911 GT3 R Hybrid
Discussion
kingb said:
Im not totally sure i want a heavy fly wheel spinning at 40,000rpm sitting next to me instead of a passenger seat. Sounds scary. Im sure ive seen pictures of where someone has attempted t0 lighten there flywheel which has just resulted in it coming loose and shooting straight through the bonnet.
nice to try something new but sounds scary to me
It's not that scary. I sell centrifuges that spin at 100,000 RPM, and are safe with just 30 cm maximum movement in the event of a total failure. It would be quite easy to reduce this distance by bolting the machine to the floor - and in the porker, the flywheel assembly will be very firmly fixed to the car. Obviously flywheels in engines aren't protected by guard rings, as they only have the engine bay to damage - anything in the passenger area will no doubt have centrifuge style guard rings round it to safeguard the driver.nice to try something new but sounds scary to me
It also doesn't have to weigh all that much - at just 4,800 RPM, with a radius of 10 centimetres, a 750 gram bit of metal has a weight of 3 tonnes. Presuming the flywheel is about the size of a dinner plate (conservative), it would have a radius of 15cm. If it had the majority of it's mass at a radius of 10-15 cm, then if had a mass of just 15kg, you've got 60 tonnes rotating. It is ages since I did physics, but I bet a cleverer man could tell you the rough need of kinetic energy to offer 120 kW for 8 seconds - at 40k RPM, I'm guessing it's not as scarily high as you'd think!
All credit to Williams for diversifying away from their core business in a relevent way.
Funny though to see this British Company tie up with Jerry. IIRC, didn't Frank and Patrick arrange for a Spitfire to complete victory rolls on front of the BMW brass when they signed the F1 engine deal? Brilliant, but I guess they didn't do this again in front of the Porsche people...
Funny though to see this British Company tie up with Jerry. IIRC, didn't Frank and Patrick arrange for a Spitfire to complete victory rolls on front of the BMW brass when they signed the F1 engine deal? Brilliant, but I guess they didn't do this again in front of the Porsche people...
Graham E said:
If it had the majority of it's mass at a radius of 10-15 cm....rough need of kinetic energy to offer 120 kW for 8 seconds - at 40k RPM, I'm guessing it's not as scarily high as you'd think!
been a decade since i did maffs but i recon 7kg ,given your spec above, holds enough total kinetic energy. im more interested in the gyroscopic progression; when the car wants to lean left or right the gyro will make it pitch backwards or forwards depending which way you turn... wierd! Graham E said:
kingb said:
Im not totally sure i want a heavy fly wheel spinning at 40,000rpm sitting next to me instead of a passenger seat. Sounds scary. Im sure ive seen pictures of where someone has attempted t0 lighten there flywheel which has just resulted in it coming loose and shooting straight through the bonnet.
nice to try something new but sounds scary to me
It's not that scary. I sell centrifuges that spin at 100,000 RPM, and are safe with just 30 cm maximum movement in the event of a total failure. It would be quite easy to reduce this distance by bolting the machine to the floor - and in the porker, the flywheel assembly will be very firmly fixed to the car. Obviously flywheels in engines aren't protected by guard rings, as they only have the engine bay to damage - anything in the passenger area will no doubt have centrifuge style guard rings round it to safeguard the driver.nice to try something new but sounds scary to me
It also doesn't have to weigh all that much - at just 4,800 RPM, with a radius of 10 centimetres, a 750 gram bit of metal has a weight of 3 tonnes. Presuming the flywheel is about the size of a dinner plate (conservative), it would have a radius of 15cm. If it had the majority of it's mass at a radius of 10-15 cm, then if had a mass of just 15kg, you've got 60 tonnes rotating. It is ages since I did physics, but I bet a cleverer man could tell you the rough need of kinetic energy to offer 120 kW for 8 seconds - at 40k RPM, I'm guessing it's not as scarily high as you'd think!
Edit: That's taking into account that everything is 100% efficient, which it isn't, so in actual fact it has a fair bit more enrgy than that.
Edited by intrepid44 on Thursday 11th February 23:24
Mr Gear said:
What use is a flywheel unless it is heavy like a battery? I'd be interested to know what this thing weighs.
