Good news for panamera fans looking for a bargain!

Good news for panamera fans looking for a bargain!

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Discussion

bcnrml

2,107 posts

209 months

Wednesday 13th October 2010
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yellowgriff said:
A very good friend of mine purchase a supercharged Range Rover & PX it back in after 9 month and lost 45K... He didnt even flinch,
People who buy 50K porsche and loose 8 to 10k in a year, people who drive a Ford focus cant work that out,
People who drink 700 bottles of bubble or put the car down as an experience or tax loss,
But that's not the point of this thread is it? Henry's also missed the original point of the title - Panameras as bargains.

Dropping 45k after nine months is nothing for the right person. Someone I know in Texas bought an S63 as a weekend toy as she felt it better to spend some of her excess money that way (every year, she does this now) instead of handing over the same (or more) to the tax authorities.

She wasn't looking for a bargain. But she won't touch the Panamera either. That's another of my points.

SFO

5,162 posts

182 months

Wednesday 13th October 2010
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bcnrml said:
Someone I know in Texas bought an S63 as a weekend toy as she felt it better to spend some of her excess money that way (every year, she does this now) instead of handing over the same (or more) to the tax authorities.
surely income tax is based on your gross income, not how much you have left after you have spent your gross income.

bcnrml

2,107 posts

209 months

Wednesday 13th October 2010
quotequote all
SFO said:
bcnrml said:
Someone I know in Texas bought an S63 as a weekend toy as she felt it better to spend some of her excess money that way (every year, she does this now) instead of handing over the same (or more) to the tax authorities.
surely income tax is based on your gross income, not how much you have left after you have spent your gross income.
Are you familiar with US IRS rules? I'm not (as much as she is).

She's an expert on this. It is her business to advise others on this, and since that's how she's made her fortune, who am I to argue?

She's also recently bought an ailing business as a tax write off knowing she can extract more value out of it in a way the previous owners didn't (or couldn't), selling it on at a profit (thereby raising another challenge for her profits and personal income and which toys to buy next).

Nice life. But no Panamera. smile

Edited by bcnrml on Wednesday 13th October 20:41

Henry-F

4,791 posts

244 months

Wednesday 13th October 2010
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The thread started by saying prices are coming down, I took that to mean look what a crap car it is.

Thinking 25,000 vehicles world wide is a large number sums up what I'm trying to say. Perspective. That's 1 car for every quarter of a million people, give or take.

Porsche never intended the Panamera to be a limo, it's for private owners who want a Gt car with a bit of space in the back but which still knows how to hustle along.

Other countries don't suit cars like a 911GT3 RS. Roads that are rougher than a badger's arse put paid to that. There are also people who feel that a car like a GT3 is too impractical for them. A Panamera works for them. I don't think there's a sense of Panameras robbing sales from the 911, more selling to an audience who were not looking for a 911 at the time.

Henry smile

bcnrml

2,107 posts

209 months

Wednesday 13th October 2010
quotequote all
Henry-F said:
The thread started by saying prices are coming down, I took that to mean look what a crap car it is.

Thinking 25,000 vehicles world wide is a large number sums up what I'm trying to say. Perspective. That's 1 car for every quarter of a million people, give or take.

Porsche never intended the Panamera to be a limo, it's for private owners who want a Gt car with a bit of space in the back but which still knows how to hustle along.

Other countries don't suit cars like a 911GT3 RS. Roads that are rougher than a badger's arse put paid to that. There are also people who feel that a car like a GT3 is too impractical for them. A Panamera works for them. I don't think there's a sense of Panameras robbing sales from the 911, more selling to an audience who were not looking for a 911 at the time.

Henry smile
Actually, Porsche is so concerned that Panameras are substantially outselling 911s in China that they're planning to invest in new ways to get the Chinese to buy 911s. They'd sold circa 250 for all of 2010, IIRC. I think the UK sold more 911s in one month this year alone!

Also, IIRC, the Panamera has cannibalised 997 sales in the US, especially for the 4S versions. Cayennes also took a hit (but rebounded thanks to that new variant). 911 sales are still below target - likely because of the Panamera.

