price pattern: 996 gt3 to follow 993rs and 964rs

[erics]

Diesel130, good spot and i am happy you raise it and i am happy to explain my position openly.

Regarding the point you raise: i meant looking closely at 996 gt3 *prices* (yes i do own a mk2, and yes i recently put it up for sale). I agree it lacked clarity.

I have had my 996 gt3 for a bit and my financial situation has evolved to a point where a 997 gt3 becomes a possibility.

You may believe it or not, but this post came in before my add (although i agree, closely in terms of timing).

If i was hoping to influence prices via a post on a forum, i' d be pretty foolish.

I am sorry if my writing misled you.

The reality is that i am genuinely interested to hear what people think.

And the recent EVO publication (among other things) got me thinking. As well as the way i sold my 964rs previously (read more below).

I am wondering if this is the right time to sell. Because these cars are *in my opinion* at the lowest level of their depreciation curve. Remember the 964rs' s went as low at £20k for a minter in the early 2000's.

I could well be wrong, but this is just a feeling.

A 996 gt3 or gt3rs is a very very special car, particularly because of this specific drivetrain that is way more inspiring than those in either in 993rs' s or 964 rs' s (imho again).

I sold my 964rs for £40k in 2007 and it was probably one of the nicest in Europe. It was also probably the worst time to sell! It had 40k km, black car it stunning condition, no roll cage. So i totally missed the train price-wise!
One like mine in Europe (it was a LHD) regularly sells for 80k euros.

Although i like the idea of a 997 gt3 because it is slightly more compliant on the road and i never get the chance to go to the track, i feel i could once again do the silly mistake of selling my car before prices start to get crazy.

The beauty of the 996 vs 997 gt3 is that the former is still totally analogue. No electronic aids.

For me personally, the 997 gt3 would be better because of the added comfort.

My current positioning could be totally wrong (that would not be the first time!), but i feel that the 997 gt3 and 996 gt3 prices could be converging. So I have not much to gain with the argument i defend if my idea of price evolution is right, i will loose a fair bit of money by selling the 6gt3 now and buying the 7gt3 now!

The purpose of my post is to figure out whether or not i could be doing yet another silly mistake by selling now. I did this once already..

As for the 996gt3rs, i agree with the others: it has even more potential. The only counter argument i would see to that is that it is less multi-usage than the regular gt3. Remember: 2.7 rs' s, 993 rs' s were great road cars too (may be less true for the 964rs).

Diesel130 said:

erics said:

being a former 964rs owner and looking closely at 996 gt3s.
I am wondering.

I am confused - I thought you already had a gt3?

erics said:

My view is that 996 gt3s are a 'buy' here.

Haven't you just put your's up for sale, the day of this posting??

[TGJR]

mr sagman said:

TGJR said:

Only time will tell (but I think GT3's in all guises will fair well in the market place).

For now, if you are lucky enough to have one just enjoy it. I took mine on the back roads to watch the PCGB championship at Croft yesterday and it was fantastic. Less than an hour after getting home I set out for another 2o minute run just on the way to putting it back in the garage

Hi thomas, hope your enjoying your new beast! How does it compare to your sagaris! A GT2 or a GT3 would probably be the only car that may prise me away from my sag in the future.

All the best
Ian.

Hi Ian, only had the GT3 a couple of weeks but absolutely loving it! It is the most exilerating Porsche I have driven (not driven a GT2) and has that same raw and 'alive' feeling that the Sag has. Well worth a try if you ever do fancy a change and according to a lot of the posts on this thread they are quite a good place to put your money if you find a nice one. Cheers.

[David Hype]

Cars are only really worth what people are prepared to pay for them.

If they are produced in limited numbers and they are very, very good, then thats why manufacturers produce them in small batches...They can charge a lot more for them.

The 996 GT3/RS is a very good car, so if I had to have a wager...

[rathur]

i probably have to agree to some extent with graeme, i own both gt3 mk1 and 964 RS, both super cool cars, both total keepers i hope, also you can live with the gt3 everyday but when you get in the 964 and you close the door with that 1980s real german engineering THUD and you cast your eyes over that timelessly cool dash...you cant help feeling like steve mcqueen in 1970 driving into le mans.

[ChrisW.]

The rarest GT3 is the MkI Clubsport of which there were 28 RHD cars in the UK.

They are a very different drive to the MkII and are much closer to the GT3RS --- of which there were around 120 RHD cars in the UK.

Although not as powerful, they are lighter and were manufactured at Weissach rather than on the Stuttgart line.

I own a 964RS N-GT (LHD), a 993RS (RHD) and a GT3 MkI Clubsport --- and the GT3 is in my view no less special.

All are regularly driven.

I have owned both a GT3 MII and a GT3RS, and prefer my Mk I CS. One of two in Zanzibar Red, the launch colour and totally yummy ...

Will the GT3 go up in value ? Well, the MkI's certainly won't go down from low £30k's !