I'm a big fan of hybrid tech, but I think they are barking up the wrong tree with flywheels, especially since I can't see how they would translate onto a road car. On a race track with regular corners, it makes more sense.
You can wang the energy in really fast. Perfect for the way most people drive and brake on the road.I'm a big fan of hybrid tech, but I think they are barking up the wrong tree with flywheels, especially since I can't see how they would translate onto a road car. On a race track with regular corners, it makes more sense.
intrepid44 said:
Well the enrgy equivelent of 120kW for 8 seconds is 1MJ of energy which is a lot
there's 3000MJ of petrol in the tank and aircraft turbines weigh hundreds of kg and do 10,000+ rpm. no reason it can't be perfectly safe; its not some bloke in a shed lathing down an old flywheel till it looks about right 
I have read on another site that the system weighs.......wait for it......120Kg.....if true thats farkin heavy for such a 120KW hybrid system, thats about half the power to weight ratio of the F1 KERS systems last year, F1 KERS was 30Kg for 60KW I think.
Edited by knighty on Friday 12th February 10:05
sad61t said:
Flywheels do not have to be particularly heavy - the "circumferential speed" is far more significant. Remember E=mc² -
Not sure that equation is quite applicable at these speedsThe relativistic mass would remain as near to the rest mass such that you can't really claim that the mass of the flywheel is not significant to the energy stored
intrepid44 said:
Graham E said:
kingb said:
Im not totally sure i want a heavy fly wheel spinning at 40,000rpm sitting next to me instead of a passenger seat. Sounds scary. Im sure ive seen pictures of where someone has attempted t0 lighten there flywheel which has just resulted in it coming loose and shooting straight through the bonnet.
nice to try something new but sounds scary to me
It's not that scary. I sell centrifuges that spin at 100,000 RPM, and are safe with just 30 cm maximum movement in the event of a total failure. It would be quite easy to reduce this distance by bolting the machine to the floor - and in the porker, the flywheel assembly will be very firmly fixed to the car. Obviously flywheels in engines aren't protected by guard rings, as they only have the engine bay to damage - anything in the passenger area will no doubt have centrifuge style guard rings round it to safeguard the driver.nice to try something new but sounds scary to me
It also doesn't have to weigh all that much - at just 4,800 RPM, with a radius of 10 centimetres, a 750 gram bit of metal has a weight of 3 tonnes. Presuming the flywheel is about the size of a dinner plate (conservative), it would have a radius of 15cm. If it had the majority of it's mass at a radius of 10-15 cm, then if had a mass of just 15kg, you've got 60 tonnes rotating. It is ages since I did physics, but I bet a cleverer man could tell you the rough need of kinetic energy to offer 120 kW for 8 seconds - at 40k RPM, I'm guessing it's not as scarily high as you'd think!
Edit: That's taking into account that everything is 100% efficient, which it isn't, so in actual fact it has a fair bit more enrgy than that.
Edited by intrepid44 on Thursday 11th February 23:24
sad61t said:
intrepid44 said:
Graham E said:
kingb said:
Im not totally sure i want a heavy fly wheel spinning at 40,000rpm sitting next to me instead of a passenger seat. Sounds scary. Im sure ive seen pictures of where someone has attempted t0 lighten there flywheel which has just resulted in it coming loose and shooting straight through the bonnet.
nice to try something new but sounds scary to me
It's not that scary. I sell centrifuges that spin at 100,000 RPM, and are safe with just 30 cm maximum movement in the event of a total failure. It would be quite easy to reduce this distance by bolting the machine to the floor - and in the porker, the flywheel assembly will be very firmly fixed to the car. Obviously flywheels in engines aren't protected by guard rings, as they only have the engine bay to damage - anything in the passenger area will no doubt have centrifuge style guard rings round it to safeguard the driver.nice to try something new but sounds scary to me
It also doesn't have to weigh all that much - at just 4,800 RPM, with a radius of 10 centimetres, a 750 gram bit of metal has a weight of 3 tonnes. Presuming the flywheel is about the size of a dinner plate (conservative), it would have a radius of 15cm. If it had the majority of it's mass at a radius of 10-15 cm, then if had a mass of just 15kg, you've got 60 tonnes rotating. It is ages since I did physics, but I bet a cleverer man could tell you the rough need of kinetic energy to offer 120 kW for 8 seconds - at 40k RPM, I'm guessing it's not as scarily high as you'd think!