Finally, the Panamera has (IIRC) been marketed as an alternative sports limo to ferry the well-heeled and well to do, even minor VIPs from point to point in, say places like New York and its environs. In that respect, it'll easily beat the Lincoln Town Cars and such variants. It might not beat Merc's S class which is still the benchmark for such in the US. And the same is true (benchmark, that is) in status symbol conscious China, where the average Li won't recognise the porker badge, but will always recognise the brand represented by the three point star. smile

There we have it.

Off to quaff something half decent now, so it's over and out for me on this thread. Cordial saludos to you all byebye

Edited by bcnrml on Wednesday 13th October 22:21

Henry-F

4,791 posts

244 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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Shock horror. Chinese struggling to grasp and embrace the 911.

As the Chinese themselves tell me. If it's got 4 legs we eat it, other than a chair. If it's got 2 legs we eat it, other than a human. If it's got wings we eat it, other than an aeroplane.

To a Chinese person, even a wealthy Chinese person a car is still seen as a practical object and how ever you view it a 911 is never going to be as practical as a large saloon car, hence the success of the Mercedes and so on. You need to see a car from the perspective of a nation for whom private car ownership is still a relatively new concept.

The 911 is viewed in very much the same way we would view an Arial Atom. A lovely thing but a bit of an oddball and with limited practical appeal.

Henry smile

bcnrml

2,107 posts

209 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
quotequote all
Henry-F said:
Shock horror. Chinese struggling to grasp and embrace the 911.

As the Chinese themselves tell me. If it's got 4 legs we eat it, other than a chair. If it's got 2 legs we eat it, other than a human. If it's got wings we eat it, other than an aeroplane.

To a Chinese person, even a wealthy Chinese person a car is still seen as a practical object and how ever you view it a 911 is never going to be as practical as a large saloon car, hence the success of the Mercedes and so on. You need to see a car from the perspective of a nation for whom private car ownership is still a relatively new concept.

The 911 is viewed in very much the same way we would view an Arial Atom. A lovely thing but a bit of an oddball and with limited practical appeal.

Henry smile
Sounds like you should be advising Porsche (not me - I'm not trying to sell them 911s, y'see). Have you emailed your post to them? smile They are the "you" in your statements above, aren't they?


Couldn't resist, Henry. You've moved a long way on from your thread titled "The day the Porsche brand died". Good for you! wink

I'll really head off now. No offence meant. byebye

Soovy

35,829 posts

270 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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TVR Moneypit said:
sportsandclassic said:
Vroomer said:
sportsandclassic said:
A friend of mine has bought a £130K panamera turbo and they have put a residual of £33K !
After how many years?
3years
yikes
yikes

Henry's right though. £100k is nothing to a LOT of people - a holiday.

christer

2,804 posts

250 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
quotequote all
bcnrml said:
Also, IIRC, the Panamera has cannibalised 997 sales in the US, especially for the 4S versions. Cayennes also took a hit (but rebounded thanks to that new variant). 911 sales are still below target - likely because of the Panamera.

Finally, the Panamera has (IIRC) been marketed as an alternative sports limo to ferry the well-heeled and well to do, even minor VIPs from point to point in, say places like New York and its environs. In that respect, it'll easily beat the Lincoln Town Cars and such variants. It might not beat Merc's S class which is still the benchmark for such in the US. And the same is true (benchmark, that is) in status symbol conscious China, where the average Li won't recognise the porker badge, but will always recognise the brand represented by the three point star. smile

There we have it.

Off to quaff something half decent now, so it's over and out for me on this thread. Cordial saludos to you all byebye

Edited by bcnrml on Wednesday 13th October 22:21
At the end of the day, I think it is very difficult for anyone (including Porsche) to say with any reasonable probability of success and accuracy that 911 sales have dropped due to the Panamera. There can be a lot of factors - not the least of which might be also attributed to "alleged" (;)) engine problems. It could also be that the 911 is just getting too common and people may be starting to prefer something different. It could be that the 911 is such a quality product that lasts for so long that people are not buying as many new anymore. The point is that we cannot know the reasons, all we know for sure is that people are buying less.

