price pattern: 996 gt3 to follow 993rs and 964rs
Discussion
PhilRS said:
After reading this thread, I still do not see the case for the iconic status of the GT3. Could someone spell it out clearly?
To be clear and to avoid unnecessary discussions, the GT3 is a great car, it is dynamically much better than the 964 and 993RS (and these were themselves much better than the 2.7RS).
Still, being better than predecessors does not make an icon (e.g. the Ferrari 430 Scuderia is much better than an F40, but the icon is the F40).
Coming back to the original question: What makes a GT3 an icon (if being an icon is an important factor of future values)?
I don't think "icons" are born icons. Instead it's a status they have bestowed upon them by us, the fans, over time. As the motor industry progresses the various technologies they invest in, we the cognoscenti, yearn for more simple times before some of the elements we love got diluted by stuff we're not interested in. This yearning comes with time. And its this reason that that something like an F430 Scuderia isn't yet an icon.To be clear and to avoid unnecessary discussions, the GT3 is a great car, it is dynamically much better than the 964 and 993RS (and these were themselves much better than the 2.7RS).
Still, being better than predecessors does not make an icon (e.g. the Ferrari 430 Scuderia is much better than an F40, but the icon is the F40).
Coming back to the original question: What makes a GT3 an icon (if being an icon is an important factor of future values)?
Age of course doesn't make all cars into icons. I see the ones that stand a chance as becoming them as those that have a very specific focus and do one particular thing very well. This is even more so when it's within the context of a particular brand that has a particularly fanatical following.
And it's this reason too that I believe the 996 GT3 RS is on the cusp of achieving it. The car is I think we all agree, exceptionally highly accomplished. It was made in small numbers, so supply is very low, meaning demand doesn't need to be that high for prices to increase significantly. It's got the right badges - both "Porsche" and of course "RS". And it's got race heritage and pedigree.
The only thing I see there being against it is that a lot the Porsche fan base still loves (you very definitely included included Phil), are the air cooled engines. So that's a segment of the market that it will struggle to win the hearts of. However I believe that the Porsche fan base is broad enough that there are still plenty of people who'll want one in the future.
I've focused on the 996 GT3 RS above, as I see this as the pinnacle halo model. I believe this will lead the increase, with the "regular" GT3s benefiting from this. Although I'd put all the same argument forward for the regular GT3 too though if the RS didn't exist - just a little more diluted.
fergus said:
Craig said:
If I wanted a trackday only car I'd buy a Caterham...
Which is often quicker than a GT3 
with a 1/10 of the consumable/running costs....The memory of the lap itself will last years, it was bloody marvelous.
Steve Rance said:
fergus said:
Craig said:
If I wanted a trackday only car I'd buy a Caterham...
Which is often quicker than a GT3 with a 1/10 of the consumable/running costs....The point was made by someone else re the practicalies/choice of having a caterham as a track only toy. No one is having a dig at Stutgart's finest
Indeed when I get paid in the new year, I'll probably be on the lookout for a '96RS myself.....The other great party piece of a GT3 is you can drive it all the way to Spa, lap at 10/10ths and then drive it home and it will do this reliably & comfortably whilst still offering up a superb performance. Driving to Spa in a caterham or radical is an entirely different proposition.
The only real downside to the GT3 is the cost of entry, and more painfully of ongoing maintenance if you track them.
The only real downside to the GT3 is the cost of entry, and more painfully of ongoing maintenance if you track them.
Steve Rance said:
fergus said:
Craig said:
If I wanted a trackday only car I'd buy a Caterham...
Which is often quicker than a GT3 with a 1/10 of the consumable/running costs....The memory of the lap itself will last years, it was bloody marvelous.
but i would add that its not necessarily for everyone
a friend was chatting to the Stig the other day who was saying how much he hates racing 911's.. that dynamic is just not his cup of tea
DanH said:
jackal said:
very nicely put steve
but i would add that its not necessarily for everyone
a friend was chatting to the Stig the other day who was saying how much he hates racing 911's.. that dynamic is just not his cup of tea
Explains his crap laptimes in 911s on top gear then but i would add that its not necessarily for everyone
a friend was chatting to the Stig the other day who was saying how much he hates racing 911's.. that dynamic is just not his cup of tea
but he hates driving 911's thats for sure
The 996 GT3 Mk1 is/will be an icon. The last homologation special (FIA GT Series) hand built by Weissach, 1st ever production car to lap Nurburgring in less than 8 minutes, 3rd in Evo's 100 greatest driver's cars of all time and generally loved by all journos who've ever driven it. Genuine race specificaton componentry, and the chassis IS compliant yet razor sharp. Countless forum entries of owners who cannot praise their GT3 enough.. what more do you need as evidence of a future icon!!!
its only evo that bang on about the mk1 though isn't it ? how it has more 'evoness' around the brecon beacons (whatever that means.. probably a sense of 'aliveness' which in more specific language is something like too much camber and too little castor for the public road)
IIRC, everyone else says that the mk2 is the better car
IIRC, everyone else says that the mk2 is the better car
996Weissach said:
The 996 GT3 Mk1 is/will be an icon. The last homologation special (FIA GT Series) hand built by Weissach, 1st ever production car to lap Nurburgring in less than 8 minutes, 3rd in Evo's 100 greatest driver's cars of all time and generally loved by all journos who've ever driven it. Genuine race specificaton componentry, and the chassis IS compliant yet razor sharp. Countless forum entries of owners who cannot praise their GT3 enough.. what more do you need as evidence of a future icon!!!