[Diesel130]

Great! So, to summarise:-

RS's will go up in value.
6GT3 Mk I's will go up in value
6GT3 MK II's will come down in value, so I can afford one :-)

[chfs911]

The smart money is swapping out of the 64RS into the 96RS. No extra cash required except for new rads and gearbox and splitter and A/C and coil pack and carbon bonnet paint .............

In your dreams Eric!

[erics]

Charles? What in my dreams? That gt3's will go up?
Maybe...

Maybe we are all doomed and they will all go down when electric/nuclear/water powered cars invade the entire world.

Am off to buy a tesla roadster..........................

chfs911 said:

The smart money is swapping out of the 64RS into the 96RS. No extra cash required except for new rads and gearbox and splitter and A/C and coil pack and carbon bonnet paint .............

In your dreams Eric!

[chfs911]

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1207077.htm

Nice kettle if you must Eric. French owned too!

[erics]

Charles, i actually know a guy in France who raced these when they were new in the late 1980's, in the porsche cup. He still has his original car, and got it reg' d for the road! This was before the carrera cup etc... He was relatively famous in the Porsche circles at the time. Nowadays he races contemporary gt3 cups that do not even go on the road.

He actually offered to sell it (the 944 turbo cup) to me, before I bought the 64rs... I think he still has it. You reckon it is worth a bid?

chfs911 said:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1207077.htm

Nice kettle if you must Eric. French owned too!

[christer]

erics said:

The purpose of my post is to figure out whether or not i could be doing yet another silly mistake by selling now. I did this once already..

Please see my post about never buying for investment purposes, or allowing that side to sway your decision

[Craig]

Eric

Good luck with the sale - I would advise getting some new photos done though as the current ones are a bit dark.

I too am selling my GT3 as not had a chance to do any trackdays and finding it too hard road use only (I am getting soft in my old age!).

Still wishing I had kept the 964...

Craig

[DanH]

I love that people find GT3s too hardcore and sell them on as a result. That's what the GT3 is meant to be about and its a shame the 7 falls down on that criteria as it shows the dilution of the ethic behind the car graphically. Won't be long before its just a C2S with a cage and an engine that revs a bit higher.

[PhilRS]

After reading this thread, I still do not see the case for the iconic status of the GT3. Could someone spell it out clearly?

To be clear and to avoid unnecessary discussions, the GT3 is a great car, it is dynamically much better than the 964 and 993RS (and these were themselves much better than the 2.7RS).

Still, being better than predecessors does not make an icon (e.g. the Ferrari 430 Scuderia is much better than an F40, but the icon is the F40).

Coming back to the original question: What makes a GT3 an icon (if being an icon is an important factor of future values)?

graeme36s said:

PhilRS said:

This has been debated a lot. My view is that the values of GT3s will never reach those of the 964 and 993RSs. A number of reasons:

1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche

GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?

I have to agree with Phil. As competent as a 996 GT3 is in all its guises, build quality and build numbers will ensure that it will never reach iconic status. All of the air cooled RS lightweights IMO where never that far removed from the factory race cars as the 996GT3 is. More a token gesture than a reality. Plus for me anyway a very important part of the heritage line was lost with the dashboard design. From 64-98 you new you where driving a 911 with its familiar dash and adhock switches. From water cooled on for me it is just not a place I would choose to sit. I suppose form over function. You can't scew a water cooled rev counter to show max rpm at 12 o'clock. Not that I have ever bothered to.

Edited by PhilRS on Tuesday 29th September 13:01

[Craig]

DanH said:

I love that people find GT3s too hardcore and sell them on as a result. That's what the GT3 is meant to be about and its a shame the 7 falls down on that criteria as it shows the dilution of the ethic behind the car graphically. Won't be long before its just a C2S with a cage and an engine that revs a bit higher.

Surely if the car can do both track and road then it will appeal to a wider audience - hence Porsche making the 7GT3 more compliant on the road.

I'm not sure it makes it any less able on the track though as I'm sure lap times will testify.

The problem I have is that the 6GT3 is so firm that it isn't possible to get the power down easily on the cr*p roads in this country (unlike other cars I have owned/ still own). If I wanted a trackday only car I'd buy a Caterham...

Craig

[DanH]

That it is the road going derivative of the most raced and successful race car of all time?

PhilRS said:

After reading this thread, I still do not see the case for the iconic status of the GT3. Could someone spell it out clearly?

To be clear and to avoid unnecessary discussions, the GT3 is a great car, it is dynamically much better than the 964 and 993RS (and these were themselves much better than the 2.7RS).

Still, being better than predecessors does not make an icon (e.g. the Ferrari 430 Scuderia is much better than an F40, but the icon is the F40).

Coming back to the original question: What makes a GT3 an icon (if being an icon is an important factor of future values)?

graeme36s said:

PhilRS said:

This has been debated a lot. My view is that the values of GT3s will never reach those of the 964 and 993RSs. A number of reasons:

1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche

GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?