The main aim of a company is to chase "infinte growth" and my opinion is that I really don't think Porsche care too much where it comes from (model) as long as they grow. If they were that worried about the 911 range they wouldn't have produced so many to avoid a glut perhaps - but the main focus is keeping on growing at all costs - even if many thousands of owners are worried about the reliability of their 911 and many more are not buying one because of that worry. A company like that is not goig to care too much where the growth comes from. All imho.

I appreciate that you have assumed certain "facts" as have I to make a point - and there are millions of different factors that cannot be discussed in our lifetimes on this subject - my main point is to avoid the "narrative" in what we hear and then "know". I always laugh when I read Bloomberg reporting that "Asian stocks rose today on earnings potential" but I alwaus prefer to consider the "factual" version which is "Asian stocks rose today due to the fact that on balance more money was spent buying stocks than selling" - and then take it from theresmile

christer

2,804 posts

250 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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bcnrml said:
Are you familiar with US IRS rules? I'm not (as much as she is).

Edited by bcnrml on Wednesday 13th October 20:41
I wish we had a similar system here so that I can spend everything I earn to avoid paying tax. However, I am sure it is not that simple (ask Wesley Snipes) though so I think your friend is exploiting some loopholes. I think this should be appaluded and that we all do the same. After all, I think the UK government has spent around 22.6% of the tax I have paid in the last 8 years or so on going to war with other countries without my consent. I do realise that as a petroleum-based civilisation, security of supply is key for longer term survivial but couldn't they have done it cheaper? I would certainly suggest that it is in everyone's interest to avoid tax where possible so that we can move towards a different system - after all it is we who have this decision within our power. The elected government should be an extension of our wants and needs after all - and if they act against my will we have a certain conflict of interestsmile

(Obviously as I am a sympathetic and caring person I would point out that if your friend is doing things that deliberately make it equally worse for someone else (who may be a fellow taxpaying slave) then I am not sure my support would be unequivocalsmile)

Henry-F

4,791 posts

244 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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Is it just me or when people spout out relative sales figures for specific models do you not question how they can infer a sinister undertone without putting those figures into context ?

Cayenne sales were falling. I don't suppose the fact a new model was on the way had any bearing on that?

Current 911 sales are a little down. Again, is there any chance people are holding out for the new model?

Panamera has just been launched. Could that possibly account for healthy numbers?

Just a wild stab in the dark here.

Clearly the Panamera as a brand new model, it's not a re-hash of an existing model, is going to take the world by storm and sell in droves compared to existing cars.
The fact is a new model comes out and people think "I fancy one of those". There then follows 2 or 3 years where everyone gets their act together and buys one. Some people pre-order, others wait until they’ve seen one in the flesh, some have to juggle finances, others just write out a cheque. There are even a raft of early buyers who rush in hoping to earn a crust from selling cars for more money than list price.
Once purchased people are unlikely to change it every year, they'll wait until the new model comes out and have a change providing that model change comes within 3-4 years at which time new car person starts to get itchy feet because their motor is starting to look and feel a bit second hand and anyway they fancy a change and the buzz that comes from buying a shiny new toy.
A simple country boy’s take on things. I’m sure someone in a suit will be able to fill in the missing details smile

Keep smiling

Henry smile

Helen Goff

800 posts

238 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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well i got me one and i love it. i opted for the 4S as i feel the turbo was too expensive and i really didn't need that much power for towing.

i do most of my driving on country roads and have never found the size of the thing a problem. infact for towing it's an advantage. it a stupidly easy car to drive.

BUT if it had to be my only Porsche then i'm not sure i'd have got it.

Edited by Helen Goff on Thursday 14th October 13:18

S1MMA

2,378 posts

218 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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There's plenty of them here in dubai also chaps, cheap fuel, zero tax, large families = Panamera city! I think people are replacing their Cayannes for a Panamera. I saw a young local girl (mid 20s) in a nice Pan 4S, her maid got out of the back with her kid in tow, and she swanned off to do some shopping. My mouth was fairly wide open, so I conciously made an effort to close it.

hornetrider

63,161 posts

204 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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How do Panamera residuals compare to 997/987? Unfavourable? I'd have though they are similar to Cayenne (ie quite poor).

All speculation based on list price vs desirability mind.

S1MMA

2,378 posts

218 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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hornetrider said:
How do Panamera residuals compare to 997/987? Unfavourable? I'd have though they are similar to Cayenne (ie quite poor).