Edit: That's taking into account that everything is 100% efficient, which it isn't, so in actual fact it has a fair bit more enrgy than that.
Edited by intrepid44 on Thursday 11th February 23:24
ian964 said:
lusopiston said:
Can we consider the BBS wheels the modern borrani wire wheels? They look awesome in all racing cars! I like hybrids, they keep the thundering flat-six noise while adding a dash of eco stuff in it to please everyone... :-)
The wheels for the GT3-R are actually made by Rays rather than BBS, I assume this has the same wheels as the standard GT3-R.
I've just quickly read through what everyone's been posting, so sorry if I am repeating anything, or got the wrong end of the stick, but I couple of points have jumped out at me:
1. How the Flywheel is mounted - it looks to me from the pictures that the flywheel is orientated with it spinning axis on the z-axis (i.e. the flywheel is horizontal). What it not be better for gyroscopic effects that the flywheel is spinning on the same plane as the wheels, spinning the opposite way to the wheels?
2. This may seem a bit of a pointless comparison, but can put this whole energy stored into perspective - 1MJ is about 240kCal. There's 284kCal in a single Mars bar. Comparisons can be made to anything, they will have thought of everything they can to keep it safe and to be able to dissipate the energy safely if there's a failure.
Anyway, the use of KERS is nice to see in cars, and it definitely helps with packaging to be in a GT car rather than in F1. It's a shame that they didn't implement a full Mechanical KERS system, but I guess that would have been due to packaging and weight distribution as well.
1. How the Flywheel is mounted - it looks to me from the pictures that the flywheel is orientated with it spinning axis on the z-axis (i.e. the flywheel is horizontal). What it not be better for gyroscopic effects that the flywheel is spinning on the same plane as the wheels, spinning the opposite way to the wheels?
2. This may seem a bit of a pointless comparison, but can put this whole energy stored into perspective - 1MJ is about 240kCal. There's 284kCal in a single Mars bar.
Comparisons can be made to anything, they will have thought of everything they can to keep it safe and to be able to dissipate the energy safely if there's a failure. Anyway, the use of KERS is nice to see in cars, and it definitely helps with packaging to be in a GT car rather than in F1. It's a shame that they didn't implement a full Mechanical KERS system, but I guess that would have been due to packaging and weight distribution as well.
Edited by midzt on Sunday 14th February 16:03
Edited by midzt on Sunday 14th February 16:07
midzt said:
2. This may seem a bit of a pointless comparison, but can put this whole energy stored into perspective - 1MJ is about 240kCal. There's 284kCal in a single Mars bar. Comparisons can be made to anything, they will have thought of everything they can to keep it safe and to be able to dissipate the energy safely if there's a failure.
...or 1/32th of a litre of petrol. Which is a bit more significant. Comparisons can be made to anything, they will have thought of everything they can to keep it safe and to be able to dissipate the energy safely if there's a failure. midzt said:
I've just quickly read through what everyone's been posting, so sorry if I am repeating anything, or got the wrong end of the stick, but I couple of points have jumped out at me:
1. How the Flywheel is mounted - it looks to me from the pictures that the flywheel is orientated with it spinning axis on the z-axis (i.e. the flywheel is horizontal). What it not be better for gyroscopic effects that the flywheel is spinning on the same plane as the wheels, spinning the opposite way to the wheels?
On that plane would provide resistance to the car turning and rotating around its own Z axis, totally not what you want. On the Z - axis is will help to control pitching and roll. Of coure the problem will be with how fast the thing is turning during a corner, so essentially you have a car with variable chassis dynamics.1. How the Flywheel is mounted - it looks to me from the pictures that the flywheel is orientated with it spinning axis on the z-axis (i.e. the flywheel is horizontal). What it not be better for gyroscopic effects that the flywheel is spinning on the same plane as the wheels, spinning the opposite way to the wheels?
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