I have to agree with Phil. As competent as a 996 GT3 is in all its guises, build quality and build numbers will ensure that it will never reach iconic status. All of the air cooled RS lightweights IMO where never that far removed from the factory race cars as the 996GT3 is. More a token gesture than a reality. Plus for me anyway a very important part of the heritage line was lost with the dashboard design. From 64-98 you new you where driving a 911 with its familiar dash and adhock switches. From water cooled on for me it is just not a place I would choose to sit. I suppose form over function. You can't scew a water cooled rev counter to show max rpm at 12 o'clock. Not that I have ever bothered to.

Edited by PhilRS on Tuesday 29th September 13:01

[DanH]

Craig said:

DanH said:

I love that people find GT3s too hardcore and sell them on as a result. That's what the GT3 is meant to be about and its a shame the 7 falls down on that criteria as it shows the dilution of the ethic behind the car graphically. Won't be long before its just a C2S with a cage and an engine that revs a bit higher.

Surely if the car can do both track and road then it will appeal to a wider audience - hence Porsche making the 7GT3 more compliant on the road.

I'm not sure it makes it any less able on the track though as I'm sure lap times will testify.

The problem I have is that the 6GT3 is so firm that it isn't possible to get the power down easily on the cr*p roads in this country (unlike other cars I have owned/ still own). If I wanted a trackday only car I'd buy a Caterham...

Craig

The 7GT3 would be quicker on track if it wasn't compromised for the road going softies

6GT3 is perfectly useable on the road, just very demanding. Surely how it should be?

[Steve Rance]

The 996 GT3's were very close road going versions of the 996 cup car sharing the same chasis and drive train which is a far more focussed track drive train than the previous Rs cars before it which were essentially road engines with very or no minor modifications. The RS version has suspension upgrades that were higher in specification than the cup car. These were designed to be upgrades to make the RSR more competitve in FIA GT. In terms of driving experience, the Gt3 - especially the RS are very close to the 996 cup car. The only real diffence is weight. They subsiquently have an edgy feel to them as one would expect being essentially race cars dummed down for the road with 'numpty' set ups as a factory default which were understandibly set for inexperienced drivers. Like the 996 Cup car, they are a difficult car to drive at 10/10ths but reward skilled piloting with stunning performance. My take on it is that they represent the last of the truly extreme 911 drivers cars in that they do not benefit from any electrical driver aids. Having driven the 964RS, 964 cup,993 cup and 996 cup,my thoughts are that the GT3 is slightly less involving at low speeds than the 964 and 993 Rs's but equally involving at medium to high speeds. It is far less forgiving than the older cars but has a lot more power and thats the rub I think. Porsche realised that to take the GT3 concept forward it would need electronic aids and become more accessable. Enter the 997 GT3 which is a fantasticly competant car but a car that does not reward. As a dynamic driving machine the 996 GT3 is far closer to the 993 and 964 Rs's that went before it than the 997 GT3. I feel a sense of occasion whenever I drive one as I do when I drive RS's of earlier years.

I think that time tends to bring objectivity when comparing anything and 911's are no different. Some people are only just starting to 'get' the 996GT3 but as time rolls on I have no doubt that it be be Iconic

[christer]

PhilRS said:

After reading this thread, I still do not see the case for the iconic status of the GT3. Could someone spell it out clearly?

I guess we would also need to really look at why the other models you mentioned became "icons" and what an "icon" really is? If we deal with price first as per the OP's question then price is ALWAYS determined by supply and demand. The fact that there were around 1800 Mk1's and IIRC 2200 Mk2's would suggest to me that the supply is rather restricted and will become more so. The demand side is what we know nothing about in terms of the future. The 964RS is not an Icon in my mind - it is the first model 911 in some years which has the RS tag. It is also rather good to drive on track. There are relatively few of them around, especially at this sort of age. The demand is what is driving the price of these, I don't think it can be described as an Icon at this stage (but as already mentioned, this is subject to massive interpretation). What kicked off the demand for 964RS's - was it down to the looks, the age, the focussed nature, some celebrity/ex racing driver started pumping the model, or something else...? Who is to say that Rohrl didn't just buy the car because he saw an investment opportunity, not because he thought it was any good? With regards to the 1973 RS, I have equally little idea in reality why that has become so expensive, except the rarity and demand is high for whatever reason.

We cannot be subjective when trying to analyse this. I don't know what would be special enough for the 996GT3 to appreciate considerably and become an "icon" (whatever that means) but I do know that there are not *that* many about and it also has in spades some of the qualities that the other "icons" have - so who knows? Whether one currently likes the look of the 996GT3 or not is pretty irrelevant - the 1973RS is not the prettiest car ever (ah subjectivity again) but something else drives the demand. Those factors are unknown now, let alone in 15 years time. I think there is some potential in Henry F's post about racing series etc. but there are many other factors that drives demand

I predict that if we wait and see then we will know

Edited by christer on Tuesday 29th September 13:39

[fergus]

Craig said:

If I wanted a trackday only car I'd buy a Caterham...

Which is often quicker than a GT3 with a 1/10 of the consumable/running costs....