reach those of the 964 and 993RSs. A number of reasons:

1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche

GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?

I have to agree with Phil. As competent as a 996 GT3 is in all its guises, build quality and build numbers will ensure that it will never reach iconic status. All of the air cooled RS lightweights IMO where never that far removed from the factory race cars as the 996GT3 is. More a token gesture than a reality. Plus for me anyway a very important part of the heritage line was lost with the dashboard design. From 64-98 you new you where driving a 911 with its familiar dash and adhock switches. From water cooled on for me it is just not a place I would choose to sit. I suppose form over function. You can't scew a water cooled rev counter to show max rpm at 12 o'clock. Not that I have ever bothered to. On another note two good mates took their 3.2 Carrera race car to the nurburgring for the 300 km race this weekend. First time there ever for both drivers. 120 cars on the grid and they won their class. Congratulations boys.

[sleep envy]

eric, you're doing me no favours

[Diesel130]

erics said:

being a former 964rs owner and looking closely at 996 gt3s.
I am wondering.

I am confused - I thought you already had a gt3?

erics said:

My view is that 996 gt3s are a 'buy' here.

Haven't you just put your's up for sale, the day of this posting??

[TGJR]

"So is the GT3 the definitive 911? In contemporary terms, the answer has to be yes"

Autocar 2003 road test verdict for the mk2 GT3. They also commented on cabin quality as a positive for the car.

[RC]

Logic and reason seems to have no place in determining whether a car will do well in the residual stakes or not. Supply and demand and all those great forces play some role but there is always something a little more abstract at work when it comes to a car (or anything else) reaching "iconic" status.

However, one gaulling truth is the fact that the car is question is a 996. And for that reason I don't think that it will ever reach iconic status. My opinion isn't based on experience of ownership etc and its merely a gut reaction...

[Henry-F]

graeme36s said:

All of the air cooled RS lightweights IMO where never that far removed from the factory race cars as the 996GT3 is. More a token gesture than a reality.

Graeme

What absolute rubbish !! I`m surprised a gentleman of your standing and knowledge would type such words.

The 996 GT3 is most definitely not just a re-badging exercise but a wholly different car in the line up. I can only assume you were looking at a GT3 kit car a-la Supersport / turbo of your era (although you were quite old even then ).

In years to come we will be saying "I remember when you could buy a GT3 for.......

Henry

[lowndes]

Have just gone from a 964RS to 996GT3 and though it's early days so far I prefer the GT3. That doesn't mean I think the prices will go up, just that I choose to spend my money on one in preference to an RS. Of course if everyone thought like me then the GT3 prices would go up and the RS down!