+1 and with a bullet proof engine reving around to 8000rpm. What more can you ask for!.PhilRS said:
This has been debated a lot. My view is that the values of GT3s will never reach those of the 964 and 993RSs. A number of reasons:
1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche
GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?
2. Have you ever read the specification sheet of a GT3? It is one of the finest engines ever used in a road car, and as for sound, you obviously haven't heard one. And the drive itself incredibly special.1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche
GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?
3. What is so-so? The structure is far stiffer and longer lasting, the suspension superior and stronger, the engine is race-derived (unlike the former RS models which are in common with standard production engines). Oh, beg your pardon, you were talking about the materials on the dashboard and not about the important parts that make the GT3 an absolutely surperb creation, or any other brilliant car for that matter.
4. Eh? The 993 is itself a departure from the classic slab-sided 911 look. Never understood this argument.
5. No they won't. That is in your imagination! A brilliant car is a brilliant car.
It really is getting dull reading this uninformed 'air-cooled is better stuff'. Why is it the slagging never goes the other way?
996Weissach said:
PhilRS said:
This has been debated a lot. My view is that the values of GT3s will never reach those of the 964 and 993RSs. A number of reasons:
1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche
GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?
2. Have you ever read the specification sheet of a GT3? It is one of the finest engines ever used in a road car, and as for sound, you obviously haven't heard one. And the drive itself incredibly special.1. Many were produced under the same label (same happened to the race cars)
2. They are far less special then the air-cooled RSs, being more GTs than lightweights
3. Build quality was so-so.
4. The style of the bodywork is certainly more contentious amongst 911 lovers than the former models
5. They will be associated with the Wiedekin era of mass production and diversification of Porsche
GT3s represent incredible value for money, for sure, but I doubt that they will become iconic cars. What is iconic about them? What is really special?
3. What is so-so? The structure is far stiffer and longer lasting, the suspension superior and stronger, the engine is race-derived (unlike the former RS models which are in common with standard production engines). Oh, beg your pardon, you were talking about the materials on the dashboard and not about the important parts that make the GT3 an absolutely surperb creation, or any other brilliant car for that matter.
4. Eh? The 993 is itself a departure from the classic slab-sided 911 look. Never understood this argument.
5. No they won't. That is in your imagination! A brilliant car is a brilliant car.
It really is getting dull reading this uninformed 'air-cooled is better stuff'. Why is it the slagging never goes the other way?
Worth sticking a 6RS in the garage just in case then. Can't see why they are £20K more than a mk2 unless the RS badge is having the iconic effect already.
A GT3 mk1 with Alcons and Manthy treatment is looking like good value as a track toy as soon the 64RS and Cups will be 6 figures and not worth the risk. The M003s are there already in Europe.
How many original73 RS do you see on track days?
So the time is near where the track boys will have to consider moving to the dark side.
We can then shave off the beards and store the tractor in the garage for a rainy day.
Make the most of it whilst there are still some trackdays and petrol.
I had a test drive in a Mk1 for a week and only the gearbox rebuilds put me off! It had 3 in a short period of time to replace the brass syncros. Why they did not do all of them at once I do not know.
If they drop into the 20s I will consider swapping my CS for one.
968CS!
A GT3 mk1 with Alcons and Manthy treatment is looking like good value as a track toy as soon the 64RS and Cups will be 6 figures and not worth the risk. The M003s are there already in Europe.
How many original73 RS do you see on track days?
So the time is near where the track boys will have to consider moving to the dark side.
We can then shave off the beards and store the tractor in the garage for a rainy day.
Make the most of it whilst there are still some trackdays and petrol.
I had a test drive in a Mk1 for a week and only the gearbox rebuilds put me off! It had 3 in a short period of time to replace the brass syncros. Why they did not do all of them at once I do not know.
If they drop into the 20s I will consider swapping my CS for one.
968CS!
I was told 'off the record' that the 996RS was the only 911 that Porsche actually sold at a net loss due to the increased build costs over the standard car and the short production run. On saying that I think that Mk1 and MK2 GT3's are incredibly good value at the moment. I have no doubt that because of this a few will fall into the hands of owners that will not be able to afford to run them properly which will make cars with good provenance much more sought after in years to come.
Just seen Gungho's GT3 has sold again on PHs. Seller comments that the gearbox has had another 2nd gear syncro replaced. That's 4 rebuilds in 40K miles plus another 2 rads. Jason replaced these when he had the car 2 years ago and fitted Cup grills.
What with the coil packs going too, I see that I was right to avoid the GT3 in this case.
Maintenance must be significantly more than the 64 and 93 cars.
What with the coil packs going too, I see that I was right to avoid the GT3 in this case.
Maintenance must be significantly more than the 64 and 93 cars.
Not sure why "iconic" status matters ? If I want my GT3 to be "iconic" like the 964 RS and 993 RS, it means I will have to wait 10-15 years to see it happen. I am not interested to keep my GT3 that long and at the rate of 15-20 track days a year, it may be "iconic" in 15 years, but I'd rather have a new, faster 911 at that time. Sure a 964 RS is iconic - I still hope to buy one one day - but compared to a modern 911 it feels agricultural to me with a redline almost 2000 revs below that of a gt3. I have had a few aircooled 911s and liked them in their time but they are classics now. I couldn't care less what others think of my car, whether it is iconic or not, I just don't like to be overtaken.
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