All speculation based on list price vs desirability mind.
987/997 have much better residuals. Panamera will be similar to a Cayanne, or any other german top end barge

Henry-F

4,791 posts

244 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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Just a thought for the Chinese market, many high end cars are company purchases used to ferry top execs around. I wonder if there might not be a tax benefit to that sort of purchase over a private owned / purchased. I shall ask my people over there !

Henry smile

Robbo66

3,828 posts

232 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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Henry-F said:
Let's put the Panamera into perspective chaps. It's for people who aren't short of a few quid. Would you spend £50k plus renting a boat for the weekend, would you spend £500 on a bottle of wine in a restaurant or £20 a drink for a round with some mates, £5,000 on an outfit for the missus, £100k on a kitchen or £6,000 a person to fly to New York.

People do these things every day. When it's on in January take yourself off to Excel for the day and have a wander round the boat show. Every boat there is owned by someone by the end of the show (except for that bloody ugly covered in flybridge thing), and they've taken orders for more besides.

If you have to debate the cost of ownership then you cant afford one. It's not like an old 911 when providing you can afford one then you can afford one. With a Panamera, Bentley, Merc, BMW and so on you have to be able to not only afford to buy one but to live with the fact that you can't cash out and see most of your money back. Ownership is going to cost you. But it's part of your lifestyle and you use those things to justify all the hard work you put in.

You already have a lovely house, have the weekly shopping bills covered and take care of the raft of bills which make up modern life. This is how you choose to spend the spare money that's left over.

Panameras are made in such small numbers that you only need to find a few customers every year.

Henry smile
Believe me, you will not find 'proper' or 'old money' stepping anywhere near Panamera or the Cayenne.
They will continue to purchase Subaru Foresters or Defenders, classifying the above as way too 'nouveau riche'.
Panemara/cayenne man will not understand this, wishing to 'show' his perceived wealth and ignore the critical comments regarding it's 'styling'. He will be desperately trying to convince himself this is indeed a 'good looking car', and the salesman will gladly confirm this.
No, I believe these cars are purchased almost on a whim, latest thing etc.....then they realise that although hugely accomplished....it is aesthetically very, very challenged.
It doesn't matter how hard you work or how much you earn.....the Panemera and Cayenne prove that taste and style cannot be 'leased' over 36 months.

Edited by Robbo66 on Thursday 14th October 13:57

christer

2,804 posts

250 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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Robbo66 said:
It doesn't matter how hard you work or how much you earn.....there is always someone willing to ram their opinion down others' necks.......
Edited by Robbo66 on Thursday 14th October 13:57

Henry-F

4,791 posts

244 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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What is "proper" or "old money" when it's at home ?

If you mean people living in a stately home or who wear yellow / red cords then possibly not. But for the rest of us money is money.

I think there are a good number of cars which you might class as unsuitable to old money. BMW X series, Cayenne, Merc M series in fact any 4 by 4 other than the Range Rover, any Lamborghini, possibly any Ferrari (the new stuff is a bit too flash), in fact pretty much the entire new car market bar possibly Bentley (although that bally GT has got in with the wrong sort).

I think you're trying too hard to pigeon hole the Panamera. You may not like it but the fact is it's a bloody good car to drive. This isn't some flash Harry that's all mouth and no trousers. It is first and foremost a superb car. If form has had to give way to function somewhere along the line be it to preserve occupant comfort, reduce production costs or improve performance then so be it. But it does work. I know !

Many people like the idea of buying into the Porsche brand but simply can't live with a 911 on a day to day basis. The Cayenne offered a solution but there's no getting away from the fact that it's a large 4 by 4. If you wanted a more traditional car into which the mother in law fitted or you could take the boys on a golfing weekend then Porsche wasn't for you. Now it is.

Not to worry for the rest of us. Porsche is still producing the 911 in it's various guises and has even got a new hyper car on line so the Panamera isn't watering down the brand in that department.

Henry smile

hornetrider

63,161 posts

204 months

Thursday 14th October 2010
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I'm sure it's a fabulous car - however the fact it hit every branch on the way down does nothing for it's residuals. If it was a looker it would be up there with the 911.

I think that's the point of this thread.